Originally posted by whobdamandog
Finally you've come up with a logical scenario....I concede... 😆
I thought you would like that answer. How's it going, man? Long time, no argue.
As I was trying to point out, my scenario simply pokes fun at your assumption that this fight takes place in an area where Spidey could jump up on top of anything. Nowhere does it state that this fight will be in Spider-Man's friendly neighborhood (which, btw, is also Cap and DD's neighborhood). Why couldn't this fight take place in an open war zone in the middle of an artillery barrage, or in the frozen woods of Canada? I don't see anywhere where it says "this fight takes place in a place that the Spider-Man fans will be comfortable with."
Either way, he'll still lose. I'm just saying...
Originally posted by Tormentor_2004
I dont know how Spidy's gonna kill Wolv. He'll handle Capt Amer and DareDevil but not so sure with Wolv and his healing factor. He cant critically damage Logan
except by killing him.......... that's what you meant right? killing him? right?......... with the suffocation or the broken neck .......... or the suffocation....... maybe even drowning......... depending on the environment
Originally posted by Capt.JK
Why couldn't this fight take place in an open war zone in the middle of an artillery barrage,
i actually think this would suit Spidey more than the others...... he'd get plenty of warning to get out of the way of the artillery, Cap and co would be at much greater risk
Originally posted by Capt.JK
I thought you would like that answer. How's it going, man? Long time, no argue.As I was trying to point out, my scenario simply pokes fun at your assumption that this fight takes place in an area where Spidey could jump up on top of [B]anything
. Nowhere does it state that this fight will be in Spider-Man's friendly neighborhood (which, btw, is also Cap and DD's neighborhood). Why couldn't this fight take place in an open war zone in the middle of an artillery barrage, or in the frozen woods of Canada? I don't see anywhere where it says "this fight takes place in a place that the Spider-Man fans will be comfortable with."Either way, he'll still lose. I'm just saying... [/B]
Jk..good to have you back..
Well I don't think Matches originally gave a setting for the fight, so I assumed it would be in the city, where the characters usually reside.
However, regardless of the setting, I still believe SM would have the advantage in this battle. All he really has to do is distance himself from the Trio. I mean..come on..the guy can leap about 3 stories away in a single bound. And don't forget to take the spider sense, super speed, etc, etc, into account. Once he's far enough away, all he has to do is catch them with some webs and its pretty much all over from that point. And yes..I know...they won't just stand there and allow themselves to be hit with the webbing, however..faster/agiler/stronger people then Cap/DD/Wolvie have had difficult times not getting caught in it.
Originally posted by Linkalicious
The farther away he is...the harder it will be for him to hit them with webbing.These 3 "street" level characters are more than capable of taking Spiderman down.
True...but you also have to look at it the other way around...that way being...
The farther away he is...the harder it will be for the Trio to hit him...
Spider man is more than capable of taking down "street" level characters...(I mean he takes down peeps on the Trio's level all the time, however, they are not icons) His long range attacks are much more effective than any of the Trio's.
And I'm sorry, but Cap and DD aren't going to tag him with the Shield and Billy Club unless he's at close range. Their best bet would be to try and close him in, as JK noted earlier. This would be a difficult task to do however, based on the reasons mentioned in previous posts.
I agree that they won't be successful at using their weapons long range, but I don't think Spiderman will be effective at a long range against these characters either.
Everyone of them has teamed up with Spiderman before and they know his abilities. Of course, this holds true on the otherside as well, but who is better at using knowledge of another character against them....Spiderman or Captain America?
As you said, these are Icons, not just "street level" guys. Captain America fights street level guys 20 at a time...that's SUPER no matter how many time you label him as "peak."
Spiderman will never be able to just flat out "leap over" them without either getting hit when he lands...or right before. There are three of them, and all of them would work as a coehesive unit.
Any one of these characters, alone, can and has stood up to Spiderman in the past. I don't see any reason to believe that they couldn't defeat him while working as a team.
Originally posted by Linkalicious
I agree that they won't be successful at using their weapons long range, but I don't think Spiderman will be effective at a long range against these characters either.
I disagree. SM has proven very effective against multiple opponents with the webbing. Remember he's not just limited to spraying the webbing in one simple strand, he can also manipulate it in a variety of ways to form many different offensive/defensive objects.(shields, nets, bats, gliders, stickly glue, etc, etc) Many of these objects could be used from long range to greatly incapacitate the Trio.
Everyone of them has teamed up with Spiderman before and they know his abilities. Of course, this holds true on the otherside as well, but who is better at using knowledge of another character against them....Spiderman or Captain America?
Well that point is really open to opinion. In my opinion, Spider Man is just as capable as Captain America in using his knowledge of other characters against them. And he's proven this in many of his battles.
As you said, these are Icons, not just "street level" guys. Captain America fights street level guys 20 at a time...that's SUPER no matter how many time you label him as "peak."Spiderman will never be able to just flat out "leap over" them without either getting hit when he lands...or right before. There are three of them, and all of them would work as a coehesive unit.
Any one of these characters, alone, can and has stood up to Spiderman in the past. I don't see any reason to believe that they couldn't defeat him while working as a team.
Whether they are Icons or not, the fact remains that they are still outclassed physically and ability wise. By no means would this be an easy battle for SM, however, it wouldn't be his toughest either. He's taken on much greater opponents, during much more difficult situations, and still managed to come out on top.
Also keep in mind that in many of his most difficult battles, he still is not going all out for the kill, but merely trying to incapacitate his opponent by using non fatal means. Take this restraint away from SM..and I believe you have an extremely deadly opponent, especially for those who can not match his physical prowess/abilities.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
I disagree. SM has proven very effective against multiple opponents with the webbing. Remember he's not just limited to spraying the webbing in one simple strand, he can also manipulate it in a variety of ways to form many different offensive/defensive objects.(shields, nets, bats, gliders, stickly glue, etc, etc) Many of these objects could be used from long range to greatly incapacitate the Trio.
If Spiderman were to use his webbing as a glue or to just flat out web up the other characters, it wouldn't be all that effective because with their weapons....every one of these characters can get the other one out of the webbing while the third member battles Spidey.
That's the advantage of a 3 on 1 vs. a 2 on 1.
Well that point is really open to opinion. In my opinion, Spider Man is just as capable as Captain America in using his knowledge of other characters against them. And he's proven this in many of his battles.
It's not opinion. It's a time proven fact that Captain America is the best leader/schemer on the goodguys side. Spiderman is exceptionally good at this for one individual, but he has his work cut out for him because he has to plan an offsensive against 3 guys whereas Captian America only has to plan for one person.
Tactically the 3 have a very decisive advantage over Spidey in this area.
Whether they are Icons or not, the fact remains that they are still outclassed physically and ability wise. By no means would this be an easy battle for SM, however, it wouldn't be his toughest either. He's taken on much greater opponents, during much more difficult situations, and still managed to come out on top.
Whether they are physically inferior to Spiderman or not, comic books have proven that he won't run circles around Daredevil or Captain America. And all 3 of these characters DO have sufficient enough strength to knock out Spiderman with a direct blow to the head. (which isn't easy...but i didn't say it'd be an easy fight)
And just for my amusement. What greater opponents and under which more difficult situations has Spiderman ever been left alone with 3 characters of this caliber? These three could most certainly lay waiste to the Sinister Six.
Also keep in mind that in many of his most difficult battles, he still is not going all out for the kill, but merely trying to incapacitate his opponent by using non fatal means. Take this restraint away from SM..and I believe you have an extremely deadly opponent, especially for those who can not match his physical prowess/abilities.
Same holds true for these three characters. They've all taken beatings from opponents much stronger than Spiderman and managed to get up and keep fighting. The problem Spiderman has in this fight is that none of these character quit...they just keep getting up no matter how ridiculous the blow they just took. This is why I consider them "super" human instead of just "peak" human. Not for physical strength, but for durability.
Originally posted by Linkalicious
Any one of these characters, alone, can and has stood up to Spiderman in the past. I don't see any reason to believe that they couldn't defeat him while working as a team.
here's a good reason......... posted by you
Originally posted by Linkalicious
I'll take the thousands of times Spiderman has dodged bullets, arrows, lasers, and general lethal threats with his physical ability over the handful of times Spiderman has been hit by a street level character anyday.
here's another........... posted by you
Originally posted by Linkalicious
What happened in Secret Wars between Spiderman and the X-men was completely legit. No one on the team they assembled could touch him in such close quarters.
😄
Originally posted by Linkalicious
....every one of these characters can get the other one out of the webbing while the third member battles Spidey.
It's not opinion. It's a time proven fact that Captain America is the best leader/schemer on the goodguys side.
With preptime yes, I think he could set up a trap, that could work, but without preptime ? He'll be shouting something like "Get him guys".
Spiderman is exceptionally good at this for one individual, but he has his work cut out for him because he has to plan an offsensive against 3 guys whereas Captian America only has to plan for one person.
Tactically the 3 have a very decisive advantage over Spidey in this area.
Whether they are physically inferior to Spiderman or not, comic books have proven that he won't run circles around Daredevil or Captain America. And all 3 of these characters DO have sufficient enough strength to knock out Spiderman with a direct blow to the head. (which isn't easy...but i didn't say it'd be an easy fight)
Nobody likes it to see CA or DD being knocked down with one punch - the way it should be written - because they have not the durability to take a powerpunch from Spider-Man, and can not avoid Spider-Man's punches for long (to say the least).
These three could most certainly lay waiste to the Sinister Six.
The problem Spiderman has in this fight is that none of these character quit...they just keep getting up no matter how ridiculous the blow they just took.
Originally posted by who?-kid
How is DD going to free a web-covered CA ?
His billy club has a grappling hook that has a sharp edge. Just like Cap and Wolverine...he'd cut it.
In this fight, that doesn't mean a thing. Not because I said so, but because CA can't handle an unpredictable, all-dodging and fast moving enemy such as Spider-Man.With preptime yes, I think he could set up a trap, that [b]could work, but without preptime ? He'll be shouting something like "Get him guys".
With prep-time Cap could easily trap Spiderman. You're reading too much into prep time. Just like Batman, Captain America is fully capable of of creating a plan on the fly.
What important information could he offer? First off, Spiderman is going to keep his distance and use his webbing a whole lot. There's a head start.
Yeah, and Spider-Man can hit everything that moves, and the others have to watch out for each other lol.
Yeah, especially when SM is standing on a wall 40 feet high lol, and is covering them all up in web (faster opponents have trouble avoiding the webattacks, and SM is as much a master with his web as CA is with his shield).
Spiderman is 40 feet in the air. These guys are perfectly capable of finding cover or in a worst case scenario....freeing up a webbed up comrade. Street level villains are the idiots that stare up at Spidey while he's on a wall....Icon Heroes aren't low level villains.
Yes, he's webbed up faster than these 3, but he hasn't webbed up all 3 at once.
You know as well as I do, that in most cases, when a mid-level character as Spider-Man faces a popular streetlevel character as for example CA or DD, Spider-Man all of a sudden loses half of his powers and has actually a hard time hitting his opponent (in most cases, he doesn't even use his web, don't ask me why, ask the so-called writers).
Of course I realized that, why do you think I've been able to put up a 1/2 way decent argument. If Spiderman didn't somehow lower himself to these guys level in every comic appearance....then there wouldn't be an argument to make.
Nobody likes it to see CA or DD being knocked down with one punch - the way it should be written - because they have not the durability to take a powerpunch from Spider-Man, and can not avoid Spider-Man's punches for long (to say the least).
It is written the way it "should be" written. Every one of these characters regularly gets hit harder by opponents stronger than Spiderman and the get up everytime. Like I said...they aren't "peak" human...they've got to be "super" human.
I know it's cool to mock the Sinister Six because they sometimes act like a bunch of children, but the fact remains that - depending on the members of course - the Sinister Six are VERY dangerous.
Originally posted by Linkalicious
If Spiderman were to use his webbing as a glue or to just flat out web up the other characters, it wouldn't be all that effective because with their weapons....
Unlike the webbing, the Trio's weapons would prove ineffective against the glue. It's very similar to the gooey substance that Paste Pot Pete uses..(if your familiar with him) It's a very sticky-gooey substance, and as its been demonstrated in the past, one can't really slice through it. Once one is stuck in it, it's very difficult for any one without superstrength to get "unstuck" from it.
The webbing itself would still prove a difficult task for the Trio to get themselves out of. None of them are strong enough to break the web, if there hands, arms, and feet were engulfed by it. Wolverine might be able to sheath his claws and cut himself free, but keep in mind...in order to do this, he would have to have a considerable amount of leverage. Same goes for Cap and his shield, except Cap would have an even more difficult time, seeing as how the shield is not a part of his body.
DD on the other hand, would be completely incapacitated and have no options to free himself if caught in the webbing.
And while one of them was trying to break the other free....What would you expect Spider-Man to be doing? When you think about it...it would be very foolish for one of the Trio to attempt to free another. Doing so would leave them very susceptable to an attack...
It's not opinion. It's a time proven fact that Captain America is the best leader/schemer on the goodguys side. Spiderman is exceptionally good at this for one individual, but he has his work cut out for him because he has to plan an offsensive against 3 guys whereas Captian America only has to plan for one person.Tactically the 3 have a very decisive advantage over Spidey in this area.
Cap's a great "Team" tactician. But as you stated, Spidey is an excellent "Solo" tacticianer. I don't see Spider Man at that much of a disadvantage from a strategical perspective. seeing as how both combatants are fighting from a tactical perspective that they are both accustomed too. If anything, I would say the Captain is at more of a tactical disadvantage than Spider Man, seeing as how he is battling with peeps he generally doesn't do battle with, who as I mentioned in an earlier post, don't really compliment Cap's all around abilities.
Whether they are physically inferior to Spiderman or not, comic books have proven that he won't run circles around Daredevil or Captain America. And all 3 of these characters DO have sufficient enough strength to knock out Spiderman with a direct blow to the head. (which isn't easy...but i didn't say it'd be an easy fight)
True but we can go back and forth with this point. Comics have also proven that SM can take on opponents greater than the Trio(ie Secret Wars where he humilates the X-men including Wolvie, Sabretooth Fight, Red Skull Fight, etc, etc, etc) And don't forget that one unpulled punch from SM WILL take out both Cap and DD.
And just for my amusement. What greater opponents and under which more difficult situations has Spiderman ever been left alone with 3 characters of this caliber? These three could most certainly lay waiste to the Sinister Six.
Uhh..I hope your joking..lol...read response above..but if you need more examples..
1) Fantastic Four
2) X-factor
3) Took on Goliath, Titania, Gravitron and a few others at the same time during his power loss. I can't remember what issue this was but it was after the cosmic spidey storyline.
4)Venom and Carnage..
5)The Incredible Hulk...
6)etc..etc..etc...
Now humor me with a scenario as to how Cap/DD/or Wolvie would take on the Sinister Six by their lonesomes..😆
Same holds true for these three characters. They've all taken beatings from opponents much stronger than Spiderman and managed to get up and keep fighting. The problem Spiderman has in this fight is that none of these character quit...they just keep getting up no matter how ridiculous the blow they just took. This is why I consider them "super" human instead of just "peak" human. Not for physical strength, but for durability.
Regardless of their tenacity, Cap and DD can still not take an unpulled punch from Spider Man. The only one who can is Wolvie...and as it has been stated before...I doubt Spider Man will be foolish enough to try to incapacitate Wolvie in that way, knowing of Wolvie's reknown healing factor and durability. More than likely Wolvie will get webbed up and discarded somewhere, which will still count as a win, a cheap one, but a win none the less....
what I don't get is that ALL of these heros fight baddies that are above spider man's level on a smie regular basis,,,,,,but when they put up a good bout with the web head its because in your opinions his abilities are downplayed. IMO i think you simply underetimate what these heroes are capible of as soon as the word street level comes into earshot. I don't remember what issue but Daredevil once foguht off an entire slew of supervillains including the likes of taskmaster and I beleive stiltman, if this isn't comparible to the sin six what is? Wolverine has taken down mutlitudes of the x-men, the entirety of the dark stalkers, hundreds of ninja,,,,the list goes on and on. Perhaps this underestimation of the capabilities of these heroes is what blinds spidey fans from the truth.....he will lose.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Unlike the webbing, the Trio's weapons would prove ineffective against the glue. It's very similar to the gooey substance that Paste Pot Pete uses..(if your familiar with him) It's a very sticky-gooey substance, and as its been demonstrated in the past, one can't really slice through it. Once one is stuck in it, it's very difficult for any one without superstrength to get "unstuck" from it.
Spiderman's webbing is a sticky glue for mere fractions of a second, perhaps a few seconds...at best. Once it adheres to it's surface it hardens quickly and becomes nearly unbreakable.
Can you give an example or reference to when he's used his webbing as a glue. I assume when you say glue you mean like in Who Framed Roger Rabbit....
The webbing itself would still prove a difficult task for the Trio to get themselves out of. None of them are strong enough to break the web, if there hands, arms, and feet were engulfed by it. Wolverine might be able to sheath his claws and cut himself free, but keep in mind...in order to do this, he would have to have a considerable amount of leverage. Same goes for Cap and his shield, except Cap would have an even more difficult time, seeing as how the shield is not a part of his body.
DD on the other hand, would be completely incapacitated and have no options to free himself if caught in the webbing.
Of course none of them are strong enough to break the webbing but every one of them are capable of freeing a comrade in a matter of seconds...most specifically Wolverine.
And while one of them was trying to break the other free....What would you expect Spider-Man to be doing? When you think about it...it would be very foolish for one of the Trio to attempt to free another. Doing so would leave them very susceptable to an attack...
Spiderman is going to go and try to capitalize on the number advantage that he just created because it's obviously the most logical tactic to use. But when I think about it, every one of these characters is fully capable of keeping Spiderman occupied for minutes at a time. Freeing up a teammate is going to take seconds.
Good tactic for Spidey would be to web the one who's helping as well, but that leaves him vulnerable to the 3rd opponent.
Cap's a great "Team" tactician. But as you stated, Spidey is an excellent "Solo" tacticianer. I don't see Spider Man at that much of a disadvantage from a strategical perspective. seeing as how both combatants are fighting from a tactical perspective that they are both accustomed too. If anything, I would say the Captain is at more of a tactical disadvantage than Spider Man, seeing as how he is battling with peeps he generally doesn't do battle with, who as I mentioned in an earlier post, don't really compliment Cap's all around abilities.
I see what you're saying...and it's a very intriguing argument, but there's a significant difference between being THE BEST tacticioner vs. being a good tacticioner. He doesn't lead Marvel's greatest superhero team, and he wasn't unanamously chosen to be the leader of the good guys in Secret Wars for any other reason than the fact that he is the best leader in Marvel...bar none.
Cap knows all of these characters abilities in depth and has fought along side all of them. Much like in Secret Wars, they will follow his lead without question.
True but we can go back and forth with this point. Comics have also proven that SM can take on opponents greater than the Trio(ie Secret Wars where he humilates the X-men including Wolvie, Sabretooth Fight, Red Skull Fight, etc, etc, etc) And don't forget that one unpulled punch from SM WILL take out both Cap and DD.
Fact of the matter, everyone of these characters has taken abuse from far stronger characters than Spiderman and each one of them has gotten up from it. I think your putting a cap on "peak" level humans because you, much like all of us, don't have a firm enough defintion of what a peak human can do.
I've seen Captain America jump out of the Daily Bugle to save Spiderman, grab him, position himself above a flag pole, use the flagpole to cushion them before flinging them back in the air....only to fall several more stories downward until they landed through an awning. Both Spiderman and Captain America got up limping....but they both got up.
Uhh..I hope your joking..lol...read response above..but if you need more examples..1) Fantastic Four
2) X-factor
3) Took on Goliath, Titania, Gravitron and a few others at the same time during his power loss. I can't remember what issue this was but it was after the cosmic spidey storyline.
4)Venom and Carnage..
5)The Incredible Hulk...
6)etc..etc..etc...
I have no clue when #1-3 happened, but I know Spiderman regularly has his work cut out for him against the Human Torch.
When has he ever fought Venom and Carnage at the same time? He's teamed up with Venom to beat Carnage like....2x now.
Yah, I have Hulk vs. Spidey. Spidey barrages him with a speed blitz and Hulk doesn't feel a thing.
Now humor me with a scenario as to how Cap/DD/or Wolvie would take on the Sinister Six by their lonesomes..😆
Which 6 would you like?
Regardless of their tenacity, Cap and DD can still not take an unpulled punch from Spider Man. The only one who can is Wolvie...and as it has been stated before...I doubt Spider Man will be foolish enough to try to incapacitate Wolvie in that way, knowing of Wolvie's reknown healing factor and durability. More than likely Wolvie will get webbed up and discarded somewhere, which will still count as a win, a cheap one, but a win none the less....
Never in either of those characters history have they been knocked out in one punch, and they've been hit by much worst than Spiderman can offer. You're taking that "peak" human thing for granted again....