what is better...?

Originally posted by Clovie
actually... the question wasn't if lie could be a value 😖

it was what you prefer to know the truth which is horrible, mean and awful,
or a lie which hides that not-pleasant truth 😬

and thanks everyone 😉

By assigning values to truth (horrible, mean and awful) and lies (not pleasant) you are negating your own statement (the question wasn't if a lie could be a value).

What I am arguing is that truth and lies ARE values, they do not exist in isolation. Again, I refer anybody interested in "truth" to read Michel Foucault, who has a very interesting and in my opinion, very valid argument concerning truth.

Simply put (very simply) he states that truth is something that people make up and that changes over time.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
By assigning values to truth (horrible, mean and awful) and lies (not pleasant) you are negating your own statement (the question wasn't if a lie could be a value).

What I am arguing is that truth and lies ARE values, they do not exist in isolation. Again, I refer anybody interested in "truth" to read Michel Foucault, who has a very interesting and in my opinion, very valid argument concerning truth.

Simply put (very simply) he states that truth is something that people make up and that changes over time.

kill me and think what you want to think. i don't care.

in some occassions, the beautiful lie, but only in some and I don't wanna say which.

Man, Clovie, I don't wanna kill you, I think you started a very interesting debate, it is a very important issue, lies vs truth, it's just that I happened to read some of Foucault's stuff recently and he happened to argue about this very specific topic, which is why I've spent a lot of thought on it.

I think people should care. I think caring is more important than telling some "made-up" truth. The reason I say it is made-up is because truth is a human creation, it doesn't exist outside of human consensus, therefore it is not an absolute, merely an agreed-upon value.

What worries me is how many people immediately vote for truth, no matter what, no matter who gets hurt. Sure, people should strive to live their lives as honestly as possible, but the moment truth becomes our new god and we all fall down and worship it, it is only going to lead to misery and suffering, the same way worship of the all-mighty dollar has led to hunger, starvation and poverty across the world.

Originally posted by WindDancer
The truth is always the best choice. But there are times in which the truth can hurt more than a lie. A lie sometimes can be beneficial and other times it can be hurtful.

Isn't that what I said? 😂

Man, Clovie, I don't wanna kill you, I think you started a very interesting debate, it is a very important issue, lies vs truth, it's just that I happened to read some of Foucault's stuff recently and he happened to argue about this very specific topic, which is why I've spent a lot of thought on it.

I think people should care. I think caring is more important than telling some "made-up" truth. The reason I say it is made-up is because truth is a human creation, it doesn't exist outside of human consensus, therefore it is not an absolute, merely an agreed-upon value.

What worries me is how many people immediately vote for truth, no matter what, no matter who gets hurt. Sure, people should strive to live their lives as honestly as possible, but the moment truth becomes our new god and we all fall down and worship it, it is only going to lead to misery and suffering, the same way worship of the all-mighty dollar has led to hunger, starvation and poverty across the world.

Blind truth is more harmful than a man who asks why? A man knows he's truly wise when he admits he knows nothing at all. So why is telling the truth so important? The world is build on lies. Corporation's are built on the backs of its workers believing in a greater truth. Rumors are lies that believe they're the truth. But can a lie be more harmful than the truth, or the truth more harmful than a lie? The term WHITE LIE was created for this very thing. I believe lies are important in our soceity and are the tethers to our civilization remaining together. A lie can build building blocks while the truth could tear them down.

Anyway... so what's more important? A soceity built on lies, together and strong ... or a truthful society, broken and battered?

If the truth was so important, we would all be able to read each other's mind and thus have no secrets. An open society. But do we want that?

Where is the fun in truth. Anyone can say what they think is subjectively true - any damn idiot can blurt out the truth.

Give me a well honed lie any day.

It's also said that the truth will catch up to you. So what's really true?

Well yeah, what is the truth.

If you and i sat at the table and on the table i saw an apple and you saw a pear who is right?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If you and i sat at the table and on the table i saw an apple and you saw a pier who is right?

If I said I saw a pier on the table you'd probably be wondering what drugs I was on.

Quiet...its laTe. Cut me some slack plZ...

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Quiet...its laTe. Cut me some slack plZ...

Ok - just for you.

Originally posted by Mr Zero
Slack... Hmnnn....

Ok - just for you.

<3 <3 <3 Thanks Z, you are the bestest.

I'd rather have the terrible truth, because no matter how beautifull a lie is, it is still bullshit, and bullshit aint pretty.

"If ignorance is bliss, then knock the smile off my face."
-- "Settle for Nothing" by Rage Against the Machine

Yeah, I'd much rather someone be honest with me than tell a lie. I can't stand liars.

"I'm a truth addict, aww shit I gotta head rush!" 😮‍💨

😂

Trust Nivek and myself to use RATM lyrics...

Originally posted by Clovie
terrible truth or beautiful lie?

Clover you minx!

I just worked out that this is a trick question: The terrible truth and the beautiful lie are the same thing.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Well yeah, what is the truth.

If you and i sat at the table and on the table i saw an apple and you saw a pier who is right?

Depends on which fruit is actually on the table.

Originally posted by Evy_O
in some occassions, the beautiful lie, but only in some and I don't wanna say which.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Man, Clovie, I don't wanna kill you, I think you started a very interesting debate, it is a very important issue, lies vs truth, it's just that I happened to read some of Foucault's stuff recently and he happened to argue about this very specific topic, which is why I've spent a lot of thought on it.

Originally posted by Mr Zero
Clover you minx!

I just worked out that this is a trick question: The terrible truth and the beautiful lie are the same thing.

Sorry about the man, force of habit, like dude or sweetie or pal or bro.
As for telling the truth, I agree, up to a point, and with certain reservations. As I said, I agree that people should try and live their lives as honestly as possible. I decided this a long time ago, basically to cut out confusion, since lies get complicated after a while and you end up being found out, especially me, I'm too lazy to keep track of all my lies. And my girlfriend is mean, she beats me up when she catches me lying.

I just have a fear of people telling the truth, NO MATTER WHAT THE COST. This seems problematic to me, for the following reasons: (Again, remember I'm basing most of my arguments on what I remember from the little Foucault I've read)

Do you remember, a few decades ago, homosexuality was not just immoral, it was ILLEGAL. In other words, the great truth was, if a man loved another man, he didn't only go to Hell, he also went to prison.
This is just one of the examples he uses to show how our perception of the "truth" changes over the years, which he claims supports his argument that there is no such thing as "eternal truth", merely an agreed upon truth, a truth that can change as our perceptions change.

Similar to this is the way everybody a few hundred years ago believed that the earth was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth, or that God created us in one day.

So, I just want to conclude by saying although "truth" is a value we should all strive for, it should not be the only value we take into consideration, compassion and empathy should be considered equally important, therefore, it should not be "the terrible truth" no matter how terrible it is, sometimes a "beautiful lie" can cause more good and less damage.