Err I will try:
If God created us he would know what every single one of us would do, so he kenw before we were actually were born that we would sin and that there would be n o way around it, we would exactly do what he already knew we would there fore we have no free will since we can't do anything else, and God knowing that when he created the Universe makes him resposible for it. You know kind of like someone throwing an atomic Bomb ion a city and perfectly knowing what will happen so its not hte fault of the Bomb but of the person causiong it.
Sinning is inevitale because everyone is imperfect. There isnt suppose to be a way around sinning, God doesnt ask for perfection.
Your example is that of destruction and the bomb has no consciousness.
God created it for the potential for good of humans, the ones who would follow, the ones who dont are the inevitable part of free will. But he wanted free will, not to force everybody.
If omniscience exists, free will does not. It is a fairly simple concept, really.
If God knows that I will do something, I have no other choice but to do what He knows I will do, otherwise He would not really know now would He?
If I must do what God knows I will do, I do not have free will but the semblance thereof.
If God is omniscient, our actions are predetermined and we do not have free will.
If we have free will, then God does not know everything and is not omniscient.
If omniscience exists, free will does not. It is a fairly simple concept, really.If God knows that I will do something, I have no other choice but to do what He knows I will do, otherwise He would not really know now would He?
If I must do what God knows I will do, I do not have free will but the semblance thereof.
If God is omniscient, our actions are predetermined and we do not have free will.
If we have free will, then God does not know everything and is not omniscient.
I get the concept that you have but I disagree.
You are suggesting that his knowing interferes but it does not need to be so.
Your actions are known to him but none the less are your actions. He knows all the decisions you are going to make, the decisions you WILL MAKE on your own accord, not are forced to make.
Originally posted by clickclick
I get the concept that you have but I disagree.You are suggesting that his knowing interferes but it does not need to be so.
Your actions are known to him but none the less are your actions. He knows all the decisions you are going to make, the decisions you WILL MAKE on your own accord, not are forced to make.
Please provide an example of an instance in which God knows everything but it is possible for one to do the opposite of what God knows he will do.
Or if you prefer, please reconcile how an omnibenevolent God can create an individual with the foreknowledge that he will go to hell.
Please provide an example of an instance in which God knows everything but it is possible for one to do the opposite of what God knows he will do.
Your insinuating that God knowing your choice forces you to do something, it doesnt. He just knows everything, the way you think, the things you will do but they are the things you do, YOU DO them on your own. To you, everything is new are able to make whatever decision you want.
To god, he already knows the things YOU will choose.
Or if you prefer, please reconcile how an omnibenevolent God can create an individual with the foreknowledge that he will go to hell.
He still gave them a choice, they are responsible for their decisions.
Originally posted by clickclick
Your insinuating that God knowing your choice forces you to do something, it doesnt. He just knows everything, the way you think, the things you will do but they are the things you do, YOU DO them on your own. To you, everything is new are able to make whatever decision you want.To god, he already knows the things YOU will choose.
So I presume that you cannot provide an example of an instance in which God knows everything but it is possible for one to do the opposite of what God knows he will do?
So if God knows that I am going to commit a crime, can I choose not to?
Originally posted by clickclick
He still gave them a choice, they are responsible for their decisions.
If God knows an individual is going to hell before he is created, then his going to hell is predestined by God and not the result of his actions. If God knows he is going to hell, how can he do anything but what God knows he will do? Furthermore, why would an omnibenevolent God create an individual knowing that he will go to hell?
So I presume that you cannot provide an example of an instance in which God knows everything but it is possible for one to do the opposite of what God knows he will do?So if God knows that I am going to commit a crime, can I choose not to?
I didnt try to provide an example because I dont see the need for one.
It is not possible to do something other than what God knows you will do. This however does not mean you didnt get to make your own choices, it means that he knows your choices before you do. They are however, your choices.
Free will is not affected unless there is interference, omniscience is not interference.
If God knows you are going to commit a crime it is because that is your decision. God knows your decisions just as you will know later on. They are still your decisions though.
If God knows an individual is going to hell before he is created, then his going to hell is predestined by God and not the result of his actions. If God knows he is going to hell, how can he do anything but what God knows he will do? Furthermore, why would an omnibenevolent God create an individual knowing that he will go to hell?
He created them with free choice, he knows what they will do with those choices and if if that leads them to hell then so be it. That is not his fault, while you appear to be wanting to the put the blame on God for creating them, that is incorrect. They had free choice and so they take responsibility.
Knowing that they will go to hell is different from making them do the things that led them their.
Originally posted by clickclick
I didnt try to provide an example because I dont see the need for one.It is not possible to do something other than what God knows you will do. This however does not mean you didnt get to make your own choices, it means that he knows your choices before you do. They are however, your choices.
Free will is not affected unless there is interference, omniscience is not interference.
If God knows you are going to commit a crime it is because that is your decision. God knows your decisions just as you will know later on. They are still your decisions though.
By your own admission, it is impossible to do anything other than what God knows you will do. Therefore, if God knows that I will commit a crime, I must commit a crime. I cannot decide not to at the last moment or God would not be omniscient. But if I cannot decide not to, I do not have free will now do I?
Originally posted by clickclick
He created them with free choice, he knows what they will do with those choices and if if that leads them to hell then so be it. That is not his fault, while you appear to be wanting to the put the blame on God for creating them, that is incorrect. They had free choice and so they take responsibility.Knowing that they will go to hell is different from making them do the things that led them their.
By creating an individual knowing that he will go to hell, God is destining that individual to go to hell before he is even born. Why would an omnibenevolent God do this?
Ultimately, the problem with omniscience is that of reconciling divine foreknowledge and human freedom. If God knows all of our future actions, then our future is fixed, but if our future is fixed, then there is nothing we can do to change it. The ability to determine our future actions is what constitutes human freedom. Divine foreknowledge precludes the possibility of our being free agents. The only way to reconcile this paradox is to accept that either God is not omniscient or that human beings do not have free will.
By your own admission, it is impossible to do anything other than what God knows you will do. Therefore, if God knows that I will commit a crime, I must commit a crime. I cannot decide not to at the last moment or God would not be omniscient. But if I cannot decide not to, I do not have free will now do I?
Its a given that you can not do something that God wont know, he is omniscient. Your ability to make a choice is not diminished by God's knowledge of the outcome. Your choice is real but God knows the end result.
You can decide at the last minute not to commit that crime but God would know that too. His knowing doesnt force you to do bad, you choose to do so.
By creating an individual knowing that he will go to hell, God is destining that individual to go to hell before he is even born. Why would an omnibenevolent God do this?
Creating an indivual he knows will go to hell does not mean he forced them there by creating them. That is the path they choose, they still had to choose it.
If God knows all of our future actions, then our future is fixed, but if our future is fixed, then there is nothing we can do to change it. The ability to determine our future actions is what constitutes human freedom. Divine foreknowledge precludes the possibility of our being free agents. The only way to reconcile this paradox is to accept that either God is not omniscient or that human beings do not have free will.
It is not fixed by him, it is known by him. It is done by whomever on their own accord.
Faking out God is not what determines free will. We determine our future and God knows our future.
It is not one or the other because omniscience does not affect free will.