Originally posted by whobdamandogThe martial artist is to explain his speed. In comics things are a bit more exagerated.
Once again Creshosk you amaze me with the articulation presented in your posts, however, once again you also amaze me with the innaccuracy of the information you present, and the absurdity of your rationalizations made from this invalid data.
Originally posted by whobdamandogThey haven't updated to keep up with the real world, but this does not detract from my point.
Did you know that Olympic squatters have been shown to lift 1000 lbs from squatting positions? Wolverine's adamantium skeleton enables him to lift objects in the "700 - 800" lb range, keep in mind..he does this with maximum effort. This is not superhuman to any degree, in fact..its below "peek human levels."
Captain America is a peak human, and in the 7 steps for stats system In strength Captain America is a 3, Wolverine is a 4. and 4 is "superhuman". Starting at 800 pounds.
Now if the stats were to be updated then peak humans should be raised to 1000 lbs, and Wolverine being above human before the change should be raised to 1200 to match.
And remember Captain America is peak human according to Marvel's stats. And Wolverine is very baselive superhuman, according to marvels stats.
http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm
Originally posted by whobdamandogAgain, you are trying to apply real world martial arts to Comic Book martial arts.
Equating martial arts to enabling one to perform "Superhuman feats" is rediculous. Knowing martial arts does not make one physically stronger, however, it helps in the application of one's strength. This doesn't make it possible for an individual to lift cars over their head, stop a speeding car with a Karate strike, or jump 3 stories in the air. If you believe in the plausibilty of a "real world" martial artist performing these types of feats, then you've been watching too much DBZ and Kung fu movies my friend.
Originally posted by whobdamandogComic book martial arts are not the same as Real world martial arts. If a real world martial artist is able to preform exceptional feats in the real world, then in the comic book world it only makes sense to have them be amplified up.
It's intresting that you bring up this "real world logic" argument, seeing as how its contradictory to your initial argument of it not being applied in the "comic book world." However for the sake of being fair, I'll except it as a plausible argument. Now please take into account that the greatest "real world" Martial artists have not demonstrated the ability to dodge bullets, jump 3 stories in the air, or perform similar superhuman feats. So if your argument is that the Trio can move as fast as a "real world" Martial artist, then I'd have to say..that would be significantly slower than any movement demonstrated by SM in the "comic book world."
Originally posted by whobdamandogSo now it's up to me to provide your arguments for you? 🙄
Simple...because you don't provide them.
Originally posted by whobdamandogBut we have a number to apply to the spider sense, the way its been described and the way its been used in the comic books are two different matters.
I've never attested to the speed of the sense in any post. All I've done is mention that it is a form of precognition, and that it is yet another "superhuman ability" that the Trio do not have.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
No he does not.
http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm
Level 4 is the start of the super human range. According to Marvel's stats.
Originally posted by whobdamandogHave you even read Wolverine's comics?
No he is not. And more importantly, you have given nothing statistical to validate his ability to move at "Flash-like" speeds. To state that he consistently moves "faster than the eye can see" means that you are either.a) lying
b) a fanboy
c) greatly misinformed
d) All of the above.Call me crazy, but I'm betting the answer is "d."
If not then why are you arguing against characters you don't know about?
Originally posted by whobdamandogAnd I don't deem any of your arguments as credible because you haven't done what you've been asking for. What's worse is you just told me to logically explain YOUR arguments FOR you. . .
Debate however you wish, but remember to support your evidence with valid/logical arguments and statistical information..particularly if you wish others to deem them as credible.
And that's an illogical thing to do in debate.
Originally posted by Creshosk
The martial artist is to explain his speed. In comics things are a bit more exagerated.
Yet unfortunatley..you still fail to realize, that this contradicts your argument of "real world logic" not being applicable to the "comic book world." Making a comparison between two concepts that you yourself have deemed to be markedly different is illogical, and exposes the general logic fallacy in your argument, which in turn invalidates it.
They haven't updated to keep up with the real world, but this does not detract from my point.Captain America is a peak human, and in the 7 steps for stats system In strength Captain America is a 3, Wolverine is a 4. and 4 is "superhuman". Starting at 800 pounds
This supports the initial statement I made about Wolverine being on the 800 lb range in terms of strength. And Once again, you've invalidated another one of your arguments, seeing as how you've just asserted that their are indeed established limits to what a "peak human" can do.
Now if the stats were to be updated then peak humans should be raised to 1000 lbs, and Wolverine being above human before the change should be raised to 1200 to match.And remember Captain America is peak human according to Marvel's stats. And Wolverine is very baselive superhuman, according to marvels stats.
Congradulations on defeating another one of your arguments. To say that they need to "update" the stats based on "real world" applications of strength..suggests that "real world" logic is relevant in determining what should/shouldn't be deemed "logical" in comic books.
To top it off, by suggesting that Marvel's "peak human" stats need to be updated, you've also inadvertently given the implication that "superhuman stats" should be updated as well. So I guess this update makes SM a bit stronger. I'd say 5-10 tons would be a fair amount, which would put his base level in the 20 ton range. Are you even sure your still arguing for the Trio?
Again, you are trying to apply real world martial arts to Comic Book martial arts.
No..your the one who's doing that, your comparing "real world" abilities to that of the "comic book world." By contradicting your own argument, you've invalidated it, exposing its logic fallacy. But there really is no need to debate this anymore. I already mentioned this above.
Comic book martial arts are not the same as Real world martial arts.
If there not the same..than how can you make a "logical" comparison between the two?
So now it's up to me to provide your arguments for you? 🙄
I'm arguing for SM, not the Trio. There is no need for me to give an explanation regarding any of their feats or stats. That's your job my friend.
But we have a number to apply to the spider sense, the way its been described and the way its been used in the comic books are two different matters.
Yet you still haven't given any statistical data, scenarios, or historical information invalidating its effectiveness...if anything you've supported it as being more effective in avoiding an attack than "heightened physical senses", seeing as how "heightened physical senses" can not predict an attack before it occurs, while "precognitive senses" can.
Level 4 is the start of the super human range. According to Marvel's stats.
Okay..I'll agree. With his adamantium laced skeleton, Wolverine is in the low Superhuman range. Around 800 - 1200 lbs. Without it, his strength is significantly lower than that of a peak human.
Have you even read Wolverine's comics?If not then why are you arguing against characters you don't know about?
I know much about Wolverine and all of Marvel's characters, seeing as how I had roughly over 5000 comics at one point most of them being Marvel comics.
And I don't deem any of your arguments as credible because you haven't done what you've been asking for. What's worse is you just told me to logically explain YOUR arguments FOR you. . .And that's an illogical thing to do in debate.
It is not my responsibility to validate why the Trio should win, or how their stats, feats, etc should be applicable to this fight. You are arguing for the Trio, so that responsability lies in your hands. Once again you have managed to validate one thing in this debate, that being your inablity to reason.
This is similar to being a small child again, where you played fictional games that were entirely based in the mind and were so far from reality that saying "Well I can do this" was all that was required to have those abilities within the confines of the game. Unfortunately this is a debate about something which while fictional, does have some basis in reality. No there is no real life Spider-man, but the world that it's set in still has the same physical laws. Of course sometimes these physical laws are stretched to accomodate the many feats of the characters involved, but this is usually due to the powers of the fictional characters. If you really want to get into a physics debate, the Flash doesn't make a lot of sense. He can move at close to light speed (I think, but I admit I'm not 100% sure) and by the well known E=mc2, he would collapse under his increasing weight as he doesn't have super strength, as mass increases in proportion to speed. So no we can't set in stone that someone can and can't do something in the comics, but for these debates we have to assume that it's set in our world, since theirs is based on it, but changes so frequently that you could never come to a stisfactory outcome due to the fact that literally anything could happen.
I think a question that really needs to be answered is: Why have the trio fans been completely incabale of actually providing solid evidence as to how the trio would win, or come up with a realistic (again realistic in this setting is itself open to debate) scenario in which the trio beats Spidey. It has been shown repeatedly that the comics themselves are so far flung at different times that what has happenend at various times cannot provide a solid basis for debate. For example in the comics, Spidey has sent Wolvie flying at one point (I believe the pic is somewhere in this thread) just by backhanding him, next I've seen (I'm positive that this pic is in here) Wolvie breaking free of the webbing despite having also seen (I dunno where these pics would be) spidey's webbing hold much stronger people than Wolverine. The comics are so inconsistant that simply looking at what characters have done in the past is more or less irrelevant. The only thing that trio fans have said about them winning is that if Wolverine stabbed Spidey, it's over for him. This is true but the keyword here is if. There's no reasonable explanation as to why Spidey would put himself in the position where he could be stabbed. There's no good reason (especially since he now has organic webbing and doesn't have to worry about canisters running out) why spidey would get in range of wolvie's claws, at least no until he's webbed him sufficiently and can just walk up and choke him/throw him in the water (or however he choses to get around Wolverine's healing). Wolverine has no range, and no chance of catching Spidey if Spidey doesn't want to get close. I've sortof dismissed Cap and DD here but there doesn't really seem to be much debate on that fact that they'd be taken out very quickly and at almost no effort from SM. Now unless you can show solid evidence as to why the trio might win (and I don't mean just quoting this post and saying I'm wrong/stupid/biased etc, I mean actually coming up with a way that they could pull it off). I'm not even a particularly big fan of Spidey, I've always rather liked the X-men, but I can see here that this fight would end with Spidey spinging around making silly comments long after the other 3 are dead/immobile.
I have mentioned nothing about Spidey winning "because of something he did one time in the comics", and I have spidey winning. I don't want to hear anything about Wolvering having ripped through webbing once, jumped 3 floors once, stabbed Spidey once or any of that other stuff based solely on comic inconsistencies. If you can't come up with a trio-victory situation based solely on what they can and can't do, as shown by their stats/powers (which are created by Marvel so that's what the creators say they can/can't do) then please don't be offended by people laughing at you and ignoring you for being a fanboy with nothing constructive to bring to the debate.
Notice that above I didn't even mentioned Spider-sense coming into play in the fight. There has been far too much argument over how it works and how fast it is, and to be quite honest; once Spidey takes Cap and DD out of the equation (which shouldn't even be under debate given his vast superiority over them) he won't need it against wolverine. he can keep far enough ahead of him or face him so that he wouldn't even require reacting to things happening behind him or faster than he'd normally be able to react, that is unless of course you suddenly decide that wolverine now has a rifle (which, to be honest, wouldn't surprise me in the slightest....)
Originally posted by Farseer
This is similar to being a small child again, where you played fictional games that were entirely based in the mind and were so far from reality that saying "Well I can do this" was all that was required to have those abilities within the confines of the game. Unfortunately this is a debate about something which while fictional, does have some basis in reality. No there is no real life Spider-man, but the world that it's set in still has the same physical laws. Of course sometimes these physical laws are stretched to accomodate the many feats of the characters involved, but this is usually due to the powers of the fictional characters. If you really want to get into a physics debate, the Flash doesn't make a lot of sense. He can move at close to light speed (I think, but I admit I'm not 100% sure) and by the well known E=mc2, he would collapse under his increasing weight as he doesn't have super strength, as mass increases in proportion to speed. So no we can't set in stone that someone can and can't do something in the comics, but for these debates we have to assume that it's set in our world, since theirs is based on it, but changes so frequently that you could never come to a stisfactory outcome due to the fact that literally anything could happen.I think a question that really needs to be answered is: Why have the trio fans been completely incabale of actually providing solid evidence as to how the trio would win, or come up with a realistic (again realistic in this setting is itself open to debate) scenario in which the trio beats Spidey. It has been shown repeatedly that the comics themselves are so far flung at different times that what has happenend at various times cannot provide a solid basis for debate. For example in the comics, Spidey has sent Wolvie flying at one point (I believe the pic is somewhere in this thread) just by backhanding him, next I've seen (I'm positive that this pic is in here) Wolvie breaking free of the webbing despite having also seen (I dunno where these pics would be) spidey's webbing hold much stronger people than Wolverine. The comics are so inconsistant that simply looking at what characters have done in the past is more or less irrelevant. The only thing that trio fans have said about them winning is that if Wolverine stabbed Spidey, it's over for him. This is true but the keyword here is if. There's no reasonable explanation as to why Spidey would put himself in the position where he could be stabbed. There's no good reason (especially since he now has organic webbing and doesn't have to worry about canisters running out) why spidey would get in range of wolvie's claws, at least no until he's webbed him sufficiently and can just walk up and choke him/throw him in the water (or however he choses to get around Wolverine's healing). Wolverine has no range, and no chance of catching Spidey if Spidey doesn't want to get close. I've sortof dismissed Cap and DD here but there doesn't really seem to be much debate on that fact that they'd be taken out very quickly and at almost no effort from SM. Now unless you can show solid evidence as to why the trio might win (and I don't mean just quoting this post and saying I'm wrong/stupid/biased etc, I mean actually coming up with a way that they could pull it off). I'm not even a particularly big fan of Spidey, I've always rather liked the X-men, but I can see here that this fight would end with Spidey spinging around making silly comments long after the other 3 are dead/immobile.
I have mentioned nothing about Spidey winning "because of something he did one time in the comics", and I have spidey winning. I don't want to hear anything about Wolvering having ripped through webbing once, jumped 3 floors once, stabbed Spidey once or any of that other stuff based solely on comic inconsistencies. If you can't come up with a trio-victory situation based solely on what they can and can't do, as shown by their stats/powers (which are created by Marvel so that's what the creators say they can/can't do) then please don't be offended by people laughing at you and ignoring you for being a fanboy with nothing constructive to bring to the debate.
Amen.
Originally posted by whobdamandogSince you are forcing me t ouse real wolrd logic to prove my point based on the stats it does not invalidate it.
Yet unfortunatley..you still fail to realize, that this contradicts your argument of "real world logic" not being applicable to the "comic book world." Making a comparison between two concepts that you yourself have deemed to be markedly different is illogical, and exposes the general logic fallacy in your argument, which in turn invalidates it.
We both know that omic book physics and Real world physics are different enough that things that happen in the comic books might never happen in the real world.
And if you were to apply real world physics into the comic book world you'd encounter the same problem that you would whenever the fictional wolrd fudges something for the story.
Cyclops for example would have to have a really strong physioology bordering on super human in order to fire his optic blasts due to newtons third law.
But in order to counter your real world arguments I myself have to use real world physics to deal with your posts.
There is nothing illogical about debating on common ground despite a belief.
Originally posted by whobdamandogDon't blame me if that's what Marvel calls them and if they once again got their numbers wrong and simply used something that sounded good, but turns out to not be as such.
This supports the initial statement I made about Wolverine being on the 800 lb range in terms of strength. And Once again, you've invalidated another one of your arguments, seeing as how you've just asserted that their are indeed established limits to what a "peak human" can do.
This also raises the question of how much could a human lift back when they initially made these characters?
Originally posted by whobdamandogOnly when debating with people that insist on using it.
Congradulations on defeating another one of your arguments. To say that they need to "update" the stats based on "real world" applications of strength..suggests that "real world" logic is relevant in determining what should/shouldn't be deemed "logical" in comic books.
You realize that none of your points that use real world logic are valid since you keep brushing off my points with a "You said that real world logic has no place." rather than dealing with these points in the first place.
Originally posted by whobdamandogWhy would you need to give him 5-10 tons? It's a 200 pound increase.
To top it off, by suggesting that Marvel's "peak human" stats need to be updated, you've also inadvertently given the implication that "superhuman stats" should be updated as well. So I guess this update makes SM a bit stronger. I'd say 5-10 tons would be a fair amount, which would put his base level in the 20 ton range. Are you even sure your still arguing for the Trio?
Now you're sounding exteamly biased here.
Originally posted by whobdamandogOnce again despite your claim that you did not:
No..your the one who's doing that, your comparing "real world" abilities to that of the "comic book world." By contradicting your own argument, you've invalidated it, exposing its logic fallacy. But there really is no need to debate this anymore. I already mentioned this above.
The ones supported by statistical data...or where a "logical" arguments can be applied to support them. Wolverine moving faster than the eye can see, jumping three stories in the air, having enough strength to break steel cable, or similar "historical incidents" are not supported by statisical data, and you/others have as of yet not provided any logical/reasonable arguments to validate them.
How am I supposed to logically explain without using real world physics?
And once again why are you not adressing the points rather than brushing them off?
Would you rather I make the same claim you do and just say "He's done it a million times before, therefore it's logical that he can do it again? No, you don't seem to accept that.
You're setting up a double standard here weather you know it or not. But being hypocritical just so your side can win is certainly making you look like a fanboy.
Originally posted by whobdamandogHow about if you answer that for me.
If there not the same..than how can you make a "logical" comparison between the two?
I'd love to see your answer.
Originally posted by whobdamandogWhich is why I asked you to logically explain the times that SPIDERMAN preforms beyond his abilities.
I'm arguing for SM, not the Trio. There is no need for me to give an explanation regarding any of their feats or stats. That's your job my friend.
Why don't we ever get explinations for spidey characters preforming feats beyond their stats?[/b]
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Yet you still haven't given any statistical data,
http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm
Originally posted by whobdamandogWhy should I bother if you're just going to brush off my posts like you did above?
scenarios,
Originally posted by whobdamandogYou haven't read Wolverine's comics!
or historical information invalidating its effectiveness...
You're arguing against the trio when you know nothing about them.
That's making you look really bad.
Originally posted by whobdamandogAnd you haven't logically explained Spiderman useing his sense beyond his given statistic, you big ol' hypocrite you! 😛
if anything you've supported it as being more effective in avoiding an attack than "heightened physical senses", seeing as how "heightened physical senses" can not predict an attack before it occurs, while "precognitive senses" can.
Originally posted by whobdamandogActually without it he's lowered to what Marvel classifies as a peak human.
Okay..I'll agree. With his adamantium laced skeleton, Wolverine is in the low Superhuman range. Around 800 - 1200 lbs. Without it, his strength is significantly lower than that of a peak human.
Originally posted by whobdamandogyou can make claims like this if you want, but since you've porven a lack of knowledge of the character I have a difficult time believing you.
I know much about Wolverine and all of Marvel's characters, seeing as how I had roughly over 5000 comics at one point most of them being Marvel comics.
Originally posted by whobdamandogAnd you like wise for your characters. I'm sorry but you really haven't proven anything either other than a double standard, and a desperate attempt to brush off points without actually countering them.
It is not my responsibility to validate why the Trio should win, or how their stats, feats, etc should be applicable to this fight. You are arguing for the Trio, so that responsability lies in your hands. Once again you have managed to validate one thing in this debate, that being your inablity to reason.
Originally posted by FarseerSaid the pot to the kettle.
This is similar to being a small child again, where you played fictional games that were entirely based in the mind and were so far from reality that saying "Well I can do this" was all that was required to have those abilities within the confines of the game. Unfortunately this is a debate about something which while fictional, does have some basis in reality. No there is no real life Spider-man, but the world that it's set in still has the same physical laws. Of course sometimes these physical laws are stretched to accomodate the many feats of the characters involved, but this is usually due to the powers of the fictional characters. If you really want to get into a physics debate, the Flash doesn't make a lot of sense. He can move at close to light speed (I think, but I admit I'm not 100% sure) and by the well known E=mc2, he would collapse under his increasing weight as he doesn't have super strength, as mass increases in proportion to speed. So no we can't set in stone that someone can and can't do something in the comics, but for these debates we have to assume that it's set in our world, since theirs is based on it, but changes so frequently that you could never come to a stisfactory outcome due to the fact that literally anything could happen.I think a question that really needs to be answered is: Why have the trio fans been completely incabale of actually providing solid evidence as to how the trio would win, or come up with a realistic (again realistic in this setting is itself open to debate) scenario in which the trio beats Spidey. It has been shown repeatedly that the comics themselves are so far flung at different times that what has happenend at various times cannot provide a solid basis for debate. For example in the comics, Spidey has sent Wolvie flying at one point (I believe the pic is somewhere in this thread) just by backhanding him, next I've seen (I'm positive that this pic is in here) Wolvie breaking free of the webbing despite having also seen (I dunno where these pics would be) spidey's webbing hold much stronger people than Wolverine. The comics are so inconsistant that simply looking at what characters have done in the past is more or less irrelevant. The only thing that trio fans have said about them winning is that if Wolverine stabbed Spidey, it's over for him. This is true but the keyword here is if. There's no reasonable explanation as to why Spidey would put himself in the position where he could be stabbed. There's no good reason (especially since he now has organic webbing and doesn't have to worry about canisters running out) why spidey would get in range of wolvie's claws, at least no until he's webbed him sufficiently and can just walk up and choke him/throw him in the water (or however he choses to get around Wolverine's healing). Wolverine has no range, and no chance of catching Spidey if Spidey doesn't want to get close. I've sortof dismissed Cap and DD here but there doesn't really seem to be much debate on that fact that they'd be taken out very quickly and at almost no effort from SM. Now unless you can show solid evidence as to why the trio might win (and I don't mean just quoting this post and saying I'm wrong/stupid/biased etc, I mean actually coming up with a way that they could pull it off). I'm not even a particularly big fan of Spidey, I've always rather liked the X-men, but I can see here that this fight would end with Spidey spinging around making silly comments long after the other 3 are dead/immobile.
I have mentioned nothing about Spidey winning "because of something he did one time in the comics", and I have spidey winning. I don't want to hear anything about Wolvering having ripped through webbing once, jumped 3 floors once, stabbed Spidey once or any of that other stuff based solely on comic inconsistencies. If you can't come up with a trio-victory situation based solely on what they can and can't do, as shown by their stats/powers (which are created by Marvel so that's what the creators say they can/can't do) then please don't be offended by people laughing at you and ignoring you for being a fanboy with nothing constructive to bring to the debate.
Originally posted by Wanderer259Originally posted by Metalmanx
You're debating the wrong thing here. The number is the only statistic I have to go by - it means little, as everyone's abilities within a comic book usually goes below or beyond it's alleged given quantative measure - and so I've listed it here. I also don't see where I said, "By the way, Spider-Man's Spider-Sense doesn't tell him where the attack will strike him." It seems you made that up.
Though I sort of already answered this with the statement above, I have to ask, how do you know it's seconds? I only found the .003 seconds statistic from Marvel Directory, which could very well be wrong, but like I said, it's the only number I have to go by and it does make sense. What do you have that disproves this and that shows his Spider-Sense, for example, really goes off an entire three seconds before danger strikes? Comic panels aren't very good for showing time, unless Spidey has said, "I have seconds to react!"
This makes absolutely no sense. How is this different from Wolverine surviving ground zero of nuclear explosion through his healing factor? To me, both instances show the same sort of illogical power expansion, or in other words, PIS.
I didn't argue against this.
First of all, the bomb instance might seem odd, but it's really not, considering Spidey could realize (if going by the only given statistic, .003 seconds before he does anything) one wire is wrong to cut, seeing as how the bomb would explode almost immediately if he did cut it. His Spider-Sense telling him where the wires are located, however, isn't explainable.
I never argued that his Spider-Sense wouldn't let him know of the attacks thrown at him.
Well, with that last part, I've seen Daredevil hear a person's eyes rolling in their head. That's quite a bit of hearing power. It might be explainable that DD could hear someone begin movement to know it's coming. Whether or not he'd be fast enough to do anything about it is debatable, but I'm throwing it out there. It's just as plausible as Spidey supporting an entire 25% of a building.
I'm not following this, exactly. Could or couldn't?
Considering the average human might bench 100 lbs, if not a bit more, take that and multiply it by 12. That's 1200 lbs. I don't know if a human being has ever benched 1200 lbs. 15 mph times 12 would be 180 mph, which Quicksilver supposedly gets to, if even that.
That actually makes perfect sense. In a lifting sense, perhaps not, but in supporting, I don't see why Wolverine can't lock his joints in place or simply put himself in a position to where his body won't bend at the joints, and simply let the fact that his bones are unbreakable, and therefore capable of supporting anything imaginable, do the work for him. If Logan locks his body, extends his arm, and rests the elevator on it, what can it do? That's what he means by mild superhuman strength - his adamantium bones let him pull off a few tricks. [/QUOTE]
On that last part, I was thinking the same thing about his socket not coming out of place.
But to lift AND support a whole evevator with one hand, and 12 people in the other was just a bad representation.
Couldn't on the other part, sorry.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Since you are forcing me t ouse real wolrd logic to prove my point based on the stats it does not invalidate it.We both know that omic book physics and Real world physics are different enough that things that happen in the comic books might never happen in the real world.
And if you were to apply real world physics into the comic book world you'd encounter the same problem that you would whenever the fictional wolrd fudges something for the story.
Cyclops for example would have to have a really strong physioology bordering on super human in order to fire his optic blasts due to newtons third law.
But in order to counter your real world arguments I myself have to use real world physics to deal with your posts.
There is nothing illogical about debating on common ground despite a belief.
Don't blame me if that's what Marvel calls them and if they once again got their numbers wrong and simply used something that sounded good, but turns out to not be as such.
This also raises the question of how much could a human lift back when they initially made these characters?
Only when debating with people that insist on using it.
You realize that none of your points that use real world logic are valid since you keep brushing off my points with a "You said that real world logic has no place." rather than dealing with these points in the first place.
Why would you need to give him 5-10 tons? It's a 200 pound increase.
Now you're sounding exteamly biased here.
Once again despite your claim that you did not:
How am I supposed to logically explain without using real world physics?
And once again why are you not adressing the points rather than brushing them off?
Would you rather I make the same claim you do and just say "He's done it a million times before, therefore it's logical that he can do it again? No, you don't seem to accept that.
You're setting up a double standard here weather you know it or not. But being hypocritical just so your side can win is certainly making you look like a fanboy.
How about if you answer that for me.
I'd love to see your answer.
Which is why I asked you to logically explain the times that SPIDERMAN preforms beyond his abilities.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that I haven't:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm
Why should I bother if you're just going to brush off my posts like you did above?
You haven't read Wolverine's comics!
You're arguing against the trio when you know nothing about them.
That's making you look really bad.
And you haven't logically explained Spiderman useing his sense beyond his given statistic, you big ol' hypocrite you! 😛
Actually without it he's lowered to what Marvel classifies as a peak human.
you can make claims like this if you want, but since you've porven a lack of knowledge of the character I have a difficult time believing you.
And you like wise for your characters. I'm sorry but you really haven't proven anything either other than a double standard, and a desperate attempt to brush off points without actually countering them.
So how is the trio winnning?
Even if he was a mild superhuman *peak cough*, how are they winning.
I see you've explained EVERYTHING else.
Originally posted by Creshosk
I've really seen nothing other than"Spiderman is superior so he wins."
NO its been explained with wanderer time and time again, YOU spend sooo much time arguing everything BUT the debate that you end up missing the point.
I would vote on the superior one, wouldnt' you? 😉
Originally posted by Creshosk
Said the pot to the kettle.
Such a ****ing hypocrite, this is why I'm glad I burned you to put me on your ignore list. This is how you manage to stay on a thread you are losing, you start ***** tactics. I took care of that though.
He put up an INDEPTH response, and you refused to see it, shot it down like king kong, and then said there was nothing? No attempt to argue logically or nothing, you want to debate, but put nothing on the table, you have no premise or nothing, just arguing for the sake of it.
Our side is making much better explanations than yours, excuse wanderer.
Originally posted by Creshosk
The martial artist is to explain his speed. In comics things are a bit more exagerated.They haven't updated to keep up with the real world, but this does not detract from my point.
Why do you keep posting obvious shit, NO DUH things are exaggerated, now why in the hell did you say wolverine could become invisible then?
Originally posted by Creshosk
Captain America is a peak human, and in the 7 steps for stats system In strength Captain America is a 3, Wolverine is a 4. and 4 is "superhuman". Starting at 800 pounds.Now if the stats were to be updated then peak humans should be raised to 1000 lbs, and Wolverine being above human before the change should be raised to 1200 to match.
And remember Captain America is peak human according to Marvel's stats. And Wolverine is very baselive superhuman, according to marvels stats.
You've proven nothing but the scale is a poor representation.
Cap is as strong or stronger than wolvie, and he's on a lower scale, numerical values mean nothing, its how much he can lift.
Wolverine is a peak human, thats saying all characters in that range lift the same.
http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm
Originally posted by Creshosk
Again, you are trying to apply real world martial arts to Comic Book martial arts.
You are trying to give martial arts too much cred, on a character that hacks and slashes.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Comic book martial arts are not the same as Real world martial arts. If a real world martial artist is able to preform exceptional feats in the real world, then in the comic book world it only makes sense to have them be amplified up.
Then why do you bring up this bullshit that he's done this and that for soooo long, and then bring up stuff like "a martial artist hits with xxxx force".
Where is wolverine's martial arts, they don't make him invisible, like you once said.
"So now it's up to me to provide your arguments for you? 🙄"
Weve' been doing that the whole time, while you just shoot them down, you don't provide much of anything but spam.
Originally posted by Creshosk
But we have a number to apply to the spider sense, the way its been described and the w ay its been used in the comic books are two different matters.
http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm
Level 4 is the start of the super human range. According to Marvel's stats. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats because the artist won't have time to illustrate everything bothering peter, don't you realize that the spider sense would go off everytime he walked down the street? Or if he walked in a room and a pencil was accidentally pointed at him, be obvious now...
It doesn't matter, is he stronger than cap?
Originally posted by Creshosk
Have you even read Wolverine's comics?
Originally posted by Creshosk
If not then why are you arguing against characters you don't know about?
Originally posted by Creshosk
And I don't deem any of your arguments as credible because you haven't done what you've been asking for. What's worse is you just told me to logically explain YOUR arguments FOR you. . .
I've still had no premise from you, and on top of that, you don't explain ANYTHING to well.
All this is, is another spiderman vs wolverine for you.
I expected nothing else, pathetic.
Originally posted by Pointinel
^why must u always get sarcastic fam?what? life aint treating you right?
Why must you guys always bother me, what is with the logan boys?
Noone on this entire board is sarcastic then?
I'm getting tired of him doing nothing, but argue for the sake of his bitterness on Ock vs Wolverine, and Spiderman vs Wolverine...
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I like how no one has answered Farseer's question yet. Or tried to counter him at all for that matter.
exactly, thats all everyone but wanderer does here, and its pathetic...
They don't say a dmaned thing about HOW they win, but just that they can win, and then the fanboys say we are fanboys.
Whatever...