The Beyonder (secret wars version) VS The Living Tribunal

MERCILOUS Quite right supremthor, quite right.

How is supremthor quite right? He's getting this info from a Marvel Heroes Classic Roleplaying Game. This information ISN'T even ACCURATE; furthermore, this bio incomporates the RECONNING OF BEYONDER as well.
History:
The Beyonder was discovered to be an incomplete cosmic cube. The ability to alter reality in a solar system, but nowhere near the level of universe or even galaxy destruction as originally represented (see original stats below). All those things like that the Beyonder did where illusion, a cube has vast illusion powers as well as reality manipulation and can appear far more powerful than it really is.

We're talking about the original Beyonder from SW I & II - there's a difference. This isn't evidence to anything.

I mean Fighting: CL1000? What's that? How do they know?
Agility: CL1000? Huh?
Strength: CL1000?
Endurance: CL3000? Measured by WHAT?
Reason: CL1000? What the hell is reason? How'd they measure that?
Intuition: CL1000 Say what?
Psyche: CL3000 You've got to be kidding me!
Health: 6000 So is this Dragon Ball Z or something; I thought Beyonder was a Marvel creation.
Karma: Unlimited Karma? Isn't karma luck?
Resources: Un
Popularity: 0
Your going to go by THIS about the Beyonder? Please!

Here's a little they wrote about LT.
Known Powers:
Invulnerability: The Living Tribunal has Beyond protection against all physical, energy, psionic and magical attacks.
Omni-Power: The Living Tribunal is the most powerful known being in existence. He can use any listed Power or Stunt with CL5000 ability, though he rarely does so.

LT's Power at Class 5000? You're all going to go by this to compare Beyonder and LT. This site is a game site. Please don't hold it up as EVIDENCE TO ANYTHING.

And Wrath, you admitted to not reading SW II. Well, SWII is where Beyonder demonstrated alot of his powers and shows you where he ranks in the cosmic hierarchy. If you haven't read, how can you say, with a straight face to Mider (who read SW I & II), that LT is more powerful than the original Beyonder?

Wrath

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the meaning of 'immature.' Let us embark upon a lesson shall we? When you call people names: you are immature. When you explain to someone that if they cannot spell or write in complete sentences with proper punctuation and grammar, then their arguments are invalid: that is not immature. That is trying to teach children that if they are not going to present themselves as educated individuals, then they cannot enter into an adult conversation. Learn the difference sport.

Duh! You called him a child. That's not being immature Wrath. You don't even know his age, yet you refer to him as "child" based on his writing. Now you're trying to bs your way out of it, are you serious? You're the one who's being "immature" and unfamiliar with the term. You don't have to be an A$$ about it or call him a child, just tell him to use better spell or you won't reply to his post.

Also, I have never quoted any Marvel bio, I didn't even read them for this debate. Nor did I read SW II, I never said I did. But if you look closely, I never argued anything regarding Secret Wars II! I never mentioned Warlock, you did! This is SW I Beyonder vs. LT. I don't care if you bring up Warlock, but that's not the issue. The issue if you claiming LT couldn't act, and I refuted that by pointing out he COULD act but he didn't, ex. Thanos.

1] The Original Beyonder was featured in both SW I & II. In I, alot was explained about him; in II, his powers and origins were EXPLAINED EVER FURTHER! How can you argue that he can't compare to LT if you're only basing this on SWI? You're only getting HALF THE STORY by doing that.

2] And why didn't act regarding Thanos? Because Thanos' goal was to kill life - NOT end the universe. LT ACTED against Warlock (who wielded the SAME POWER) because Warlock's past/origins made him unfit to wield power that could destroy the universe. Eternity made this case before LT and LT AGREED with that assesment THUS HE ACTED. He told Warlock if Warlock RESISTED - their fight could destroy the universe. Thus Warlock gave in. If Thanos was a threat to the universe - NOT just LIFE - LT would've acted as well. Beyonder threatened to destroy all existence just to get the Celestials to act - he was toying with them. Every cosmic being knew the Beyonder was a threat to all existence - non could do a thing including LT. If he could, he would've.

Mecilous
Beyonder kills death.

Beyonder makes himself mortal (capable of dying.)

1. either death is not dead and he's only destroyed some metamorphical manifestation of death, which makes you wrong.

2. Death is dead and all are immortal making all of beyonders ploys pointless.

Him making himself mortal isn't about the ability to die. Thor is a god, Thanos is a Titan, Surfer is a herald, non of these individuals are considered mortal, right? Yet they all can die - Thanos has. Thor & other gods can die too. Furthermore, would you also consider them to be immortal to a CERTAIN degree. Now let's continue...

...being mortal is often meant as being human or human level. Thor often refers to humans as mortals. In SW I, Beyonder had NO FORM. In SW II, he took a human form & went to Earth to experience emotions. When he makes himself MORTAL, he isn't trying himself vulnerable to death; he was trying to become more human. He wanted to know what being a human being felt like - not just look like a human. It was all about experiencing human emotions. He himself said he was able to retain all his powers despite turning into an ordinary mortal - that's how power he was. Mortal means human in this case, not vulnerability to death (mortality). Everything is SW II was about experiencing new things/emotions and learning what his role is.

Additionally Mercilous, Thanos w/ the Gauntlet something similar. When he fought the heroes, he turned off every gems power, except the power gem. He still retained all the power of the entire IG but didn't have access to all but one. Thus it improved the heroes chances and was a way for him to impress Death.

how do these threads get closed?

Originally posted by Beyonder
[b]Wrath

Duh! You called him a child. That's not being immature Wrath. You don't even know his age, yet you refer to him as "child" based on his writing. Now you're trying to bs your way out of it, are you serious? You're the one who's being "immature" and unfamiliar with the term. You don't have to be an A$$ about it or call him a child, just tell him to use better spell or you won't reply to his post.

Mind your own business. This doesn't concern you. Just to clarify, calling someone a child is not an immature insult, nor does it relate to his actual age. He is acting like a child, thus he shall be referred to one. An immature insult is something with no justifiable basis. I also have every justification to be an ass when I DID tell him to use better spelling or his posts cannot be taken seriously and then he became defensive and actually attempted to excuse his poor grammar. There is no excuse for that kind of failing. It's laziness on his part. That is unacceptable.

1] The Original Beyonder was featured in both SW I & II. In I, alot was explained about him; in II, his powers and origins were EXPLAINED EVER FURTHER! How can you argue that he can't compare to LT if you're only basing this on SWI? You're only getting HALF THE STORY by doing that.

I never once said I read the SW II, that doesn't detract from the fact that the Living Tribunal is THE top entity in the universe. This isn't a Beyonder vs. Galactus thread, it's a Beyonder vs. the most powerful being in Marvel thread. Thus the answer is obvious regardless of the powers and origins.

2] And why didn't act regarding Thanos? Because Thanos' goal was to kill life - NOT end the universe. LT ACTED against Warlock (who wielded the SAME POWER) because Warlock's past/origins made him unfit to wield power that could destroy the universe. Eternity made this case before LT and LT AGREED with that assesment THUS HE ACTED. He told Warlock if Warlock RESISTED - their fight could destroy the universe. Thus Warlock gave in. If Thanos was a threat to the universe - NOT just LIFE - LT would've acted as well. Beyonder threatened to destroy all existence just to get the Celestials to act - he was toying with them. Every cosmic being knew the Beyonder was a threat to all existence - non could do a thing including LT. If he could, he would've.

It's been discussed before that LT does not interfere unless the entire MULTIverse is threatened. LT destroys universes if he sees fit. Warlock actually destroying a universe would be stepping on LT's toes, but it is still possible to destroy a universe and not endanger all of existence. Despite all this, Beyonder was still not an actual danger. Threatening to do something in order to get what you want isn't a sign of actual threat. If he was actually a danger, he would have destroyed the universe regardless, and in that aspect, LT would have done something. And again, simply because Beyonder is outside the normal space-time continuim does not mean he is outside LT's jurisdiction. If I go to Britain I can't walk around saying 'I'm American I can do what I want.' No, I'm in Blair's jurisdiction, he has the power. Beyonder entered LT's multiverse, he became under his power. Again, if LT had waved his hand and ended the threat, there would be no Secret Wars. It's not his job to wave his hand, it's his job to stay out of it unless it personally affects him.

Him making himself mortal isn't about the ability to die. Thor is a god, Thanos is a Titan, Surfer is a herald, non of these individuals are considered mortal, right? Yet they all can die - Thanos has. Thor & other gods can die too. Furthermore, would you also consider them to be immortal to a CERTAIN degree. Now let's continue...

Ok, I think at this point you're talking to Mercilous, because I never talked about any of this.

...being mortal is often meant as being human or human level. Thor often refers to humans as mortals. In SW I, Beyonder had NO FORM. In SW II, he took a human form & went to Earth to experience emotions. When he makes himself MORTAL, he isn't trying himself vulnerable to death; he was trying to become more human. He wanted to know what being a human being felt like - not just look like a human. It was all about experiencing human emotions. He himself said he was able to retain all his powers despite turning into an ordinary mortal - that's how power he was. Mortal means human in this case, not vulnerability to death (mortality). Everything is SW II was about experiencing new things/emotions and learning what his role is.

Additionally Mercilous, Thanos w/ the Gauntlet something similar. When he fought the heroes, he turned off every gems power, except the power gem. He still retained all the power of the entire IG but didn't have access to all but one. Thus it improved the heroes chances and was a way for him to impress Death.

Originally posted by Mider
how do these threads get closed?

thread starter should request so to the moderator *me*

Wrath
It's been discussed before that LT does not interfere unless the entire MULTIverse is threatened. LT destroys universes if he sees fit. Warlock actually destroying a universe would be stepping on LT's toes, but it is still possible to destroy a universe and not endanger all of existence. Despite all this, Beyonder was still not an actual danger. Threatening to do something in order to get what you want isn't a sign of actual threat. If he was actually a danger, he would have destroyed the universe regardless, and in that aspect, LT would have done something. And again, simply because Beyonder is outside the normal space-time continuim does not mean he is outside LT's jurisdiction. If I go to Britain I can't walk around saying 'I'm American I can do what I want.' No, I'm in Blair's jurisdiction, he has the power. Beyonder entered LT's multiverse, he became under his power. Again, if LT had waved his hand and ended the threat, there would be no Secret Wars. It's not his job to wave his hand, it's his job to stay out of it unless it personally affects him.

Right Wrath, sure Wrath, whatever Wrath. The Gauntlet's power was over one universe and was not a threat to the multiverse. LT interfered because Warlock was a danger to the ONE UNIVERSE he was in - not the entire universe. Eternity presented his case against Warlock to LT and LT agreed - Warlock was a danger to the universe. LT was willing to battle it out with Warlock stating that it would result in the destroy of the universe if they were to struggle over the Gauntlet and what supreme god (of one universe) would Warlock be if he resisted. Thus Warlock agree to relinquish his might. However, Warlock had the right to give the gems to whom he wished, against Eternity's wishes (who wanted the Gauntlet for himself). Again, LT acted because ONE universe was endangered, not the multiverse.

Furthermore, Beyonder threatened to destroy existence just to get the Celestials to act. If Beyonder wasn't able to destroy the existence, you REALLY THINK the Celestials would've taken action as the Beyonder WANTED? They acted because they knew would and could. By acting/fighting they gave him what HE WANTED and SPARED the universe. Why didn't LT interfere? 'Cause he couldn't. He never he any power over the Beyonder throughout SW II. He was among the other cosmic deity who couldn't do a thing.

Originally posted by Beyonder
...Beyonder threatened to destroy existence just to get the Celestials to act. If Beyonder wasn't able to destroy the existence, you REALLY THINK the Celestials would've taken action as the Beyonder WANTED? They acted because they knew would and could. By acting/fighting they gave him what HE WANTED and SPARED the universe. Why didn't LT interfere? 'Cause he couldn't. He never he any power over the Beyonder throughout SW II. He was among the other cosmic deity who couldn't do a thing.

Much like regular Thor was able to injure Galactus during his encounter with Ego, the definition of a character's power changes with time. I observed only mentionings of Living Tribunal's name before the Infinity Gauntlet series, but I'm surmising he was depowered during the 80's to give leeway for Secret Wars.

During the early to late 90's, Living Tribunal was once considered one (if not THE) highest force in the Marvel universe. Then came that DC/Marvel crossover that threw in the mix the brothers who were claimed to be beyond even him.

If we are associating the current Living Tribunal with the 80's Beyonder, then Living Tribunal would be classified as powerful enough to will him out of existence.

LT wasn't depowered anything. And LT in the 90's stated himself that if Warlock with the Gauntlet was to resist, their struggle for the Gauntlet would destroy the universe. If LT could've snapped his fingers and taken it, he wouldn't have stated that to Warlock in front of all the cosmic deities. LT doesn't just snap his fingers and his wishes comes true. The Gauntlet can do the exact thing, however, LT is more power - BUT not powerful enough to just snap his fingers and expect the Gauntlet wielder to loose the Gauntlet or die. He didn't will Warlock anything, just logical convinced Warlock to give up that power rather than end the universe through their struggle.

The universe, not the multiverse.

because this topic has been discussed soo long and i have posted here before ill just say that he rules the tribunal's ass. tribunal has jurisdiction on everything in the multiverse, but the beyonder wasnt from the multiverse, he was from the beyond realm, and was therefore beyond the bouns, rules, restrictions and effetcts of the entire multiverse, that is why the tribunal had and even in his current state, would have no power over him, i believe that earlier in this thread, some one posted a page of a comic where galactus clearly defines the beyonder as out of this MULTIVERSE, so there you go, problem solved, thrad closed, end of story.
but im sure this threads gonna go on, some people just arent willing to let go of their point of view.

LT's powers weren't defined well enough in the 80s. He was more of a mystery.

lion, you're not reading what I said. Beyonder is FROM the beyond, but when he ENTERS the multiverse of the LT, he IS under the rules of LT. That is end of your story, not the end of the story. There's a major difference. Anything physical entering this multiverse automatically comes under the rules and boundaries of the multiverse, that's a scientific fact. Anyone can argue all day 'Marvel can do whatever they want in comic books' and yeah that's the case, but you know what, I can argue the Captain Universe Spider-Man could beat them both, and you can't argue against me because they didn't face each other. Point is, I'm not stupid enough to argue that, because I recognize the obvious fact that God is God. You cannot be more powerful. Period.

Problem solved, thread cosed, end of story.

a black hole doesnt go under the rules of science but it exists in the universe....so i guess not everything is bound by rules and jurisdiction, just like the Beyonder was not bound by the LT.

Oh i guess that when an invading army goes into another country its under the jurisdiction of that govenment great example Wrath geez give it up already.

I'm not sure about this whole jurisdiction thing but the Living Tribunal was a little concerned about The Starbrand because it came from another reality.

Uh, a black hole is part of the scientific world. It is simply a collapsed Supernova Type II with such an incredible amount of mass that it forms a 'hole' in the fabric of space. The gravitational pull of the collapsed star is so great that it is capable of sucking all matter, including light, into its event horizon. There's nothing unscientific about it. Scientists have been full aware of the properties of black holes for 20 years now. Where the hell have you been?

Countries don't have the power to snap their fingers and will anyone and anything out of said country.

pfft 🙂 what science page did you go to find that house wrath? I know you did 😉 it still doesnt matter you dont know whats inside the black hole 😛 and no its not totally know why it happens and a nova explodes dosent it? We are talking about jurisdiction not power The Beyonder was not under the LT"s juridiction or power.

Yes he was. Here let me try to argue like you so that you might understand.

pfft. Everything that Beyonder did was mostly an illusion. How can you acknowledge Secret wars I but not II and II and V and XII, where they clearly further explain the beyonders powers. Beyonder was so full of himself that he wants you to beleive everything he said no matter how much he was bsing both you and him.

Marvel can do whatever they want, this sometimes has nothing to do with science. Marvel did do what they want, and they said that Beyonder in Secret Wars ! was no where near as powerful as he seemed. They also said that LT was the most powerful being there was no matter what they wrote in the past.

And by the by, beyonder didn't kill death, mortal means mortal, not whatever the hell you're talkiing about. Unless beyonder your almighty champion somehow doesn't have access to a dictionary (real poweful my eye.)

This thread is about the Original beyonder not the illuion casting one thats why i dont need to acknowledge oh and wrath, one question if LT is so powerful and is supposed to protect and blah blah blah how come he never stoped the Infinites? who were trying to merge all the energies in all realities and thus kill a few countless people. And yes they were seconds away from doing it i didnt see an LT around.

He can see all events future and past. If you knew anything about LT you'd know this too. There's no reason to stop an unsuccessful attempt.

And are you saying that it was a different Beyonder?

Yes mercilous it was a diffrent Beyonder the other one was an incomplete comsmic cube but the original was the sum total of his universe, I think you guys give to much credit to the LT i know he is powerful but you guys make him to powerful he has never done anything that has gone so far as to make him as powerful as you all say, Korvac Saga is a great example Korvac grew to a level of power so great that all the beings that the LT sent after him as in galactus, grandmaster, master order, lord chaos, the shaper of worlds, the stranger, the watcher was involved to an unknown extent, as well as the inbetweener, every single force that went up against korvac was killed and its powers absorbed the LT finally had to step in and try and distroy Korvac himself by causing the sun to go nova but even that was unsucessful Korvac protected himself and the LT just decided to get the hell out of there, and seal that universe off from all the others, Korvac then took the ultimate nulifier that was used to kill galactus and nulified the universe and himself, only three people survived one who's name escapes me for the moment but for sure the other two were, Dr Strange, and the Phoenix. You can all say what you want about the LT he probably is greater then any single force in the universe but as for a combined total of a universe in a single being, i dont think so. The Beyonders universe was from beyonder the multiverse and was thus even greater in power then your average universe, why? cause it simply was i mean he did threaten to distroy the universe and he probably could have the LT never steped in to stop Beyonder like he did Korvac in any case the LT could not stop the Beyonder and further more when it came to Korvac the LT failed at protecting a universe under his "jurisdiction"