God or No God?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If complexity and order are not necessarily evidence of intelligence, then how do you conclude that there is a "high probability" of intelligence based on the existence of complexity and order?

Its more probable to have order if someone ordered intentionally. Think like this : Its easier to create a painting of a house if you paint it intentionally, than if you just throw paint aleatory specting a pattern of a house to be created.

"An intelligence does not exist," is a negation, of course, it cannot be proven.

Likewise, no one can prove that leprechauns do not exist, but this is not reason to believe that leprechauns do exist.

Thats why I affirmed it. I´m not disagreeing.

"An intelligence exists," is a positive claim, and positive claims can be substantiated.

No, it does not seem logical to unecessarily assume the existence of an intelligence.

Complexity and order do not occur in nature randomly, but according to the laws of physics. This makes the existence of complexity and order in nature highly probable.

I agree, it can be substantiated. But it was not proved yet.

This intelligence would explain the order in the universe in a better way, than just assume that everything was coincidental. Explain everything as coincidences seems to me like a way to ignore facts, its lazyness.

Complexity and order are the laws of physics, they just happen because the laws of physics are conplex, and ordered enough to make all the order we observe happen. Laws of physics would be a ordered structure that has intelligence behind it.

Originally posted by Evil Dead
read again bit[b]ch...........I believe I typed "I don't BELIEVE...."........which makes that long diatribe of yours moot. It helps if you actually read a post before you decide to reply to it.

p.s. science isn't a faith. If you can see it, touch it, taste it, hear it and smell it...........it's real, it's fact. Well........that is unless you're one of these nerds who believe we're all living in the Matrix. [/B]

I can't realy belive everything in science is fact.Every year scientisist change their mind or discover new findings to disprove old belifes.I think the minute someone belives science to be absolute fact,science has failed to do it's job.It like the sun.It rises in the east.Based on what we know it will always do this but we can't say that for a fact it always will.For all we know one day it might pop up in the west instead.What i'm trying to get at is science is just as everchanging as anything else.

True.....We'll never know all the answers....but discovery is such an adventure.....

Once you take off the "I know how it all works"
Then you can enjoy the ride.........................

Originally posted by debbiejo
True.....We'll never know all the answers....but discovery is such an adventure.....

Once you take off the "I know how it all works"
Then you can enjoy the ride.........................

But were are we going?

And

Are we there yet?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But were are we going?

And

Are we there yet?

Not Sure and

Nope..........Hold on................... Never ending Story........Grab tight the reigns.........

Originally posted by debbiejo
Not Sure and

Nope..........Hold on................... Never ending Story........Grab tight the reigns.........

The last time a woman told me that, I spent the night in jail. 😱

😆

Then you woke up?

I'm new to this thread so i just got done reading the conversation. i get that same Question all the time- how do you no God exist. if you read the bible the Lord said that the world was going to get worse. and look at it. It has. if you read the Bible you will see that every thing the Lord tells us is happening right now. i Can't make people belive in God because they have to have faith and thats there disition. Come on now, you don't really belive that a little rock turned into earth just like that and people just suddenly appeared. come on now. the only reason why it might not sound true to other people is because they must not belive in a lot of mirical and they should. i have one more thing to say to all u non belivers, some one is going to try to talk to u about God and faith so just give me a favor and listen to what they have to say.i listened and now even when something unexpected happens i know who to call on. I'm telling u that i never felt so much joy and happiness untill the day i got saved. 🙂

Originally posted by jlee17xoxo412
I'm new to this thread so i just got done reading the conversation. i get that same Question all the time- how do you no God exist. if you read the bible the Lord said that the world was going to get worse. and look at it. It has. if you read the Bible you will see that every thing the Lord tells us is happening right now. i Can't make people belive in God because they have to have faith and thats there disition. Come on now, you don't really belive that a little rock turned into earth just like that and people just suddenly appeared. come on now. the only reason why it might not sound true to other people is because they must not belive in a lot of mirical and they should. i have one more thing to say to all u non belivers, some one is going to try to talk to u about God and faith so just give me a favor and listen to what they have to say.i listened and now even when something unexpected happens i know who to call on. I'm telling u that i never felt so much joy and happiness untill the day i got saved. 🙂

Peace, my friend, I'm happy for you, but I need to tell you what I believe. I used to be like you, but then I began to realize that I was being lied to. So what do you do when you suspect that it's all a lie? You loose faith, and faith is what it's all about, so you don’t want to loose faith. I've been on both sides, and now I’ve found the middle way. I know the doctrine; I know it like the back of my hand. My father told me that Jesus would return by the year 2000. The year is now 2005. The world is not going to end any time soon. The view that the scientists have, about the universe, may be wrong, but I know, for a fact, that Jesus didn’t return in the year 2000 or 1976 or any of the other year that was put fourth. I am sorry, if this post has caused you any harm, I just needed to get that off of my chest. I wish you great happiness.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Its more probable to have order if someone ordered intentionally. Think like this : Its easier to create a painting of a house if you paint it intentionally, than if you just throw paint aleatory specting a pattern of a house to be created.

No, it is not more probable because complexity and order already occur without intelligence.

Once again, your argument commits the logic fallacy of False Analogy as it draws a comparison between two things that are relatively disimlar, e.g. the formation of complexity and order, which can and does occur in the absence of intelligence; and creating a painting of a house, which requires the existence of an intelligent agent.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
This intelligence would explain the order in the universe in a better way, than just assume that everything was coincidental. Explain everything as coincidences seems to me like a way to ignore facts, its lazyness.

Complexity and order are the laws of physics, they just happen because the laws of physics are conplex, and ordered enough to make all the order we observe happen. Laws of physics would be a ordered structure that has intelligence behind it.

Ascribing the existence of complexity and order to an intelligence that is not proven to exist is ignoring the facts.

It is much lazier to explain something as created than it is to try to understand the natural laws that govern it.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, it is not more probable because complexity and order [b]already occur without intelligence.

Once again, your argument commits the logic fallacy of False Analogy as it draws a comparison between two things that are relatively disimlar, e.g. the formation of complexity and order, which can and does occur in the absence of intelligence; and creating a painting of a house, which requires the existence of an intelligent agent.
[/B]

Yes, complexity and order could occur without an intelligence, but it is highly improbable.

You forgot that houses are ordered patterns, and they don´t require intelligent agents to occur, if you don´t paint a house intentionally, then the only way is to say that they happened accidentally, by a aleatory throwing of paint. Now, how do you think its easier to paint a house ? Throwing paint aleatory, or doing it intentionally.

Ascribing the existence of complexity and order to an intelligence that is not proven to exist is ignoring the facts.

To prove things you need to make theories first. I´m creating a theory, not saying that it is a proven fact.

Like many (maybe) i used to believe in God, and i DID hear that he was coming in 2000, but nothing changed. besides, i don't want to waste my time by praying and more every night! at my highschool we have to pray all the time, 7times a day.

Originally posted by shoe-freak
Like many (maybe) i used to believe in God, and i DID hear that he was coming in 2000, but nothing changed. besides, i don't want to waste my time by praying and more every night! at my highschool we have to pray all the time, 7times a day.

Originally posted by mr.smiley
As long as people ask God to be proven to them they'll never see it because they have to many of their own ideas as to what God should be.Wake up!Realize God isn't something to be proven but is the moment here and now.This is God.That is God.We are God.Now forget what I just said and don't take this concept of God as your own.

Start the abstact thinking friends.

Thats what I think too. We cannot just expect all to be proved to us, so we can just sit, and wait. There are things which need to be understand individualy, that cannot be simply proven because we wouldn´t understand the proof. Is not only science that has proofs, science proofs must be understood too, ants wouldn´t understand a scientific proof if you show one to them. If ants could argue, and think probably they would try to find a way to justify their rejection of the scientific proof, just as we reject other kinds of proofs.

We must start thinking in different ways, and those ways are not less valid than any way we usually use. And it is possible to understand that, is not just a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Peace, my friend, I'm happy for you, but I need to tell you what I believe. I used to be like you, but then I began to realize that I was being lied to. So what do you do when you suspect that it's all a lie? You loose faith, and faith is what it's all about, so you don’t want to loose faith. I've been on both sides, and now I’ve found the middle way. I know the doctrine; I know it like the back of my hand. My father told me that Jesus would return by the year 2000. The year is now 2005. The world is not going to end any time soon. The view that the scientists have, about the universe, may be wrong, but I know, for a fact, that Jesus didn’t return in the year 2000 or 1976 or any of the other year that was put fourth. I am sorry, if this post has caused you any harm, I just needed to get that off of my chest. I wish you great happiness.

I can't realy belive everything in science is fact.Every year scientisist change their mind or discover new findings to disprove old belifes.I think the minute someone belives science to be absolute fact,science has failed to do it's job.It like the sun.It rises in the east.Based on what we know it will always do this but we can't say that for a fact it always will.For all we know one day it might pop up in the west instead.What i'm trying to get at is science is just as everchanging as anything else.

but what you speak of is not science.........

a hypothesis is nothing more than an idea.........nobody claims that hypotheses are fact. Everything that has been proven to be scientific fact, is fact. The grass is green because of it's chlorophyl......today, tomorrow, for all time. If one day the grass is not green........one merely needs to examine it to see that it no longer has chlorophyl. Then it will be a scientific fact that grass no longer contains chlorophyl and is not necissarily green any longer.

I'm sorry Smiley but you do rather dumb up the concept. I know you know what you're talking about.......but your simple way of putting things into term is misleading to those like Chibi Boy.

e.g.

you say science says the sun rises in the west. Not true. Science states that at this very moment in time.......the earth's orbit around the sun being what it is.......the earth's rotation being what it is.......the tilt of the earth on it's axis being what it is.........the sun rises in the west. That is fact. Tomorrow it may be different........but only because one or more of the determining variables listed above have changed. No man of science has ever stated that if the Earth had a different orbit, rotation or tilt that the sun would still rise in the west and set in the east.

science is ever changing........but not scientific facts. Science changes as variables change or unknown variables become known. Science does not predict the future, what will happen tomorrow if variables change. It merely states the variables given at this moment will produce the same affects at this very moment.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Yes, complexity and order could occur without an intelligence, but it is highly improbable.

How do you conclude that it is highly improbable for complexity and order to occur without intelligence, when they already do so now?

Originally posted by Atlantis001
You forgot that houses are ordered patterns, and they don´t require intelligent agents to occur, if you don´t paint a house intentionally, then the only way is to say that they happened accidentally, by a aleatory throwing of paint. Now, how do you think its easier to paint a house ? Throwing paint aleatory, or doing it intentionally.

Houses and paintings of houses, as in your previous example, do not require intelligent agents to exist? By all means, explain how a house or a painting of a house can form solely by natural laws.

Again, you are drawing a comparison between two things that are relatively disimilar, e.g. painting a house or making a painting of a house, which requires the existence of an intelligence; and the formation of complexity and order, which can and does occur without an intelligence.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
We must start thinking in different ways, and those ways are not less valid than any way we usually use. And it is possible to understand that, is not just a matter of opinion.

I think there will come a time when science and spirituality will be combined in some way....though not necessary religion.....

or it wont

The more we learn about some science fields....the more we learn about how all the processes work.....But it might be many many, even one hundred years before we get more answers.....For now there are only theories.....And many might be surprised to find that it isn't a god, but something completely different.....