Originally posted by jinzin
saying it's a one in a trillion chance doesn't do much if anything to actually explain HOW it happened....how does a spider survive that much radioactivity? how does it transfer it's own attributes to peter?
how does peter aquire physical attribues, yet no fear of newspapers, inability to get out of a shower, or thirst for fluids and/or blood? how come one of his super powers ISN'T spider venom? or a spider bite? how does he adhere to walls?
I would love to know the answers to the questions that you're presenting but that doesn't change the fact that they are calling for FURTHER explanation, for an explanation has already been given...simple as that. Even his ability to stick to walls has been explained and defined as mysterious. The things that I feel are not suitable as evidence for any character are the instances where they do something that they SHOULD NOT be ABLE to do AT ALL. ( like Wolverine not being able to pierce the Thing )In that instance someone could very well say that the comic world supports the Thing having more durability than the hulk. In the comic world things happen that shouldn't quite often.....It's all about drama.
Originally posted by jinzinThat above human superpower is what lets him hang with the peak human Cap not the fact that he is a peak human....His bio will prove this if you have access to it. Stats are quite general despite being facts. Bios are specific.
dd has the same stats as captain america and he fought cap to a stalemate before...so I assume...peak human based on that alone...given his superpower he's above human in some aspects as well....
Originally posted by jinzin
I have disgraced comic book characters by saying they should remain COMIC BOOK characters? sorry but I don't quite follow that logic...
The disgrace that I am speaking of is suggesting that fantasy applies to these DEBATES in such a way that beating the odds transforms into having the upper hand. Though I enjoy reading fantasy I do not apply it to my logic. eg. Bugs Bunny vs The Animaniacs equals a stalemate when bloodlust is applied..Neither can die...I know it sounds crazy and that's exactly what I'm talking about. In comic world death is just as likely to happen as it is in the real world....it is not COMPLETE fantasyland. If you truly want the comic book characters to act within the confines of fantasy for these debates then it equals a stalemate EVERY TIME.
Originally posted by jinzin
I mean it's like this, you're familiar with the real world logic etxc because another one doesn't exist...
If the comics weren't realistic then I doubt us grown mutha ******s would read them.....c'mon man how many cartoon comics have you bought for your personal entertainment....I'm gonna guess NONE. I apply the same logic that is in the comic world and take out the drama and bs. I can only do that because of the bios and other facts derived from the comics. eg. If Wolverine goes to the avengers facility and gets on their "how much can you press machine" then whatever he attains I would consider that applicable to his character.
Originally posted by jinzinPeak and weak humans are incredibly resilient and can survive against insurmountable odds...They are also quite fragile and can die from minor injuries..... But the odds lie in the favor of surviving minor injuries and dying in the face of insurmountable odds.
well I'm familiar with comic book characters in the MU that are (key word here) "completely" bound to real world logic and physics.... answer me this do peak humans take superhuman amounts of punishment? do they do it on a fairly regular basis?
Originally posted by jinzin
if you say no you're lying, if you say yes than you've just argued against yourself at who's being the true disgrace to comic books...no offense but the premise of that conclussion is illogical...we are either debating real world guys or we are not..if it's real world, spidey doesn't exist... if it is not..these guys are fully capable of both taking and rolling wih multiple spidey hits...
and more than fully capable of taking him down.
The reason that movies can be made about comic book characters is because the comic world is based on the REAL world. The characters don't exist in the REAL world but the premise is that they very well could. That is why these debates exist... if the comics were not subject to the rules of supply and demand Wolverine would have never beat Lobo ( and he wouldn't have been able to knock him down to stab his cohones like you implied) The comics are subject to the rules of supply and demand and that's why you've never read about a major comic character dying from being in the wrong place in the wrong time ( like catching a stray bullet or falling asleep in a car and not surviving the wreck.)
If I were trying to sell comics then I would have Wolverine beat Sabertooth and Venom at the same time so that his fans would buy it and his haters would buy it to analyze it for flaws.
I'm not trying to sell comics...I just know them real good. 😮💨
DD, Cap, and Wolverine are at their best peak humans.... Spider-man is, at his best, 18x the physical capabilities of a human at his maximum. He also carries a weapon that is ranged and incapacitates targets. He has superhuman aim to the point wher he doesn't even have to focus on a target to hit it. (web-slinging) None of the trio can muscle out of the webbing. None of the trio can prevent him from overpowering them ( and Cap and DD will be seriously injured from a full strength grab to any area on their body) The fight is a mismatch but it doesn't appear so because so many people view Spider-man as weak, soft, and corny.
They need MORE power to beat him. IMO. 😮💨
Alright, I'll see where this goes using just theoretical stats. Feats, as have been shown, are just far too inconsistent to go by, since a lot of it can be attributed to PIS. I'll try to use Marvel's official stats, which might be hard, considering each 'level' represents a broad area.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Spider-Man
Intelligence - 4
Strength - 4
Speed - 3
Durability - 3
Energy Protection - 1
Fighting Skills - 4
Additional Notes:
Superhuman reflexes (allegedly 15x normal human, which would be about .0016 seconds, which would fit with the .003 number for his Spider-Sense. If you can be warned .003 seconds before being hit and you react at .0016 seconds, you can dodge just fine if you're fast enough)
Ability to cling to sheer vertical surfaces with hands and feet through molecular control, or just to make it simple, static cling
Spider-Sense (warns of immediate danger .003 seconds before 'impact'😉
Superhuman Equilibrium (just means he doesn't get disoriented when going upside-down, etc. unless tossed)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Captain America
Intelligence - 3
Strength - 3
Speed - 2
Durability - 3
Energy Protection - 1
Fighting Skills - 7
Additional Notes:
Immune to fatigue
Shield is a 2-1/2 foot diameter concave disk that weighs 12 lbs; indestructible; able to rebound off solid objects with minimal loss of angular momentum
Gifted strategist
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolverine
Intelligence - 2
Strength - 4
Speed - 2
Durability - 4
Energy Protection - 1
Fighting Skills - 7
Additional Notes:
Animal-level senses
Indestructible skeleton
Indestructible claws that can slice through anything (other than Adamantium itself)
Healing factor can heal wounds such as cuts within seconds, allows him to survive fatal injuries
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Daredevil
Intelligence - 3
Strength - 2
Speed - 2
Durability - 2
Energy Protection - 1
Fighting Skills - 5
Additional Notes:
Superhuman sense of hearing, smell, touch, and taste (able to hear heartbeats from 20 feet away, perceives minute changes in the temperature and pressure in atmosphere, able to sense proximity and arrangement of objects in a 360 degree fashion automatically)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
All statistical information, save Spidey's Spider-Sense, came straight from Marvel itself. From this, we can infer that on levels alone:
IQ: Spider-Man > Cap = Dardevil > Wolverine
Strength: Spider-Man = Wolverine > Cap > Daredevil
Speed: Spider-Man > Cap = Wolverine = Daredevil
Durability: Wolverine > Spider-Man = Cap
Energy Protection: = (really inconsequential)
Fighting Skills: Cap = Wolverine > Daredevil > Spider-Man
My guess would be that Marvel uses the levels, rather than straight statistical information, in order to stay vague on their characters' abilities, seeing as how that allows comics to retain a certain amount of flexibility in what their stars can do.
NOTE - Speed Stat: I'm going to assume this is how fast a character moves and not how fast they run, as the Hulk has Speed: lvl 3, which would be on par with Spider-Man's; obviously, the Hulk can run a whole lot faster than Spider-Man.
NOTE: Just for the sake of comparison, as he is a normal human, Punisher's stats are:
Intelligence - 2
Strength - 2
Speed - 2
Durability - 2
Energy Protection - 1
Originally posted by The MISTER
I like Wanderer 259's post because he showed how stats and bio's need to be used in conjunction.Bios are very specific and cover almost every facet of the character. When I refer to stats I refer to specifics not vauge generalities.
Like I said, 1,2 and three don't matter.
Wolveirne lifts 800, spiderman lifts 30000
Like I said, 1,2 and three don't matter.Wolveirne lifts 800, spiderman lifts 30000
Bear in mind that I believe Marvel's stats try to take multiple things into account. Wolverine's strength may be as high as it is due to his adamantium skeleton's ability to support pretty much anything. Spider-Man's speed may be as high as it is due to his Spider-Sense. Also, our numbers (admittedly, my Spider-Sense number does too) comes from third party sources, not Marvel itself, and those numbers are already outdated anyway in terms of what humans are capable of.
It's also possible that in Marvel's company-wide policy of upgrading and switching things around, Wolverine got boosted. Stupid, but plausible. With the way things are going (ie, Doc Ock), it's also likely.
I think they're intentionally being vague. Like I said, it allows for better flexibility in comic stories.
Originally posted by Wanderer259
Bear in mind that I believe Marvel's stats try to take multiple things into account. Wolverine's strength may be as high as it is due to his adamantium skeleton's ability to support pretty much anything. Spider-Man's speed may be as high as it is due to his Spider-Sense. Also, our numbers (admittedly, my Spider-Sense number does too) comes from third party sources, not Marvel itself, and those numbers are already outdated anyway in terms of what humans are capable of.It's also possible that in Marvel's company-wide policy of upgrading and switching things around, Wolverine got boosted. Stupid, but plausible. With the way things are going (ie, Doc Ock), it's also likely.
I think they're intentionally being vague. Like I said, it allows for better flexibility in comic stories.
Yes, understood, which is also why there are many factors to take into account, spiderman has superhuman fighting ability, even though he doesn't have "mundane" training.
Wolverine is enhanced by his skeleton, and peters powers were supposed to be from a spider.
Regardless, if you have the actual facts, and not gauges, then it makes a better debate, while large gaps are for discussion.
Last year during Marvel's "Disassembled" arc, Spidey gained organic web shooters, his reflex speed increased by another 5x, he strenght level increased to lifting 5 tons more than before, his spider-sense was enhanced giving him a "psychic alignment" with his environment, and he can communicate with spiders and insects. There may've been other changes, we'll just have to wait and see.
I just saw this on another board. I knew that Spidey's strength had been increased to Class 15 and that he had gained organic web-shooters, but his reflexes and Spider-Sense was amped, too? I haven't been reading Spidey's own book - everything of the 'new' Spidey I've seen has been in New Avengers.
So now Spider-Man has Class 15 strength, at least 20x reflexes (which is on par with Deathlok, so you can say he has computer-level reflexes), psychic-level Spider-Sense (which will give him infallible spatial awareness on par or beyond Dardevil and Nightcrawler), and he can communicate with spiders and other insects.
Spidey is truly Avengers level now. Did they amp Wolverine to put him on the team, too? Will they soon? Probably.
I'd say that in light of the new information, I'm giving Spidey more of an advantage here. His strength increased by 5 tons isn't too big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but now he will be almost impossible to hit and he was already strong enough to roll just fine with the trio.
I initially had Spidey with the advantage, but that was the regular ol' Spidey; now I'm more inclined to straight-up give him the win. 'Upgraded' Avengers-level Spidey might be too much now.
Originally posted by Dizzle
You forget that the new webs take a few seconds to dry when he's battling Wolverine, so that Logan can pull away from a wall using his amazing muscles... And of course, when he web swings, it sags a couple feet before it dries and supports his weight. (GOD I hate arguing with pro-Wolveriners)
Matters not, the webbing at 1/10 strength is too much for him.
Originally posted by Wanderer259
I just saw this on another board. I knew that Spidey's strength had been increased to Class 15 and that he had gained organic web-shooters, but his reflexes and Spider-Sense was amped, too? I haven't been reading Spidey's own book - everything of the 'new' Spidey I've seen has been in New Avengers.So now Spider-Man has Class 15 strength, at least 20x reflexes (which is on par with Deathlok, so you can say he has computer-level reflexes), psychic-level Spider-Sense (which will give him infallible spatial awareness on par or beyond Dardevil and Nightcrawler), and he can communicate with spiders and other insects.
Spidey is truly Avengers level now. Did they amp Wolverine to put him on the team, too? Will they soon? Probably.
I'd say that in light of the new information, I'm giving Spidey more of an advantage here. His strength increased by 5 tons isn't too big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but now he will be almost impossible to hit and he was already strong enough to roll just fine with the trio.
I initially had Spidey with the advantage, but that was the regular ol' Spidey; now I'm more inclined to straight-up give him the win. 'Upgraded' Avengers-level Spidey might be too much now.
Thats the spiderman I was arguing, with his upgrades.
Thats why I see him taking home the win, he does more damage, can capture, AND is harder to hit.
Though I can only wonder when the insects come to play.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Said the pot to the kettle.
Well Creshosk I guess this is your rebuttal for farseer's post... what amazing debating skills.
Answering questions with questions and completely ignoring points that you can't deal with? 😆
WEAK!
I'm glad not all of the trio's supporters don't respond like this
Oh yeah Very good points Wanderer 259 😮💨
....pot to the kettle... 😆
Thats the spiderman I was arguing, with his upgrades.Thats why I see him taking home the win, he does more damage, can capture, AND is harder to hit.
Though I can only wonder when the insects come to play.
Even so, this is in a thread where CIS won't apply. In any other thread, where CIS does apply unless stipulated that it doesn't, Spidey would be less effective.
This isn't CIS, though, and he's going 'all means possible'. I'm inclined to give Spidey the win. The trio still have a chance, though.
Right, I shall give a very basic situation that could occur, causing Spiderman to win, then you can attemp to tell me why it wouldn't happen this way (using actual information, not just "One time so-and-so did this in a comic"😉, then suggest an alternate course of events leading to the trio's victory. If you can do this without resorting to petty bickering and pointless comments, maybe people will have some respect for you, but otherwise please accept that although the trio could possibly win (as I stated before, in the fantasy world of comics, anyone COULD win), it's highly unlikely and would lose in 9 out of 10 fights.
Hypothetical situation causing Spidey to win:
Spidey stays at range and dodges. He uses every opportunity to attempt to web his opponents disabling them. He achieves this one at a time while staying away from them, especially wolverine as he knows that Wolvie's claws are the only real threat to him. After he has succesfully webbed his opponents, which may take a while but would eventually happen (and which would hold any of them, as none of them are strong enough to break out of it), he walks to each one individually. When he reaches Cap or DD he simply uses his ample strength to crush their heads like bugs. When he gets to Wolverine (who he would make sure was secure before approaching) he covers his face in a thick layer of webbing, blocking off his air. He then sits back to make some witty comment, drink a Daquiri and watch Wolverine's death throes.
Right now on with an actual debate, as opposed to the silliness that has covered this thread for the last 160 or so pages, from both sides (yes some Spidey supporters have been just as useless and uninformed as some Trio fans)
Originally posted by The MISTER
Well Creshosk I guess this is your rebuttal for farseer's post... what amazing debating skills.Answering questions with questions and completely ignoring points that you can't deal with? 😆
WEAK!
I'm glad not all of the trio's supporters don't respond like this
Oh yeah Very good points Wanderer 259 😮💨
....pot to the kettle... 😆
He's going to try and turn everything you said against you, for a hollow victory and to keep his confidence.
It will go like this...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Originally posted by The MISTER
Well Creshosk I guess this is your rebuttal for farseer's post... what amazing debating skills.
Better than anything the spidey supporters come up with.
Originally posted by The MISTER
Answering questions with questions and completely ignoring points that you can't deal with? 😆
You ask of something you don't return, and you don't see it, pathetic. 😆
Originally posted by The MISTER
WEAK!
Originally posted by The MISTER
I'm glad not all of the trio's supporters don't respond like this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then Merc and jinzin come in....
Jinzin: Your assessment of blah blah blah, Sabretooth in the eighties blah blah blah, wolverine is the best at what he does blah blah blah, Marvel says so, blah blah blah.
Pfft, whatever. 🙄
Then merc comes in.
Merc: The spiderman boys don't want to admit he's got his ass handed to him by these guys one on one.
Don't expect them to argue on your level.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Its the three ****ing stooges, thats why I stopped listening to them long ago, I just mock them.
Its quite pathetic how everywhere wolverine goes, they go, and try to add spiderman into it.
Originally posted by Wanderer259
Even so, this is in a thread where CIS won't apply. In any other thread, where CIS does apply unless stipulated that it doesn't, Spidey would be less effective.This isn't CIS, though, and he's going 'all means possible'. I'm inclined to give Spidey the win. The trio still have a chance, though.
agreed, thats what I've been saying all along, a hypothetical argument.