Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
So its a tie, because spiderman can't beat wolverine.Wolverine is more inferior, hasn't he been on a team, spiderman and wolverine aren't a tie.
If spiderman beat the SS, don't you think that is better than beating wolverine?
Spiderman can web him up, pin him under a car, he can rip his organs out, smother him... etc.
when did spidey beat the ss?
are you aware wolvie gutted him...so to speak.
Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
He doesn't have to die to lose, wolverine can be webbed and knocked out.Wolverine is knocked out like every other comic.
Spiderman can dodge him very easily.
If wolverine is webbed where he cannot use his claws, he cannot break free.
So I ask again, do you know what a concussion is?
please provide us with this plethora of comics in which wolverine is knocked out...I must see them all.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Not true. The spidey sense reacts much sooner than that. And it actually does tell him where the attack will be located. How do you think that he is able to defend himself when his back is turned. If it just warned him that the attack was coming from behind, he could try to counter high, only to completely miss because the attack was low. But that's not what happens. The spidey sense alerts him as to where and when the attack will happen, and depending on the situation, sometimes seconds in advance. Other times it's not as soon, but that's usually in a heated fist fight or something. His spidey sense still tells him such things like whether it will be a kick to his lower body, or a punch to his upper body, or vice versa both ways.In terms of objects (cars, debris, etc.), his spidey sense usually reacts second(s) before the attack (collision, whatever) occurs, which is more than enough time for him to avoid it.
Hell, his Spidey sense even alerts him of potential dangers that aren't even dangerous at the moment. There was this one time (this is just an example, this has happened many times before) when he was at a party with MJ, and his Spidey sense was going crazy when he was next to these two guys. All they were doing was just talking and being social and stuff. But he knew from his spidey sense that there was something up with them, and that they would be dangerous at a much later time.
He's also fought off a tough opponent with powers similar to his without even looking at her. He had to look away so as to not become hypnotized, one of her powers. So he just avoided looking at her at all as much as possible, relying solely on his spider sense to fight her. Which seemed to work fine, since he was still schooling her.
I've even seen Spiderman defuse bombs using his spidey sense. It helps him with everything. He would definitely know of any and all attacks that are out to endanger him.
and yet you deem none of this as PIS in any way?
Originally posted by MetalmanxYou mean in his own comics, right?
I honestly don't. It's been shown time and time again that the spider sense has allowed him to know when and where an attack will happen. These things don't just happen once. They happen on a daily basis with Spidey.
Originally posted by jinzin
saying it's a one in a trillion chance doesn't do much if anything to actually explain HOW it happened....how does a spider survive that much radioactivity? how does it transfer it's own attributes to peter?
how does peter aquire physical attribues, yet no fear of newspapers, inability to get out of a shower, or thirst for fluids and/or blood? how come one of his super powers ISN'T spider venom? or a spider bite? how does he adhere to walls?
Jinzin..your rationale is absurd, and your reasoning skills are greatly lacking. The point Mister was trying to make is that even within the realm of comics, there's a certain degree of logic and order. Being an entertainment medium, comic books will sometimes break the mold of this "logical order" using a plot device, to keep a character's book fresh & interesting...and to, well..help sell their comics.
"Common sense" dictates that not all plot devices should be taken into account when debating, specifically ones that do not have statistical data supporting them. This has been mentioned to you multiple times throughout this thread..but alas, your simple mind still doesn't seem to get it.
dd has the same stats as captain america and he fought cap to a stalemate before...so I assume...peak human based on that alone...given his superpower he's above human in some aspects as well....
As I've asked you and others before, what "statistical information" do you have to support your argument as to how the Trio will win? Thus far I haven't seen you give any such evidence. Your arguments continue to be of the rationale of "well it happened." This type of rationale is easily rebutted by an argument of the same type by the opposing side. In addition to this, you/others have yet to come up with a plausible scenario as to how a victory will be accomplished. With those things being stated, the end result of all the illogical speel and lack of statistical information does nothing but create a nonsensical argument that only serves the purpose of validating the arguer as being a fanboy.
I have disgraced comic book characters by saying they should remain COMIC BOOK characters? sorry but I don't quite follow that logic...I mean it's like this, you're familiar with the real world logic etxc because another one doesn't exist...
well I'm familiar with comic book characters in the MU that are (key word here) "completely" bound to real world logic and physics.... answer me this do peak humans take superhuman amounts of punishment? do they do it on a fairly regular basis?
if you say no you're lying, if you say yes than you've just argued against yourself at who's being the true disgrace to comic books...no offense but the premise of that conclussion is illogical...we are either debating real world guys or we are not..if it's real world, spidey doesn't exist... if it is not..these guys are fully capable of both taking and rolling wih multiple spidey hits...
and more than fully capable of taking him down.
Without any reason/order present, their is no basis to debate by. A simple "Well it happened"..isn't a reasonable/logical/well thought out argument by any means. Use your basic reasoning skills(if you have any) to determine which "historical" evidence should be considered a plot device, and to determine which evidence should be considered "credible." However, if you decide to continue debating in the illogical fashion that you are now, you will only consistently prove yourself to be the fanboy.
Fin
Originally posted by whobdamandogand things that don't fit the story are discarded.
Jinzin..your rationale is absurd, and your reasoning skills are greatly lacking. The point Mister was trying to make is that even within the realm of comics, there's a certain degree of logic and order. Being an entertainment medium, comic books will sometimes break the mold of this "logical order" using a plot device, to keep a character's book fresh & interesting...and to, well..help sell their comics.
Take Cyclops vs Newton's thrid law for example.
Originally posted by whobdamandogand the question raised which plot devices are valid to use despite them contradicting the statistical data?
"Common sense" dictates that not all plot devices should be taken into account when debating, specifically ones that do not have statistical data supporting them. This has been mentioned to you multiple times throughout this thread..but alas, your simple mind still doesn't seem to get it.
Originally posted by whobdamandogFunny, how only the statistics that support one side are allowed, and if that side has feats that outdo their stats then those comic feats are accepted and the other not.
As I've asked you and others before, what "statistical information" do you have to support your argument as to how the Trio will win? Thus far I haven't seen you give any such evidence. Your arguments continue to be of the rationale of "well it happened." This type of rationale is easily rebutted by an argument of the same type by the opposing side. In addition to this, you/others have yet to come up with a plausible scenario as to how a victory will be accomplished. With those things being stated, the end result of all the illogical speel and lack of statistical information does nothing but create a nonsensical argument that only serves the purpose of validating the arguer as being a fanboy.
Originally posted by whobdamandogBut you're debating in a hypocritical fashion which ios just as if not more illogical than what Jinzin is doing.
Without any reason/order present, their is no basis to debate by. A simple "Well it happened"..isn't a reasonable/logical/well thought out argument by any means. Use your basic reasoning skills(if you have any) to determine which "historical" evidence should be considered a plot device, and to determine which evidence should be considered "credible." However, if you decide to continue debating in the illogical fashion that you are now, you will only consistently prove yourself to be the fanboy.
Spiderman's spider sense feats vs. Spiderman's Spidersense Statistics comes to mind.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I honestly don't. It's been shown time and time again that the spider sense has allowed him to know when and where an attack will happen. These things don't just happen once. They happen on a daily basis with Spidey.
on average:the general direction of the attack split nseconds (if that) before it happens...
if his spidersense was as amped up as his highest end feats inpmly than he would be able to stop crime BEFORE it even happened..he would be able to "spider sense" a fight before it took place..and avoid being tricked or trapped as he has done before he was put in said position.....you don't find this odd?
Almost throughout the entire day, Spiderman's spider sense is going off. Pretty much constantly. But it varies in importance. He gets a MUCH stronger feeling for danger that is iminent. He ignores the ones that aren't very powerful, such as if a hornet was flying around his head (Well, then his normal human emotion would probably kick in I'm sure) or, like mentioned earlier, a snowball flying towards him.
So, now to answer your question about walking into traps. Actually yes, I do find it strange sometimes that he does do that. But then you must remember that sometimes he has to ignore his senses in order to achieve a greater goal. Sometimes to find his opponent, or to help rescue someone in trouble.
Then there are the times that sometimes there are just too many things going on at once (sometimes when he fights the Sinister Six), that he can't avoid everything. Though he usually is able to dodge everything quite well.
Originally posted by Creshosk
and the question raised which plot devices are valid to use despite them contradicting the statistical data?
The ones supported by statistical data...or where a "logical" arguments can be applied to support them. Wolverine moving faster than the eye can see, jumping three stories in the air, having enough strength to break steel cable, or similar "historical incidents" are not supported by statisical data, and you/others have as of yet not provided any logical/reasonable arguments to validate them.
Funny, how only the statistics that support one side are allowed, and if that side has feats that outdo their stats then those comic feats are accepted and the other not.
I can come up with multiple "feats" for any of the characters in this battle, that still doesn't take away from the necessity of having a logical argument to support them.
But you're debating in a hypocritical fashion which ios just as if not more illogical than what Jinzin is doing.
No I am not. I've never stated or implied anywhere that SM is infallible. However based "statistical information", I've validated his superiority in strength, speed, agility, and long range attack capabilities over the Trio. I've consistently supported these statistics with "historical information" taken from the comics, weeding out "plot devices" that couldn't be supported by logical arguments.
Spiderman's spider sense feats vs. Spiderman's Spidersense Statistics comes to mind.
I've mentioned multiple times that SM can be hit. This usually happens when he doesn't react fast enough to the the spider sense. Or against opponents whose speeds are GREATER than his own.
My argument has been that given the stipulations of this scenario(bloodlusted..any means necessary), and based on SM's vaunted speed and sixth sense, he would be a difficult opponent for many to hit, particularly for those who are SLOWER than himself.
Cap/DD/Wolvie are significantly SLOWER than SM. Regardless of how heightened their senses may be, they do not have precog. They don't move at Superhuman speeds. They don't have superhuman strength. Their stats validate this. Their comics validate this.(ie you do not see Cap/DD/Wolvie consistently being labeled as being a blur when fighting, lifting up building structures, or being able to use a "sixth sense" to determine when an attack will happen)
To argue without any known boundaries/limits to what a character can/can't do, or to present plot devices with no logical arguments supporting them is a silly way to debate. Again I ask you, Jinzin, Mercilous, or any others who use like minded rationale..If you don't want to argue applying some sort of logic/reason to your arguments, What's the point to debating?
Originally posted by whobdamandogBecause he's a martial artist, and has a mild superhuman level strength
The ones supported by statistical data...or where a "logical" arguments can be applied to support them. Wolverine moving faster than the eye can see, jumping three stories in the air, having enough strength to break steel cable, or similar "historical incidents" are not supported by statisical data, and you/others have as of yet not provided any logical/reasonable arguments to validate them.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Oh, I've seen real people moving their hands so fast that people don't see it before they have told of it. They had to slow down the film when they were making films with Bruce Lee. Magicians move their hands so fast that people don't notice it. Martial artists do that all the time.
Originally posted by whobdamandogWhy don't we ever get explinations for spidey characters preforming feats beyond their stats?
I can come up with multiple "feats" for any of the characters in this battle, that still doesn't take away from the necessity of having a logical argument to support them.
Originally posted by whobdamandogYou mean like his Spidersense's speed?
No I am not. I've never stated or implied anywhere that SM is infallible. However based "statistical information", I've validated his superiority in strength, speed, agility, and long range attack capabilities over the Trio. I've consistently supported these statistics with "historical information" taken from the comics, weeding out "plot devices" that couldn't be supported by logical arguments.
Originally posted by whobdamandogOr when his sense is distractd like when DD hit him?
I've mentioned multiple times that SM can be hit. This usually happens when he doesn't react fast enough to the the spider sense. Or against opponents whose speeds are GREATER than his own.
Originally posted by whobdamandogWolverine has mild super human strength.
My argument has been that given the stipulations of this scenario(bloodlusted..any means necessary), and based on SM's vaunted speed and sixth sense, he would be a difficult opponent for many to hit, particularly for those who are SLOWER than himself.[/quote but they can't distract his sense or hit him when he underestimates them?[QUOTE=4712717]Originally posted by whobdamandog
Cap/DD/Wolvie are significantly SLOWER than SM. Regardless of how heightened their senses may be, they do not have precog. They don't move at Superhuman speeds. They don't have superhuman strength.
Originally posted by whobdamandogWolverine is a blur consistantly.
Their stats validate this. Their comics validate this.(ie you do not see Cap/DD/Wolvie consistently being labeled as being a blur when fighting, lifting up building structures, or being able to use a "sixth sense" to determine when an attack will happen)
Originally posted by whobdamandogWhat's the point of denating skewed or one sided where one is allowed to preform beyond their abilites and the others aren't?
To argue without any known boundaries/limits to what a character can/can't do, or to present plot devices with no logical arguments supporting them is a silly way to debate. Again I ask you, Jinzin, Mercilous, or any others who use like minded rationale..If you don't want to argue applying some sort of logic/reason to your arguments, What's the point to debating?
Originally posted by Creshosk
Because he's a martial artist, and has a mild superhuman level strength
Jesus, I can't stand when they make shit up.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Why don't we ever get explinations for spidey characters preforming feats beyond their stats?
Spidey characters? We are talking about spiderman, where is he doing this shit beyond his "stats".
Spiderman is FAR beyond consistant over wolverine, and you are tangeting, because where has this "shit" been brought up?
Originally posted by Creshosk
You mean like his Spidersense's speed?
Precog as it is? Answering everything with a question, with no explanation or anything, you could NEVER win a debate, cause even if you are right, noone will know why.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Or when his sense is distractd like when DD hit him?
see above, using feats that contrast him as usual.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Wolverine has mild super human strength.
Where in the hell are you getting this.
I swear, he was posting pics in the game forum about wolverine holding elevators with one arm, wolverine is PEAK HUMAN.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Wolverine is a blur consistantly.
Why in the hell did you say he could become invisible then?
I move my hand in my face, thats a blur.
Why in the hell do you post this tripe?
Originally posted by Creshosk
What's the point of denating skewed or one sided where one is allowed to preform beyond their abilites and the others aren't?
Where has he?
You NEVER explain anything, you are like a housewife, no premise or anything, you bring nothing to the table, but like to debate.
How are they going to win? You seem to argue EVERY****ING thing but that point...
[/quote]Originally posted by Metalmanx
Not true. The spidey sense reacts much sooner than that. And it actually does tell him where the attack will be located. How do you think that he is able to defend himself when his back is turned. If it just warned him that the attack was coming from behind, he could try to counter high, only to completely miss because the attack was low. But that's not what happens. The spidey sense alerts him as to where and when the attack will happen, and depending on the situation, sometimes seconds in advance. Other times it's not as soon, but that's usually in a heated fist fight or something. His spidey sense still tells him such things like whether it will be a kick to his lower body, or a punch to his upper body, or vice versa both ways.[/quote]
You're debating the wrong thing here. The number is the only statistic I have to go by - it means little, as everyone's abilities within a comic book usually goes below or beyond it's alleged given quantative measure - and so I've listed it here. I also don't see where I said, "By the way, Spider-Man's Spider-Sense doesn't tell him where the attack will strike him." It seems you made that up.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
In terms of objects (cars, debris, etc.), his spidey sense usually reacts second(s) before the attack (collision, whatever) occurs, which is more than enough time for him to avoid it.
Though I sort of already answered this with the statement above, I have to ask, how do you know it's seconds? I only found the .003 seconds statistic from Marvel Directory, which could very well be wrong, but like I said, it's the only number I have to go by and it does make sense. What do you have that disproves this and that shows his Spider-Sense, for example, really goes off an entire three seconds before danger strikes? Comic panels aren't very good for showing time, unless Spidey has said, "I have seconds to react!"
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Hell, his Spidey sense even alerts him of potential dangers that aren't even dangerous at the moment. There was this one time (this is just an example, this has happened many times before) when he was at a party with MJ, and his Spidey sense was going crazy when he was next to these two guys. All they were doing was just talking and being social and stuff. But he knew from his spidey sense that there was something up with them, and that they would be dangerous at a much later time.
This makes absolutely no sense. How is this different from Wolverine surviving ground zero of nuclear explosion through his healing factor? To me, both instances show the same sort of illogical power expansion, or in other words, PIS.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
He's also fought off a tough opponent with powers similar to his without even looking at her. He had to look away so as to not become hypnotized, one of her powers. So he just avoided looking at her at all as much as possible, relying solely on his spider sense to fight her. Which seemed to work fine, since he was still schooling her.
I didn't argue against this.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I've even seen Spiderman defuse bombs using his spidey sense. It helps him with everything. He would definitely know of any and all attacks that are out to endanger him.
First of all, the bomb instance might seem odd, but it's really not, considering Spidey could realize (if going by the only given statistic, .003 seconds before he does anything) one wire is wrong to cut, seeing as how the bomb would explode almost immediately if he did cut it. His Spider-Sense telling him where the wires are located, however, isn't explainable.
I never argued that his Spider-Sense wouldn't let him know of the attacks thrown at him.
Originally posted by Whobedamandog
Their comics validate this.(ie you do not see Cap/DD/Wolvie consistently being labeled as being a blur when fighting, lifting up building structures, or being able to use a "sixth sense" to determine when an attack will happen).
Well, with that last part, I've seen Daredevil hear a person's eyes rolling in their head. That's quite a bit of hearing power. It might be explainable that DD could hear someone begin movement to know it's coming. Whether or not he'd be fast enough to do anything about it is debatable, but I'm throwing it out there. It's just as plausible as Spidey supporting an entire 25% of a building.
Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Why do you guys post this tripe, you were the same person who said that people could send other people flying.They don't move 12x faster, stronger, and more agile than a normal human, because a human could attain that.
I'm not following this, exactly. Could or couldn't?
Considering the average human might bench 100 lbs, if not a bit more, take that and multiply it by 12. That's 1200 lbs. I don't know if a human being has ever benched 1200 lbs. 15 mph times 12 would be 180 mph, which Quicksilver supposedly gets to, if even that.
Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Where in the hell are you getting this.I swear, he was posting pics in the game forum about wolverine holding elevators with one arm, wolverine is PEAK HUMAN.
That actually makes perfect sense. In a lifting sense, perhaps not, but in supporting, I don't see why Wolverine can't lock his joints in place or simply put himself in a position to where his body won't bend at the joints, and simply let the fact that his bones are unbreakable, and therefore capable of supporting anything imaginable, do the work for him. If Logan locks his body, extends his arm, and rests the elevator on it, what can it do? That's what he means by mild superhuman strength - his adamantium bones let him pull off a few tricks.
Originally posted by Creshosk
Because he's a martial artist, and has a mild superhuman level strength
Once again Creshosk you amaze me with the articulation presented in your posts, however, once again you also amaze me with the innaccuracy of the information you present, and the absurdity of your rationalizations made from this invalid data.
Did you know that Olympic squatters have been shown to lift 1000 lbs from squatting positions? Wolverine's adamantium skeleton enables him to lift objects in the "700 - 800" lb range, keep in mind..he does this with maximum effort. This is not superhuman to any degree, in fact..its below "peek human levels."
Equating martial arts to enabling one to perform "Superhuman feats" is rediculous. Knowing martial arts does not make one physically stronger, however, it helps in the application of one's strength. This doesn't make it possible for an individual to lift cars over their head, stop a speeding car with a Karate strike, or jump 3 stories in the air. If you believe in the plausibilty of a "real world" martial artist performing these types of feats, then you've been watching too much DBZ and Kung fu movies my friend.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler but plagerized by Creshosk
Oh, I've seen real people moving their hands so fast that people don't see it before they have told of it. They had to slow down the film when they were making films with Bruce Lee. Magicians move their hands so fast that people don't notice it. Martial artists do that all the time.
It's intresting that you bring up this "real world logic" argument, seeing as how its contradictory to your initial argument of it not being applied in the "comic book world." However for the sake of being fair, I'll except it as a plausible argument. Now please take into account that the greatest "real world" Martial artists have not demonstrated the ability to dodge bullets, jump 3 stories in the air, or perform similar superhuman feats. So if your argument is that the Trio can move as fast as a "real world" Martial artist, then I'd have to say..that would be significantly slower than any movement demonstrated by SM in the "comic book world."
Why don't we ever get explinations for spidey characters preforming feats beyond their stats?
Simple...because you don't provide them.
You mean like his Spidersense's speed?
I've never attested to the speed of the sense in any post. All I've done is mention that it is a form of precognition, and that it is yet another "superhuman ability" that the Trio do not have.
Or when his sense is distractd like when DD hit him?
Now that is a plausible argument.
Wolverine has mild super human strength.
No he does not.
Wolverine is a blur consistantly.
No he is not. And more importantly, you have given nothing statistical to validate his ability to move at "Flash-like" speeds. To state that he consistently moves "faster than the eye can see" means that you are either.
a) lying
b) a fanboy
c) greatly misinformed
d) All of the above.
Call me crazy, but I'm betting the answer is "d."
What's the point of denating skewed or one sided where one is allowed to preform beyond their abilites and the others aren't?
Debate however you wish, but remember to support your evidence with valid/logical arguments and statistical information..particularly if you wish others to deem them as credible.
Originally posted by Wanderer259
Well, with that last part, I've seen Daredevil hear a person's eyes rolling in their head. That's quite a bit of hearing power. It might be explainable that DD could hear someone begin movement to know it's coming. Whether or not he'd be fast enough to do anything about it is debatable, but I'm throwing it out there. It's just as plausible as Spidey supporting an entire 25% of a building.
Now that's both a logical and plausible explanition regarding DD's powers.
I like the fact that you actually attributed this ability to a heightened "physical" sense, rather than do what others have done and label it "precog." Well done, however, as you mentioned as heightened as DD's senses are he is not faster or more agile than SM, so it will definately pose a significant problem for him to dodge an attack during battle, even if he is able to hear, feel, or even smell the attack coming.