Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"Sue has limitless potential - some writers have her reach it. You don't complain about the fact that Sue can create bubbles in someone's brain, right? It's just a logical extension of her powers. This is no different."Contradiction. You can't reach limits if you have none.
You're obsfucating - my point, that you've once again avoided, is that there are logical extensions to powers, and it just requires its wielder to use them. Sue's power didn't start that way - in the very beginning, she just used to turn invisible. There was no evidence she could create invisible objects. Then, one day, she learned that ability. That's been true with countless dozens of characters in comics.
"But we're not talking about whether Wolverine could take Torch. We're talking about whether his flames can be put out by certain things. This was an example, among many. "Again you dodge the point. The nature of the win, how it happened, not who took it.
I didn't dodge the point - you just didn't have one. The whole point of that example was to show a fire extinguisher taking out Torch. And there are others.
Well back on Earth for a second.....Torch has flown in the rain.
Good for Torch. It also rains on buildings on fire without putting it out. It's like this - Torch is fine as long as he generates more flame than the flame being put out. Obviously, regular rain wouldn't do that. But Storm directly hurricane force rain and wind at him would. So would fire extinguishers. Keep in mind, however, that there's nothing to stop him from flaming back on. He's just off for the time-being.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
The fire extinguisher was pathetic writing.We would need- delving into sceince for a minute- to assume the power of his flame was less than any fire which is beyond being controlled by a hand-held extinguisher.
Don't confused power with volume. A fire-extinguisher can put out any fire, regardless of its "power", since it deprives the fire of oxygen, but it runs out before all the fire it put out. Torch only has his body's worth of fire around him - certainly enough to be extinguished by a fire extinguisher. And when Wolverine did it to him, he didn't use a handheld fire extinguisher, he activated the building's fire control system to spray Torch.
Originally posted by Lord S
Yeah I agree it's ridiculous to refer to non-canon events in a debate. That's like someone citing Wolverine's preposterous gutting of the Silver Surfer in that What If issue in a potential Wolvie/SS debate.
Except Contest of Champions is canon. Not a What If
Sorry to continue straying off topic, but who was the writer? I'm going to go home and check...my best guess...*drumroll* CLAREMONT! LOL!
No, he didn't write that What If. Sorry.
Tron said it best the other day...X-Men handle mutant problems, Avengers handle global problems, and the FF handle cosmic problems. Seems that someone in Marvel (likely Claremont) seems hellbent on raising the X-Men's stature to ridiculous levels (with constant powerups etc.) and it just pisses me off sometimes.
So what's your point? They don't handle the problems they do because of their POWER levels, unless you're trying to say the Fantastic Four are more powerful than the Avengers. It has to do with what their cause is. X-men handle mutant problems because that's their CAUSE. That says absolutely nothing about whether or not they should be super-powerful. Avenger's handle global problems because that's their stated cause - to protect Earth. That says absolutely nothing about how powerful they are or should be. Fantastic Four handle cosmic problems because they're a family and a team of adventurers - space has always been their frontier.
The X-men are more than capable of filling that role if need be. They've had several cosmic adventures against the likes of the Brood, the Shi'Ar, The Phalanx, Skrulls, The Stranger, Celestials and other universal threats and have done JUST FINE. Not a single flaming guy or rocky dude in sight...
Hahaha The Brood and Shiar Vs Galactus, Annihilus, Skrull/Kree empire, The Stranger, The Celestials.
Let's not get into who fights the worse enemies.
"The whole point of that example was to show a fire extinguisher taking out Torch. And there are others."
Stupid though, nothing you can say can change it. No element on Earth can generate enough water to put out the intensity Torch is capable of, much less a fire extinguisher.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hahaha The Brood and Shiar Vs Galactus, Annihilus, Skrull/Kree empire, The Stranger, The Celestials.Let's not get into who fights the worse enemies.
Doing so would be pointless. My only point is that the X-men have fought The Stranger, The Celestials, The Brood, The Skrull/Kree, a lot of the same cosmic/universal enemies the Four have, and several the Four have not and they've always come away victorious. And that's not even the X-men's primary mission. Speaks well of what they're capable of.
"The whole point of that example was to show a fire extinguisher taking out Torch. And there are others."Stupid though, nothing you can say can change it. No element on Earth can generate enough water to put out the intensity Torch is capable of, much less a fire extinguisher.
Well, I guess it comes down to you thinking it's stupid Torch can be put out by...anything because his heat is so intense (despite a pretty extensive history of being put out by...everything), and me thinking that it's stupid Torch can flame on in space because there's no oxygen in space (despite a one-time occurrence of him doing that). I think on the "stupid event scale", flying in space when you can't breathe and have no oxygen to light your fire is definitely higher, but hey, to each his own.
I think we've exausted our points.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
"But FF have defenitely fought more cosmic villains then X-Men."Yep they have. Because they are a better team, which is the key factor.
It's not because they're the better team. It's because it's their stated mission as a family and team of space explorers. It's been their thing since their inception. Their rogues gallery has nothing to do with their power level - it has everything to do with whom they've encountered as a result of their explorations and experiments. Half their enemies come from the Negative Zone. Why is that? Because the FF discovered the Negative Zone. No other reason.
Put it this way - if the X-men and FF decided to swap villains for a year, to spice things up a bit, I have no doubt in my mind that the X-men would still do just fine. I think the FF would, too.
ANYWAY, I think Torch has the ability to do something to win faster. As stated.
I think his fastest shot (fire blast) equals her fastest shot (lightning blast). Both are lethal, neither should or would be used in a fight between the two of them. That's why I'm exploring other combat options. It's more fun that way too.
Originally posted by demigawd
Don't confused power with volume. A fire-extinguisher can put out any fire, regardless of its "power", since it deprives the fire of oxygen, but it runs out before all the fire it put out. Torch only has his body's worth of fire around him - certainly enough to be extinguished by a fire extinguisher. And when Wolverine did it to him, he didn't use a handheld fire extinguisher, he activated the building's fire control system to spray Torch.
I'm not confusing power with volume. You believe he has less than the amount an extinguisher can put out. I don't.
The rest isn't relevant.