Captain America vs. Wolverine

Originally posted by Alfheim
Bring it.

consider it brought...

Originally posted by Alfheim
That dont change a damn thing. Look at what happened Caps head was really close to Wolverines head, if he hadnt tried to reason with Wolverine that would not have happened. So your trying to tell me its a suprise that Wolverine head buttted him , something which would not have happened if he was not in that position..

No I'm saying that it's ridiculous to assume that wolverine wouldn't have got a headbutt in that position that they were in.. the only way you COULD argue it wasn't going to happen was if you thought cap was surprised by it.. and again you don't seem to understand.. cap's blows... yeah, NOT WORKING... hence the whole "have to change combat tactics". Cap tried brute force it didn't work, so he tried a new tactic.

And you can't just discard the move your character makes.. example:"Well if doomsday didn't go to hit superman that final time superman wouldn't have killed him, that's the only reasons supes did".. uhhh duuuh...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Looking at Cap skills and feats theres is actually nothing to say that Cap cant knock out Wolverine.

except that he TRIED.. he couldn't do it, he tried in their second fight, and he tried in origins, both times he failed. Wolverine regularly takes heavier shots than that with a smile... the chances of cap successful here: LOW.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ...if cap was more pissed off.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cap was able to hurt Wolverine without the sword.

Originally posted by Alfheim
With a sword in his hand and a blood clot in his leg he would he would fought strategically, and theres is nothing in Wolverine showings to show that he would be able to dodge long enough with nothing to shield him since his claws were disabled.

NONSENSE:
In the first wolverine miniseries issue 3 or 4 wolverine engages in combat with a dozen hand ninjas, he's never once touched.
In MCP 64 wolverine pulls a daredevil stunt bouncing all over the place while ninjas are all around him trying to get him, none succeed in touching him.
In marvel team up wolverine/spiderman classic, wolverine fights 100 x sheild agents who are armed with lazers, not only does he begin to beat them back, but he's totally unscathed in the process...
In THAT VERY ARC wolverine dodges ALL of nuke's ammo, dodges MULTIPLE optic blasts, and dodges MORE gunfire back before encountering OR.
In his most recent fight he's shown sidestepping sword play from silver samurai for god's sake.
and finally in origins and endings wolverine shows that his last test was a ceremony in which multiple assailants began to attack him one at a time and then en'masse, these guys are all uber skilled, and wolverine knows every one of them can kill him with one blow, they never let up... they also never touch wolverine.
and he wouldn't have to dodge long, it didn't take much for the clot to effect cap.
all that aside. again wolverine wouldn't even have to dodge, all he'd have to do is run... cap couldn't run after him or he'd "clot up".

and again cap wouldn't even have that sword to begin with if he hadn't sneak attacked logan at the start.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cap would also aim for...................................when he made his legs go numb.

he had his sheild when he did that to spidey, he sacrificed his shield by this point, he's also got about 100 lightyears experience over spidey in h2h, NOT WOLVERINE.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Stamping at full force on a robots head takes alot of effort

Originally posted by Alfheim
AND he got ................than it does punching somebody, and it takes less effort to damage with a sword than it does with your fists.

No getting punched makes you dizzy, lightheaded.
heartreat increases through activity... it's a lot more active swinging away at somebody than taking a punch of punches to the head.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cmon man use some common sense..

uhhh dude.. no offense but coming from a guy who just said..

Originally posted by Alfheim
Getting punched to the ground probably gets your heart racing more than it does punching somebody,

I'm not even going to respond to that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
When I say he wasnt there to ...................if his objective was to beat him up he would not have stopped fighting until he was unconscious.

uh.. no... again... cap stopped fighting cause wolverine stopped fighting, wolverine stopped fighting because (read above)...

Originally posted by Alfheim
No he would not have dodged. Look how many times Wolverine got connected by Cap before Cap got the sword. Now how is he going to defend himself now that he doesnt have the claws to block the sword?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well for starter pounding down on somebody heads takes alot of effort, it .................been able to get far at all.

cap stomped on nuke ONCE and then got railed.. there was not much effort WHATSOEVER there... after that the simple strain of picking his body up (not wolverine's punches) is what dropped him.. and again when cap entered the fray he got in two punches and again dropped to the clot, so theoretically he had 3 punches or swings in him left... he wasn't winning that scenario...
cap used A LOT MORE than just bare hands.. but we've already covered that.
cap wouldn't have done shit with that sword.. he tried to hit logan with it remember? he missed.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Hes an expert startegist he would have used different tactics. If he knock out the Wrecker he can knock out Wolverine. Alot can happen in 20 seconds, especially for somebody who can see bullets (im talking about cap). OH yeah did you see what The Wrecker did to Wolverine?

wait, when did cap ever knock out the wrecker? I've seen him drop thunderball, but wrecker? when?

and I don't think you get it, cap can't knock wolverine out when he's in good health, hell he tried to knock wolverine out after wolverine went after hellion... guess what... CLOT.

and yeah wrecker hit logan once and then tossed him a mile into the air with relatively NO EFFECT.. wolverine came right back and skewered the shit outa him. 😕

Originally posted by Alfheim
Scans.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I read..................beat DDs ass, but Cap cant beat up hand ninjas. PIS..

when did sheild state that cap can take luke cage or daredevil?
ever?
how would they know?
I''m only asking because the last time I saw shield files on these characters luke cage, dd and cap were all at the SAME LEVEL... 8.. what was wolverine at you ask? 9 😄
cap had trouble getting used to their fighting style.. he hasn't studied it like he has spiderman's... wolverine, and dd, they practically live with the hand.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Secret Wars is when both the heroes and villains were taken to a planet to fight each other. Saying Wolverine doesnt lead is a cop out. If its a matter of life and death and Wolverine was the best strategist you can beat your bottom dollar Wolverine would be leading. Cap lead the Xmen and all the other heroes. Damn even in House of M people were talking about Cap not Wolverine.

wolverine not being a leader is a cop out?

😂
ooooor it COULD just be part of his character.. like it's been.. for years...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore Bruce Lee said that when you have two fighters that are equalled matched the one with the best strategy would win. Cap is the better strategist.

yup except, these two are FAR from equally matched...

Originally posted by Alfheim
WEll you said that Cap could disable Wolverines claws for 20 seconds if it was working properly. Logic means he can probably knock him out for 20 sceonds. Under forum rules thats a win, Cap can do alot in 20 seconds. Even if Cap could knock him out for several seconds he could probably **** him up some more to keep him down.

I also said I was being EXTREMELY generous towards cap,

cap ain't knocking logan out in 20 seconds.. he tried.. failed, tried again.. failed.. tried once more.. failed.. why would he succeed where we keep seeing him fail?

Wait, you're using Hand Ninjas? The cannon fodder of the MU?

Dude, what the hell?

Also, to anyone thinking this would be a quick fight, they're mistaken. Though I'm no Wolverine fan, I can't ignore the fact that he can bring the fight, and bring it well.

This fight isn't a stomp in either direction. It's the same as Wolverine vs Slade. Similar fight, close match.

This is a matchup that can go either way in any matter of circumstances.

I personally give Cap the majority in most circumstances, but they're slim wins.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, sorry my friend, but your response to my initial post has got me completely baffled. I still cannot believe the utter disdain you have for an appropriate interpretation of the 'Origins' fight.

1) Wolverine still has a healing ability. Slashed across the chest and he still could get up a second later. [/i]

he got up based on pure toughness.. that had NOTHING to do with healing factor. how do I know? well it's been weeks since that fight happened.. wolverine STILL HASN'T healed the damned cut.

yes he had a healing factor but it was so far below the standard for wolverine it's not even funny.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not only that, but he managed to take on Cyclops and the Hellion. You make it sound like his healing ability is non-existent and Wolverine was fighting with one arm behind his back. Your jaded interpretation borders on the ridiculous. Wolverine was not "severely, omgwtfbbq it's so unfair" handicapped

those are YOUR RIDICULOUS WORDS... not mine... look, it's like this wolverine's healing factor IS one of his attributes.. and it WAS hindered.. it's like if you took iron man and plopped him into a fight with 20% of his power.. of course he's not going to operate at full effeciency... that's all I'm getting at, wolverine wasn't anywhere NEAR peak condition. He had his healing factor, but it was working about 5 times less than the norm.. c'mon he got floored by the butt of a rifle for god's sakes.. that's not the norm for this guy.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You also make it sound like Wolverine just marathon-swam around the world and that Cap fighting him after Wolverine fought Nuke was more "severe omgwtfbbq unfairness." Do you even have 'Origins?' For goodness sake, Nuke got three hits on Wolverine the entire fight. Three. He was utterly schooled with ease and little effort by Wolverine. Then you make it sound like Cap bushwhacked the hell out of Wolverine which enduces more "omgwtfbbqsauce cheating" characterizations from you. Cap tossed his shield at Wolverine's hand to prevent Logan from killing Nuke. That's it. He didn't say... come in from behind and hit him with adamantium lined knuckles repeatedly in the back of the head. You know... that sounds familiar...

He may as well have.. or are you just ignoring the entire ARC of origins and endings?... his healing factor, his stamina are all at an all time nose dive during this period in origins... and you try to imply that I don't own the books??? pffft....
nuke got three hits on logan that did a hell of a lot more damage to wolverine then they EVER otherwise would have, logan also got rocked by that rocked which exploded at his feet, cap's blindsiding wolverine at the beginning of their fight IS AN IMPORTANT part of the fight considering the fact that, THAT'S the ONE AND ONLY reason cap even ends up with the muramasa sword anyways...

the difference between what cap did and what wolverine did? well there's a lot, aside from the fact that cap started it.... PICK ONE.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
2) You and others consistently characterize Cap as having "lost" his main weapon. He didn't. He sacrificed it to get a solid grip on Wolverine's arms to take away his main weapons, his claws. Now if that isn't strategy and a damn good trade in Cap's favor I don't know what is. Face it. You make it sound like Wolverine took his shield away. Read the captions. Even Wolvie recognizes he was completely set up by the shield toss and lost his claws as a result.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
3) Wolverine utterly cheapshotted the crap out of Cap when Nuke distracted Cap the second time. He hit him three times from behind when Cap wasn't looking. Twice in the head. You argue with the others like you understand fighting. Have you ever been punched in the back of the head? Let me tell you something, I don't care who it is, one punch to the back of the head and that's it, you get stars. I've been in serious fights before. And let me tell you, I can be a scrapper... but one time I got punched in the back of the head and that was it. One time. It was over. There's nothing like it. If you've ever been punched or hit in the back of the head, you'd know it too. Cap got hit in the back of the head with adamantium knuckles twice. I can't believe he wasn't utterly knocked out.

indeed it was a good showing...
(yeah i've been hit in the back of the head in a couple of fights.. not fun)...

but let's not ignore that cap was practically making a day of cheap shotting logan...

one god cheap shot deserves another in this case..

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
4) Cap ended the fight with a swing of the blade and his forced march. There is no other interpretation. Wolverine couldn't dodge Cap's fists, what makes you think he could dodge sword swings? [B]

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[B]P.S. I second King Kam's suggestion, jinzin. It's fine if you want to quote us in your retorts, but you don't have to quote a two paragraph argument, cut up the sentences in half and reply it piecemeal in 13 different responses. It doesn't help. All it does is give the illusion that you tackled every point we made... when in reality, all you're doing is skipping over sentences selectively and unnecessarily elongating the size of your post with utter blank space.

i'm not going to change my method of debate just because you don't like it... I may not have to reply in such fasion, but I like to nonetheless.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Wait, you're using Hand Ninjas? The cannon fodder of the MU?

Dude, what the hell?

they're not cannon fodder for cap... 😂

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Also, to anyone thinking this would be a quick fight, they're mistaken. Though I'm no Wolverine fan, I can't ignore the fact that he can bring the fight, and bring it well.

This fight isn't a stomp in either direction. It's the same as Wolverine vs Slade. Similar fight, close match.

This is a matchup that can go either way in any matter of circumstances.

I personally give Cap the majority in most circumstances, but they're slim wins.

Originally posted by jinzin
they're not cannon fodder for cap... 😂

Meh. Everyone has low showings. Look at Wolverine and the Elk. 😛

Originally posted by jinzin
I don't see how but you're entitled to your opinions I guess.

Well, if you look at the matchup, it's always gonna be close, especially if it's Cap going no holds barred. They're both very skilled, both very agile, both very durable, both tenacious fighters.

Most people who look at Wolverine and shut out the hype usually see him as a shorter Captain America with claws and a healing factor.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Meh. Everyone has low showings. Look at Wolverine and the Elk. 😛

is that even a low showing? I mean conclusively it doesn't appear as if wolverine was even koed to be honest..... 😕

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Well, if you look at the matchup, it's always gonna be close, especially if it's Cap going no holds barred. They're both very skilled, both very agile, both very durable, both tenacious fighters.

Most people who look at Wolverine and shut out the hype usually see him as a shorter Captain America with claws and a healing factor.

for me it's just the fact that cap has to work a lot harder to damage logan than the other way around.. that coupled with the fact that logan has a healing factor that will make up for whatever cap dishes out and that cap's injuries will mass up on him.. well.. that settles it for me...

strength, speed, reflexes, and skill all seem to be near on par with eachother... so it just becomes a matter of who can dish more and who can take more.. I gotta believe that's wolverine here.

Originally posted by jinzin
for me it's just the fact that cap has to work a lot harder to damage logan than the other way around.. that coupled with the fact that logan has a healing factor that will make up for whatever cap dishes out and that cap's injuries will mass up on him.. well.. that settles it for me...

strength, speed, reflexes, and skill all seem to be near on par with eachother... so it just becomes a matter of who can dish more and who can take more.. I gotta believe that's wolverine here.

Doesn't really seem that way for me. Cap's had no problems dishing out the pain to people with extreme durability before. Look at his fights with Hyde, USAgent (before and after his two powerups), Rhino, etc. Even Hulk was still hurting a while after fighting Cap (where Cap had chucked him during the Professor Hulk era, and another time post-Onslaught)

Both can dish out the pain very well, but in different ways. Cap's method is through pressure points and shield usage, while Wolvie has the claws.

Between you and I, it's essentially gonna come down to our own opinion, because I doubt we can sway the other's opinion on who takes the majority.

We can both probably come to the conclusion that it's a very close contest.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Christ, this is like have an argument with a brick wall.

Brickwall: "Spider-man is totally like... I don't know like 100 times faster!"

Srank: "I heard you already Brickwall but look here, Wolverine and Captain America have done all those things right?"

Brickwall: "Yeah, so..."

Srank: "So then he can't much faster if at all."

Brickwall: "Thats crap."

Srank: "Why?"

Brickwall: "Uh... because... just because."

Srank: "That isn't a reason..."

Brickwall: "It's crap because it's crap."

Srank: "..."

Brickwall: "Look here, this Handbook says Spider-man is superhuman, but that Captian America are peak human... See? Do you see?"

Srank: "... So a throw away label in a noncanical Handbook holds more value then the comic book feats them self"

Brickwall: "No.. no... but... those Wolverine speed feats are crap."

Srank: "Why?"

Brickwall: "Because if they weren't crap then Spider-man wouldn't be faster! And everyone knows he's faster so it has to be crap, duh."

Srank: "..."

"They're crap because they're crap". Well said CM, I always look forward to the classic "Just because" Spider-man fan arguement.

pffft BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA... i hadn't seen this...

😂

😂

😂

hysterical

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Thats not going to happen though and it shouldn't have happened there either. Hulk isn't some slow, bumbling brute he is actually quite fast. Spider-man writers like to forget that the Jade Giant has super speed and easily has the reflexes to swat Spider-man out of the air if it wasn;t for his spider-sense. I could understand them showing that the spider-sense allowed Peter to evade the Hulk but it shouldn't have happened like that... unless Parker was fighting a statue or something.

Originally posted by jinzin
consider it brought...

😈

Originally posted by jinzin

No I'm saying that it's ridiculous to assume that wolverine wouldn't have got a headbutt in that position that they were in.. the only way you COULD argue it wasn't going to happen was if you thought cap was surprised by it..

Well in a forum fight would cap try to communicate with Wolverine and get into that dangerous position.

Originally posted by jinzin

and again you don't seem to understand.. cap's blows... yeah, NOT WORKING... hence the whole "have to change combat tactics". Cap tried brute force it didn't work, so he tried a new tactic.

Cap has sent Namor reeling and has floored Namor with blows. If Namor can knock Wolverine out, its not illogical to think that Cap can knock out Wolverine for a good while. Also if Cap can knock out Wolverine its not illogical he can think of way of wounding him like he did in origins.

Furthermore Cap has already knocked out Wolverine, have a look at the cap respect thread. Wolverine was fully healed and had not been awake for days at the time. Cap did sneak up on him but the fact remains he still knocked him out cold.

Originally posted by jinzin

And you can't just discard the move your character makes.. example:"Well if doomsday didn't go to hit superman that final time superman wouldn't have killed him, that's the only reasons supes did".. uhhh duuuh...

Already dealt with this point.

Originally posted by jinzin

except that he TRIED.. he couldn't do it, he tried in their second fight, and he tried in origins, both times he failed. Wolverine regularly takes heavier shots than that with a smile... the chances of cap successful here: LOW.

Already dealt with this point.

Originally posted by jinzin

no, cap stopped fighting because wolverine stoped fighting back, I explained why in my last post so read it.

Thats not the point....thats....not....what...he...was...there....for. In a forum fight would Cap have stopped baecuse Wolverine stopped? No because there is no copter waiting for Cap to frog march Wolverine to.

Originally posted by jinzin

at the cost of his leg... and the loss of his shield....

Dont waste my time. The point is Wolverine is not fast enough to dodge Cap. Wolverine got connected by Cap several times, and one attack Wolverine deflected with his claws..he does not have those anymore. It doesnt matter if he has a cut on aleg he would have lasted long enough to get him. Cap has lost his shield, so your forgetting that Wolverine doesnt have a weapon, in other words he has no defense.

Originally posted by jinzin

NONSENSE:
In the first wolverine miniseries issue 3 or 4 wolverine engages in combat with a dozen hand ninjas, he's never once touched.

LOL and Cap cant do that. DD does this on a regular basis and Cap has beaten DD before. Not only that according to the Civil War report. Cap is enhanced human and DD is Athelete, Cap is ranked highier I have the scans but I cant be bothered to get them now. Also according to shield Cap can take out DD, go look at the Captain respect thread again. Cap have trouble with ninjas is PIS.

Originally posted by jinzin

In MCP 64 wolverine pulls a daredevil stunt bouncing all over the place while ninjas are all around him trying to get him, none succeed in touching him.

We dont use low showings and we dont use high showings either. In general Wolverine does not move like that. Cap has been moving like that for a 100 years, therefore Cap is more agile than him.

Originally posted by jinzin

In marvel team up wolverine/spiderman classic, wolverine fights 100 x sheild agents who are armed with lazers, not only does he begin to beat them back, but he's totally unscathed in the process...
In THAT VERY ARC wolverine dodges ALL of nuke's ammo, dodges MULTIPLE optic blasts, and dodges MORE gunfire back before encountering OR.
In his most recent fight he's shown sidestepping sword play from silver samurai for god's sake.
and finally in origins and endings wolverine shows that his last test was a ceremony in which multiple assailants began to attack him one at a time and then en'masse, these guys are all uber skilled, and wolverine knows every one of them can kill him with one blow, they never let up... they also never touch wolverine.
and he wouldn't have to dodge long, it didn't take much for the clot to effect cap.

None of that is as impressive as dodging multiple lasers in zero gravity. When Wolverine does something like that come back and talk to me.

Originally posted by jinzin

all that aside. again wolverine wouldn't even have to dodge, all he'd have to do is run... cap couldn't run after him or he'd "clot up".

Your not listening Bro he would not have been able to dodge if he was able to dodge why the hell didnt he...er because hes not fast enough.

Originally posted by jinzin

and again cap wouldn't even have that sword to begin with if he hadn't sneak attacked logan at the start.

Maybe.

Originally posted by jinzin

he had his sheild when he did that to spidey, he sacrificed his shield by this point, he's also got about 100 lightyears experience over spidey in h2h, NOT WOLVERINE.

yes but Cap is still a better fighter. Dont bother pulling the hand ninja examples again. Also that was at WW2, since Wolverine is 200 years old there is bound to be a time when he was better than Cap at some point. At any rate the writing sucked, they were worshipping Wolverine and making Cap look like a chump...."My God man have you no decency."......that didnt make Cap look like a total chump?

Originally posted by jinzin

it never ONCE stated that cap was stamping FULL FORCE.... now you're just givin him the benefit of the doubt.

Ok lets think about this. Cap is shown stamping on Nukes head in the panel and it says something like THWAM THWAM THWAM!!!!!! Lets think about this again....your frog marching a dangerous mutant who could heal up at any moment. You get distracted by somebody who pulls on your leg. Due to this distraction Wolverine could either run away or **** you up. What do you do? Do you:

a) Pull your "punches".
b) Stomp the ****** out as quickly and as hard as you can?

Originally posted by jinzin

No getting punched makes you dizzy, lightheaded.
heartreat increases through activity... it's a lot more active swinging away at somebody than taking a punch of punches to the head.

That depends on the situation. The situation was a high stress one. Shock and fear can get your heart racing more than exercise. Thats why fear can make you:

a) Sweat without moving
b) Make your heart race faster than doing any exercise
c)Stress can also give you a heart attack even if you exercise regularly.

First of all like I said it takes less effort to injure with a sword than it does with your fists, if the sword is light. Secondly how fast do you think Caps heart was racing when he said "NO!!!" Im sure you have been in situations like that your heart explodes. Ive done boxing before and getting jumped by a maniac would make my heart race than punching a bag or a person. Futhermore when you do martial arts even if you are using aggression you have to be in a state of relaxation and you have to conserve your energy. When Cap got jumped by Wolverine his heart was probably pounding.

Originally posted by jinzin

uhhh dude.. no offense but coming from a guy who just said..

I'm not even going to respond to that.

Ive already dealt with that. Its not that simple read above.

Originally posted by jinzin

uh.. no... again... cap stopped fighting cause wolverine stopped fighting, wolverine stopped fighting because (read above)...

This is irrelevant. This is the KMC forum. I have already explained this point. You dont stop because the other person has.

Originally posted by jinzin

I just told you.. BY DODGING... captain america does not handle a sword better than silver samurai.. wolverine was dodging ss just fine.

Thats debatable. Spiderman is not an MA expert but if he didnt pull his punches he would kill DD? Why because eventhough he skill level is lower his reflexes are very high. Cap maybe not be as good as the SS in swordplay but he can compensate for it with his speed.

Cap has also done weapons training he used pole fighting against a cosmic cube powered Red Skull, even without the cosmic cube Red Skull is an MA expert. Cap also used a sword to kill him later on, eventhough it was a sneak attack its not unlikely that he is as good with the sword as he is with the pole.

Originally posted by jinzin

and yes he would have dodged... captain america's punches are inconsequential as they don't do damage to wolverine, again, he was doding optic blasts like crazy, he dodges when there's a need for it. there's no need for it. and ummm cap only connected with one punch that wolverine didn't otherwise set him up for before the tendon crushing bit..

So Cap didnt need to be fast enough to crush his tendons? Anyway I have already dealt with this, look above.

Originally posted by jinzin

cap stomped on nuke ONCE and then got railed.. there was not much effort WHATSOEVER there... after that the simple strain of picking his body up (not wolverine's punches) is what dropped him.. and again when cap entered the fray he got in two punches and again dropped to the clot, so theoretically he had 3 punches or swings in him left... he wasn't winning that scenario...
cap used A LOT MORE than just bare hands.. but we've already covered that.
cap wouldn't have done shit with that sword.. he tried to hit logan with it remember? he missed.

Already dealt with this.

Originally posted by jinzin

wait, when did cap ever knock out the wrecker? I've seen him drop thunderball, but wrecker? when?

Ask Marvelprince. Oh yeah what did The Wrecker do to Wolverine? He grabbed his arm and threw him a mile...Wolverine a better fioghter my ***

Originally posted by jinzin

and I don't think you get it, cap can't knock wolverine out when he's in good health, hell he tried to knock wolverine out after wolverine went after hellion... guess what... CLOT.

Already dealt with this. Besides Cap is the smarter figher Wolverind should not have been able to beat him like that.

Originally posted by jinzin

and yeah wrecker hit logan once and then tossed him a mile into the air with relatively NO EFFECT.. wolverine came right back and skewered the shit outa him. 😕

Ok, but that doesnt change the fact that Wrecker was still fast enough to do that. What are you telling me that Wolverine let himself get thrown? This is why Cap is faster and a better fighter than Wolverine he never lets stuff like that happen.

Originally posted by jinzin

you serious? those fights are posted all over this damned forum...

Ive been through the whole Wolverine respect thread I have not seen them.

Originally posted by jinzin

when did sheild state that cap can take luke cage or daredevil?
ever?

Go see the cap respect thread.

Originally posted by jinzin

how would they know?

Its their business to know. Thats like asking how would Tony Stark know how to build an Iron Man suit.

Originally posted by jinzin

I''m only asking because the last time I saw shield files on these characters luke cage, dd and cap were all at the SAME LEVEL... 8.. what was wolverine at you ask? 9 😄
cap had trouble getting used to their fighting style.. he hasn't studied it like he has spiderman's... wolverine, and dd, they practically live with the hand.

Already dealt with this point. Cap knows every martial art, having problems with the hand is PIS, period.

Originally posted by jinzin

wolverine not being a leader is a cop out?

😂
ooooor it COULD just be part of his character.. like it's been.. for years...

*sigh* Bro let me break it down for you again. When the heroes get togther its a matter of life and death. If Wolverine was a better stratgeist than Cap and his comrades lifes were at stake you think he wouldnt step up? Furthermore Cap isnt arrogant if Wolverine was smarter than Cap, Cap would vouch for him. Stop making excuses.

Originally posted by jinzin

yup except, these two are FAR from equally matched...

Cap has better reflexes. Wolverines dodging showings are not as good as Caps. When Wolverine dodges lasers in zero gravity he gets to be as fast as Cap. When Cap starts taking orders from Wolverine than Wolverine gets to be as smart as Cap.

Originally posted by jinzin

I also said I was being EXTREMELY generous towards cap,

cap ain't knocking logan out in 20 seconds.. he tried.. failed, tried again.. failed.. tried once more.. failed.. why would he succeed where we keep seeing him fail?

Already dealt with this point.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin Thats not going to happen though and it shouldn't have happened there either. Hulk isn't some slow, bumbling brute he is actually quite fast. Spider-man writers like to forget that the Jade Giant has super speed and easily has the reflexes to swat Spider-man out of the air if it wasn;t for his spider-sense. I could understand them showing that the spider-sense allowed Peter to evade the Hulk but it shouldn't have happened like that... unless Parker was fighting a statue or something.

Actually, aside from Professor, Hulk is a large, bumbling brute. Though other incarnations showed good running speeds, etc. when did you actually see him hit someone with a huge agility and speed advantage?

Then look at Prof. Hulk. He tagged Quicksilver twice in the same fight, and made it look like he was standing still. That's mostly due to the fact that Prof. Hulk was completely in control.

Also, Spider-Man has always been shown to be extremely quick in his own right, but as always, character is ignored.

(Part of the reason I hate CBR style debates is the fact that you start to read comics for feats, and neglect the character completely)

It's like the difference between Thor and Beta Ray Bill in character. When it comes to battle, Thor is slow, seemingly clumsy, and a complete showoff, whereas Bill brings the pain fast and hard, and gets the job done quick. He hates idle talk.

Now, lets compare Spider-man's character to Wolverine. Wolverine is very much a "bring the pain" type that holds back none, and I mean NONE or his abilities. He's got the reluctance of a drunk girl at Mardi Gras.
Spider-Man is reserved, and second guesses himself. If he were Gladiator, he would be quite possibly the weakest member of the Imperial Guard. I can't think of a time when Spider-Man didn't second guess himself once in a fight unless he's so far and above his opponent that it's ridiculous. More times than not, he'd rather talk the opponent down than fight. That's why he gets punked by street levelers. Now think of him when he's fighting an opponent who outclasses him, like Iron Man, Silver Surfer, Firelord. He's bouncing all over the place, and is portrayed like the handbooks describe him.

A Superhuman.

So saying "it's all because of the Spider-Sense" is selling the character extremely short. If we gave Ben Grimm a spider-sense, that he'd be pulling off the same stuff?

No. You would have to be superhuman for it to work. Give a slug Spider-sense, and all they know is when they're gonna die.

Sometimes I swear to God, Spider-Man would get more respect on the net if he were a f*#@ing ninja.

Originally posted by jinzin

and finally in origins and endings wolverine shows that his last test was a ceremony in which multiple assailants began to attack him one at a time and then en'masse, these guys are all uber skilled, and wolverine knows every one of them can kill him with one blow,

By the way were these guys as well trained as Captain America? 😏 So these guys can kill Wolverine with one blow but Captain America cant? 😕

Oh yeah one more thing when Wolverine can get out of a device which is used to contain shapeshifters that can change into any form using his wits, then Wolverine gets to be as smart as Cap.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well in a forum fight would cap try to communicate with Wolverine and get into that dangerous position.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cap has sent Namor reeling and has floored Namor with blows. If Namor can knock Wolverine out, its not illogical to think that Cap can knock out Wolverine for a good while. Also if Cap can knock out Wolverine its not illogical he can think of way of wounding him like he did in origins.

It IS illogical when cap's tried in the past and failed...
Hurting namor or effecting him with blows doesn't equate to him being able to knock wolverine out... and no, namor has NEVER knocked wolverine out in a straight fight, he knocked logan out with a blow to the back of his head after wolverine already had a long fight with his emperial guard (characters on namorita's level) and that was all after LOGAN REGENERATED FROM BEING BLOWN TO A FREAKING SKELETON...
honestly, if the best examples you can bring to this debate are one's that are shrouded with handicap's against wolverine then you're just proving what I'm already saying, cap can't beat wolverine.

Originally posted by Alfheim
furthermore Cap has already knocked out Wolverine, have a look at the cap respect thread. Wolverine was fully healed and had not been awake for days at the time. Cap did sneak up on him but the fact remains he still knocked him out cold.

YUP, you definitely ARE THAT DENSE... you'd have to be to argue that wolverine was fully healed.. okay let's see if I can explain this to you, wolverine's like a video game character, he may look the same on the outside, but the more damage he takes in a givin amount of time, the easier he is to put down... (hence the ENTIRE DISCUSSION around wolverine's HF non feats during origins... 😬...) Now you're telling me that cap knocked out a fully healed wolverine? NONSENSE, wolverine had just survived crashing an exploding black bird, he got blasted by racheal summers, fought beast, partially hit with havok's blast, and floored with cyclops' blast, how did cap knock wolverine out? FROM BEHIND, and AFTER wolverie took loads of damage... You honestly think that's a good display of cap possibly knocking out wolverine in a forum fight? a wolverine who hasn't been put through the ringer by half the x roster? a wolverine who isn't about to get snuck up on by cap?... duhhhh NO. NO is the answer.

Again, you got ANYTHING to prove your case besides feats where logan was cheapshotted or worn down already?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Already dealt with this point.
Already dealt with this point.

no you didn't...

you TRIED sure, but you did piss poorly... you need to try again.. cap ain't knocking logan out. He already layed into logan with a full force hit, full well ADMITTING he wasn't holding anything back.. all it did was make wolverine angry...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats not the point....thats....not....what...he...was...there....for. In a forum fight would Cap have stopped baecuse Wolverine stopped? No because there is no copter waiting for Cap to frog march Wolverine to.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Dont waste my time. The point is Wolverine is not fast enough to dodge Cap. Wolverine got connected by Cap several times, and one attack Wolverine deflected with his claws..he does not have those anymore. It doesnt matter if he has a cut on aleg he would have lasted long enough to get him. Cap has lost his shield, so your forgetting that Wolverine doesnt have a weapon, in other words he has no defense..

wrong, wolverine still has his arms, his elbows, his legs.. again wolverine took down winter soldier with his hands literally tied behind his back, and winter soldier had weapons, prep, and help... he still got plastered to the ground...
and waisting your time? you keep defecting to "if this were a forum fight" everytime you get backed into a corner, who's waisting who's time here....?

obviously wolverine CAN dodge aside from the plethora of examples I gave you, he DID dodge cap when cap tried to swing at him...
I mean seriously, cap can land punches on him so wolverine CAN'T dodge? I suppose wolverine can't dodge punches from drunken bafoons in barfights either because he doesn't right? I mean wolverine can see bullets in slow motion and tilt out of the way but those bar fight guys are just too fast.. too tough... too coordinated.. 🙄

seriously, he didn't have to dodge cap until cap got ahold of the sword.. after that he DID dodge the blade, and no cap wouldn't "last long enough to get him" that's retarded.. cap couldn't even last a stomp and 3 hits to the back of the head without the blood clot setting, and then after that he got 2 hits in on logan and fell down to it again.. he was in NO condition to fight here and it was PROVEN beyond your ridiclous speculations not ONCE but TWICE.

Originally posted by Alfheim
LOL and Cap cant do that. DD does this on a regular basis and Cap has beaten DD before. Not only that according to the Civil War report. Cap is enhanced human and DD is Athelete, Cap is ranked highier I have the scans but I cant be bothered to get them now. Also according to shield Cap can take out DD, go look at the Captain respect thread again. Cap have trouble with ninjas is PIS.

pffft. what a copout... "I don't like it, it must be pis"...
tell me how it was induced by the plot? what part of the plot did it further?

and you don't get it, I'm not comparing what wolverine can dodge to what cap can dodge, that's another tangent entirely... I've just given multiple examples of wolverine dodging multiple skilled SWORDSMEN without much effort... you said there's not enough evidence that logan could do what I said.. there it is right there..

Originally posted by Alfheim
We dont use low showings

uhhhh.....

you've brought up the origins battle,
and the enemy of the state incident as if they were standards in this very post.. yet you don't want to use low end showings? practice what you ****in preach...

Originally posted by Alfheim
and we dont use high showings either.

actually we do, these characters are operating at the best of their abilities remember... and not all high end feats dictate PIS... sooooo.....

Originally posted by Alfheim
In general Wolverine does not move like that.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cap has been moving like that for a 100 years, therefore Cap is more agile than him.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! cap hasn't even been around for 100 years, hell the guy spent a good portion of the latter 20th century stuck in a block of ice.. He's certainly not been in action for 100 years....but oh wait wolverine HAS....

and uhhhh.. cap is more agile because he chooses to use it more? in spite of wolverine producing feats of agility on par to anything caps done?

Originally posted by Alfheim
None of that is as impressive as dodging multiple lasers in zero gravity. When Wolverine does something like that come back and talk to me.

jesus man STAY ON TRACK HERE... stop grasping.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Your not listening Bro he would not have been able to dodge if he was able to dodge why the hell didnt he...er because hes not fast enough.

no YOUR'E not listening my friend...
does wolverine need to dodge captain america's punches?
no...
do they do anything to him?
no
does the muramasa blade?
yes..
dos he need to dodge the blade?
hell yes.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Maybe.

maybe? there's no maybe about it, he wouldn't have had it plain and simple.

Originally posted by Alfheim
yes but Cap is still a better fighter. Dont bother pulling the hand ninja examples again.

why because they don't bode well for your argument?
look every shred of evidence opposes what you say here.
wolverine was superior to cap in origins, cap got 2 hits on wolverine TOTAL that weren't cheap shots or set ups during the first part of the fight. sorry but he's nowhere near a better fighter... they're on the same level.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Also that was at WW2, since Wolverine is 200 years old there is bound to be a time when he was better than Cap at some point. At any rate the writing sucked, they were worshipping Wolverine and making Cap look like a chump...."My God man have you no decency."......that didnt make Cap look like a total chump?.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok lets think about this. Cap is shown stamping on Nukes head in the panel and it says something like THWAM THWAM THWAM!!!!!! Lets think about this again....your frog marching a dangerous mutant who could heal up at any moment. You get distracted by somebody who pulls on your leg. Due to this distraction Wolverine could either run away or **** you up. What do you do? Do you:
a) Pull your "punches".
b) Stomp the ****** out as quickly and as hard as you can?

again. ALL you have here is speculation..
first of all he only kicks nuke.. ONCE.. read the ****ing book.
second, he's talking while he's doing that, he obviously wasn't straining himself there..

Originally posted by Alfheim
That depends on the situation. The situation was a high stress one. Shock and fear can get your heart racing more than exercise. Thats why fear can make you:

a) Sweat without moving
b) Make your heart race faster than doing any exercise
c)Stress can also give you a heart attack even if you exercise regularly.

wait.. did you just imply that cap's afraid of wolverine? 😂 priceless...

Originally posted by Alfheim
First of all like I said it takes less effort to injure with a sword than it does with your fists, if the sword is light. Secondly how fast do you think Caps heart was racing when he said "NO!!!" Im sure you have been in situations like that your heart explodes. Ive done boxing before and getting jumped by a maniac would make my heart race than punching a bag or a person. Futhermore when you do martial arts even if you are using aggression you have to be in a state of relaxation and you have to conserve your energy. When Cap got jumped by Wolverine his heart was probably pounding.

"probably"

again all you have is specualation..

and stop acting like swordsmenship isn't physical exerting.. have you ever trained with a sword? It is a VERY demanding physical excoercise, i some way's it's rather harder than throwing punches... fact is, cap wasn't going to be lasting long in either scenario, how you continue to try and argue that it well beyond me,

Originally posted by Alfheim
This is irrelevant. This is the KMC forum. I have already explained this point. You dont stop because the other person has.

It's not irrelivant.. 🤨

It's what happened.. we're not discussing a forum fight! We're discussing origins.. jesus....

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats debatable..

no it really isn't. when cap starts to deflect multiple bullets coming at him with the edge of a sword blade, when he humiliates spiderman and shang chi at the same time, then MAYBE he can even look at silver samurai in the eye as a swordsmen...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Spiderman is not an MA expert but if he didnt pull his punches he would kill DD? Why because eventhough he skill level is lower his reflexes are very ........without the cosmic cube Red Skull is an MA expert. Cap also used a sword to kill him later on, eventhough it was a sneak attack its not unlikely that he is as good with the sword as he is with the pole

are you implying that he's faster than silver samurai?
the guy who stalmated a demon possessed suped up spidergirl?
NU-UH... and I'm not debating that he can handle weapons but he's NOT at silver samurai's level in swordplay.. that's no up for debate. ❌

So Cap didnt need to be fast enough to crush his tendons? Anyway I have already dealt with this, look above.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Already dealt with this.

apparently not considering that he had to use that shield trick to set wolverine up for that, another sneak attack by the way.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ask Marvelprince. Oh yeah what did The Wrecker do to Wolverine? He grabbed his arm and threw ..........a better fioghter my ***

and wolverine got right back up and railed wrecker for his troubles..
again when did cap ko wrecker? I'm not asking marvel prince because he's not the one who said that here.. you did.. so I'm asking you.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Already dealt with this. Besides Cap is the smarter figher Wolverind should not have been able to beat him like that.

he's a better strategist.. being a better strategist doesn't make him untouchable especially against another level 7 fighter...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok, but that doesnt ............like that happen.

because he can't.. wolverine can afford not to be cautious, hell he can throw it out the window.. why?
admantium bones and a healing factor.. neither of which cap has...
when wolverine has to dodge... what happens?
roughouse doesn't touch him
hulk doesn't touch him
wendigo doesn't lay ONE offensive attack on him...

cap on the other hand? yeah I seem to remember him getting beat by hulk even with doc samson there to help his ass....

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ive been through the whole Wolverine respect thread I have not seen them.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Go see the cap respect thread.

oooorrrr you COULD just show me, at the least give me a link.. an issue number.. anything...

Originally posted by Alfheim
Its their business to know. Thats like asking how would Tony Stark know how to build an Iron Man suit.

It's their business to know...?

riiiiiight... lol

okay then wolverine who is a class 9 beats captain america who's stuck at class 7 as per SHIELDS FILES... 😂

Originally posted by Alfheim
Already dealt with this point. Cap knows every martial art, having problems with the hand is PIS, period.

intricately? doubtful... sorry but cap saying he know's every martial art once or twice, as opposed to actually mastering them... well... two different things..

again.. how was it plot induced?

Originally posted by Alfheim
*sigh* Bro let me break it down for you again. When the heroes get togther its a ................him. Stop making excuses.

all i'm saying is that cap leading superheroes means squat shit in a fight... cap's led the hulk, drax the destroyer, firelord, doctor doom, thing, thor, and she hulk into a battle, cause he's the best fit leader.. it doesn't make him better in a fight. and again wolverine's CHARACTER PORTRAYAL IS NOT AN EXCUSE.. he's ALWAYS a reluctant leader if a leader at all.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cap has better ............ as smart as Cap.

and yeah wolverine has feats on par with cap in terms of speed and dodging... he just doesn't display them as often as cap cause he doesn't need to...

that's like saying

"when I see cap dodging optic blasts, bullets, and energy blasts without even looking at them.. blah blah blah... "

they're on par.. we all know this.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Already dealt with this point.

no.. you haven't.. you gave some halfassed rationale that didn't even make sense.. you've dealt with nothing.. I've dealt with you though. and I'm done.

Originally posted by jinzin
OMFG are you really THAT dense?

Look your becoming a typical rude Wolverine fanboy, im not dense and I can reply to your post. Try to be civil im not perfect myself but im working on it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
By the way were these guys as well trained as Captain America?

probably better considering that they could kill wolverine with one punch each..

how many times has cap punched wolverine.. how many times has he failed to knock wolverine out much less kill him?

EXACTLY..

Originally posted by Alfheim
So these guys can kill Wolverine with one blow but Captain America cant? 😕

yes because they're more likely trained in areas like chi amping and such..

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh yeah one more thing when Wolverine can get out of a device which is used to contain shapeshifters that can change into any form using his wits, then Wolverine gets to be as smart as Cap.

they are the SAME intelligence levels...

how about this.. when cap can COMPREHEND that he's been set up by his own government to go fight/kill wolverine and understands the inner workings of his own goverment that wolverine does get gets to be as smart as logan.. 🙄

Originally posted by Alfheim
Look your becoming a typical rude Wolverine fanboy, im not dense and I can reply to your post. Try to be civil im not perfect myself but im working on it.

I'm becoming rude because you keep ignoring things I've already clearly explained.. of course I'd begin to become irritated.. you constantly ignore what you don't like and backtrack like crazy when backed into a corner.. if your argument for comic feats don't work you defect to it being a forum fight when that wasn't what the discussion was even about, you keep making references (much like you did about the spidey wolverine graveyard fight) to incidents that you're not well educated on. I in no way feel bad about being annoyed by your ignorance.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm becoming rude because you keep ignoring things I've already clearly explained.. of course I'd begin to become irritated.. you constantly ignore what you don't like and backtrack like crazy when backed into a corner.. if your argument for comic feats don't work you defect to it being a forum fight when that wasn't what the discussion was even about, you keep making references (much like you did about the spidey wolverine graveyard fight) to incidents that you're not well educated on. I in no way feel bad about being annoyed by your ignorance.

So thiis thread isnt a forum fight is that what your telling me? The comics are just a point of reference, this thread is about a hypothetical situation between Cap vs Wolverine. I dont belive that in a realsitic fight things would have gone down they way yopu think they do and you wanna call me dense. There are things that you ahve ignored as well im not turning into a rude fanboy and insulting you. I dont like name calling because it ruins the discussion. So please control yourself.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So thiis thread isnt a forum fight is that what your telling me? The comics are just a point of reference, this thread is about a hypothetical situation between Cap vs Wolverine. I dont belive that in a realsitic fight things would have gone down they way yopu think they do and you wanna call me dense. There are things that you ahve ignored as well im not turning into a rude fanboy and insulting you. I dont like name calling because it ruins the discussion. So please control yourself.

see this is exactly what I was talking about..
you're too dense to even understand what I was getting at in that last post...

dude... THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION WE'RE HAVING right now is based on the events in origins.. NOT a forum fight... (so for you're clarification, since you apparently need it, no I did not mean that this isn't a forum fight, but rather that it's not a forum fight that we're discussing HERE and NOW)

We're basically on a very LARGE tangent, that's still fairly related to the topic at hand.

Sorry if you feel I'm being insulting, however I find it no insult to say that a dense man... is dense.

Again, you tried to argue that wolverine was "fully healed" in the eots incident and argue that cap scored a legitimate knock out, how is that NOT dense?

It totally ignores everything that happened before that took place... 😕

however, if I hurt your feelings then fine, I apologize, I'll try to keep myself in check for the future... but no promises.