why isnt carnage the best villain?!

Originally posted by Blaque Cell
Y'know, alot of people don't know this, but I actually like Venom better than Carnage.
Nemo, all we got was a red X. But, if what you said is true, than I am truly ashamed of myself as a Carnage fan, because I completely forgot that Sonic rays don't work on him! Gotta reread Maximum Carnage, I suppose.
Now, as for who is better, it's arguable. I can see why some people find Carnage to be one-dimensional. Of course, stories like "Mind Bomb" add some dimension to the character. I find both he and Venom to be very interesting. I think the reason he's not Spidey's top villain is because they have no personal attachment. Look at the Green Goblin. He and Spidey truly hate each other on a personal level and have dragged each others' families into their feud. Doc Ock and Spidey respect each other on an intellectual level. Spidey was indirectly responsible for screwing up Venom's personal life, not to mention the fact that his family has been personally threatened and frightened by Venom. Carnage doesn't really have any attachment to Peter. Not even mutual respect or hatred. Truth be told, I think Carnage is pretty indifferent to Spider-Man's existence in general. This is not to say that he's not a good villain. He's just not "The Bad Guy". Personally, I'd love to see Norman Osborn step down and have someone else take his place. Maybe Venom, or Electro, another villain who, like Carnage, really hasn't gotten his due.

Now you know why most people like Venom more

Carnage is a great example of what happens to a character who has the writers' on his side. The writers wanted to capitalize on Venoms popularity SOOO they created a "cool ass killing machine!" Venom rip-off that, as Blaque Cell wrote, fails to have much of an impact on long-term story arcs. Love Venom or hate him, you knew that as long as he was out there somewhere he was going to make a beeline for Spidey. Carnage obviously doesn't care who he "frags!!11"... as long as he is mindlessly killing it's all good.

Oh and I have read both Mind Bomb and the entire run of Maximum Carnage... all the stumbling and trifling about by the various later writers who handled the character still couldn't make him a "worthy" villain in my eyes.

An insane over-powered lunatic is still going to be an insane over-powered lunatic even if he has had a troubled childhood/past.

You know what's weird about Carnage? He's got a kill count that's somewhere near the thousands, and he's definitely one of Spidey's more powerful villains, but it's still hard to see him as a real threat. I get the feeling that he'll never kill anyone significant. Also, he's been pretty static for the 10+ years that he's been around. I think that changed with the recent Venom/Carnage series, though. What he needs is a goal. At first it was cool for him to just be a killing machine that chose people at random, but after ten years real time, which I assume translates roughly into 2 or 3 years comic book time, the guy's got to have a goal that he's trying to achieve. There's alot of potential to the character. It just hasn't been tapped yet.

Carnage is very one dimensional. The best Spiderman villians had pretexts with his identity; whereas Cassidy was just a random insane lunatic who had a penchant for bloodlust. People don't respond well to these types; there is no complexity and personality attraction in Cassidy.

Exactly Blaque... the character was created to be this ubah killing machine and that is what he has been for 10+ years... an ubah killing machine... except when he goes against superheroes.

He will never amount to anywhere near as much as Venom has.

You don't see the potential? It's because he's so under-developed that he is an excellent charactor to write...also, what we have in canon points to a very interesting direction...
__What's possible with Carnage is a subtle complexity. Yes, subtle...
__A lot of people miss how the charactor lends himself to an exploration of human nature. We are all generally opaque to ourselves in our true motivations...like Carnage, we seize on, or construct, a conscious rationale for behavior we would indulge in anyway. For him, it's "Chaos- I follow/use Choas to free myself."
__He came upon that quite a bit later in life than his first killings, however. So, what motivated them? Fear/anger- he was without a sense of control over his early environment, which he felt threatened by...which made him fearful, which leads to anger. I think he's past this original motivation now but locked into an end battle with the world. It's interesting to me because so many people exibit reflexive behaviors- just not reflexive mass-homicidal behaviors.

orange: "Carnage obviously doesn't care who he "frags!!11"... as long as he is mindlessly killing it's all good."

Wrong, wrong wrong! While it is true Carnage has nothing against "staying in practice" by killing random people here and there, this is far from always true... this is what makes him dangerous: unlike Venom, it is very difficult to predict exactly what Carnage will do next. He may kill innocent bystanders. He may let someone escape who he really should have killed. You never know.... Carnage is the embodiment of Chaos in the Marvel U. No one should expect much of what he does to make sense.

As far as I am concerned, it really does not matter whether or not Carnage's every waking moment is devoted to an obsessive hunt for Spidey: we already have one person doing that, aka Venom. Why do we need TWO Venoms? We dont: we need Venom, and then we need Carnage to keep everybody else on thier toes and to give Venom absolute Hell. No one takes Venom down a notch or two better than Carny 😈

Carnage interacts with Spidey because usually Spidey insists on seeking him out and trying to corner him; Carnage rarely chases him down to begin with. Is this bad? Depends on your viewpoint... personally I think expecting Spidey to have a deeply personal interaction with every one of his antagonists is unrealistic. Do cops only arrest criminals they've known from childhood IRL? Hell, no they dont! Some people draw the attention of law-enforcement [or vigilantes] because they are evil and do evil things. Just that.

fever: "I think he's past this original motivation now but locked into an end battle with the world."

Very true.

I think a lot of people here have their minds totally closed to the possibilities here, their loss. The point here is, What is Chaos really, and what does it end up doing/creating/causing? You either "get" Carnage, or you don't.

orange: "Exactly Blaque... the character was created to be this ubah killing machine and that is what he has been for 10+ years... an ubah killing machine... except when he goes against superheroes."

It's hard to get much done as an "uber-killing-machine" when you're incarcerated for what? About 10 years?

Well, he's out now and we shall see what happens.

Marvel almost NEVER lets the bad guys win; in fact I cannot think of a single instance where that has happened, even when it would fit the story better if it did, a recent example being Norman Osborn's defeat at the hands of... Luke Cage?! [snicker] Uh, right, that could happen. Anyhoo, I am not sure if this counts as an argument against just Carnage: nobody wins against the heroes.

This stance kind of bores me, but there you go.

That, plus he's a good-lookin' S.O.B.

He is indeed.

You know, I would have told you he totally wasn't my type... but for him, I make an exception... the sight of that man makes my knees go weak... why is he so compelling? He is, though.

Originally posted by fever red
That, plus he's a good-lookin' S.O.B.

Who is? Sorry to interupt the conversation

Good points, really good points.

As it stands, Venom imo is the best character. Carnage is a load of rubbish.

HOWEVER, I do feel pity for Carnage because he has shed-loads of possibilities, and he is never given his due in the writers eyes. This guy could easily become just as interestingas the likes of the big boys Venom, Green Goblin, Dock Ock etc.

The main problem is the lack of a personal touch. Everyone loves a villain that can rip the hero's life apart, torment Peter Parker as well as Spider-Man. All the greatest villains fight Peter Parker. Carnage doesn't really fall into that stable of the "taken to the next level" villains.

It's a shame. Carnage has long been a favourite of mine, but my interest is waning, badly. The writers STILL haven't found a decent hook with him yet and would rather create contrived rubbish rather than the simple genius of the classic villains.

Carnage is still a by-the-numbers villain.

ANother flip side of the coin is that CAN Carnage be any better? I think he can, but maybe the reason he ISN'T up there with Venom and Ock and Gobby is for a good reason - we all need the chaotic lunatic archetype in these sort of things. Would MORE people complain if Carnage WAS taken to the next level, made more personal beef with Spidey, and so on?

Carnage is a bit of an enigma. Something needs to be done with him, but I for sure don't know what the hell it is.
Constant tagging along in Venom's storylines IS NOT the best way to develop it. He really needs to stand alone without Venom, and as of right now, his character cannot seem to do that. That, to me, is NOT a classic villain.

OH HE IS HE IS BTW IN CASE NO ONE KNEW HE WAS CREATED BY AN EVIL SCIENTIST WHO WHEN CAPTURED SPIDERMAN AND VENOM SPLIT THIER DNA AND MIXED IT WITH A SYMBIOTE CREATED A MONSTER THAT WAS CARNIAGE 😉

Well the person posting this thread asked "Why ISN'T Carnage the best villain?" ... and I did my best to answer it.

I like to think I'm a fairly open minded individual; (hell I do write and think up some twisted stuff by most "normal" folks' standards...). To that, I will willingly admit that Carnage has some possibilities both as a villain and a character for future writers to delve into.

HOWEVER, the real stamp of a GREAT villain isn't the total CHAOS factor that you pointed out Cassady possesses in abundance. Instead, villains that have lasting appeal and overall impact on a heroe's life are usually the "thinking" and "calculating" kind... the kind with something driving them other then sheer lunacy.

The only reason Carnage gets by in the books is BECAUSE of his powers, not because of the character himself. In other words if Cassady was equally powered to Venom/Spiderman, (in terms of abilities, strength, etc), he'd be beaten within the span of a page. Instead the writers jacked up his costumes powers to compensate for his lack of forethought as a villain... which gives him a dubious distinction of being a one trick, (albeit supremely chaotic) pony.

Sad thing is, I believe Carnage was originally conceived solely for the purpose of capitalizing on Venom's popularity. That's largely part of why his potential hasn't been fully tapped.
Nemo, off the top of my head I can think of two villains who have had definitve victories. Well, arguably two.
First, Green Goblin 2. The whole "Lifetheft" and "Pursuit" ordeal that he orchestrated. That was a deep blow to Spidey, and Spidey couldn't do a thing about it because Harry was already dead. That one's arguable, though.
The second one is Kraven. I seriously saw "Kraven's Last Hunt" as a victory on his part. Of course, that raises the argument that the only way for the villain to win is to kill himself either before or after achieving victory. I'm wracking my brain to see if I can think of any other examples of the villains winning.

Red, I don't want him to have a personal issue with Parker- I'm with Nemo. Carnage should just be doing HIS thing, with Spidey trying to stop him. To me, that's fresh. It's exciting.
__To take him to the next level, all he needs is more development of his own needs and drives. I thought he was interesting when he kidnapped his child-hood friend, to kill him, and prove that such relationships are unnecessary once you "wake up" to Chaos. There was definitely a suggestion there, of a dissonance between Kasady's memories/conceptions of himself, and reality. Expanded on, that would have entertained me! I'd like to see more of him as the man who wants to divest himself of all weakness- and can't quite break away from his human self, even when a symbiote drops into his lap and makes him virtually unstoppable.
__At the same time, it's impressive to me that he persists. It's fantastic that he takes what he wants- and still isn't satisfied. He's so...human. I love it.

Reading that, I kind of think of Kasady as the Agent Smith of Spider-Man's rogues gallery. It's like, Smith takes over the whole Matrix, but it's still not enough. Carnage starts a riot and kills thousands of people, but it just ain't enough. And no matter what, those two evil bastards just won't die.
Which, of course, is why they're two of my favorite villains.

Originally posted by fever red
Red, I don't want him to have a personal issue with Parker- I'm with Nemo. Carnage should just be doing HIS thing, with Spidey trying to stop him. To me, that's fresh. It's exciting.
__To take him to the next level, all he needs is more development of his own needs and drives. I thought he was interesting when he kidnapped his child-hood friend, to kill him, and prove that such relationships are unnecessary once you "wake up" to Chaos. There was definitely a suggestion there, of a dissonance between Kasady's memories/conceptions of himself, and reality. Expanded on, that would have entertained me! I'd like to see more of him as the man who wants to divest himself of all weakness- and can't quite break away from his human self, even when a symbiote drops into his lap and makes him virtually unstoppable.
__At the same time, it's impressive to me that he persists. It's fantastic that he takes what he wants- and still isn't satisfied. He's so...human. I love it.

No Fever, that's what I meant. I was saying that Carnage has his place as the chaotic archetype, and maybe adding more to his character isn't what he needs at all.

I don't really think Carnage was born totally from Venoms popularity either. It's a mix of Venoms popularity and Venoms direction as a villain. As we know, Carnage was brought in as a clear-cut villain, just as Venom was starting to soften up and tread the "neutral" line.

I think Cranage has his place, he's great. What I don't like is these new symbiotes, we alreday have two, and that's borderring on too many. Two feels just right. The likes of Scream are totally pointless and are born out of Carnage and Venoms popularity.
Three symbiotes pushes it into absurdity and ruins the initial setup. Why try and cheapen your own characters by diluting them with more clones? Thats why I never liked the clone saga much, it diluted Spider-Man as a character. Same thing goes for the syms.

Red, I'm inclined to agree, but at least Toxin was written as a real character, as opposed to Scream and the others, who were just Carnage clones. Toxin has a unique personality and is actually interesting. But there really shouldn't be any more symbiotes. That would be like making more Goblins.
Whoops, spoke too soon...

All we need is another Goblin, right? HobGoblin, GreenGoblin, DemoGoblin, it's all done to death.
I agree, Blaque, that Toxin was maybe a bit deeper and more interesting than any of the other offspring, but after hyping up the stories, I've been so let down by the finished products Marvel has been releasing the past year or so.
The work always seems so hurried--they put so much effort into the art, and the stories are really lacking--and there is no really satisfying closure. It's as if they are in such a hurry to get the garbage onto the shelves that they cram what should be a 5-issue arc into three sloppy books.
Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but for me lately, it's the element that we, the readers add that makes buying the comics worthwhile. I like seeing how the Carnage fans will react to a certain book or frame--and interacting with people about the books has really become more enjoyable than the comics themselves, sadly.