I agree with the comments made by TheOmega and BackFire. It is a womans body and she is entitled to make the decision. I dont see it as murder because it can be preventable. It would be consider illegal and possibly murder ( which i dont see that way ) once the fetus has develop properly. As for the so called "fathers" they are only sperm donors!!!!! A man should not be calling himself a father just because he provided the sperm! A father is someone who takes resposiblities for his actions during the pregnacy. Many man act like men only during sex! Once the woman gets pregnant they run away like COWARDS! So how can it be a decision by a man? Man have no business in the decision! The decision is for the female who has to live with the pregnancy! I dont see why man have a word in this matter!
Originally posted by The Omega
Ush> Why does it cease to be murder just because it cannot live without medical aid? Let me see if I can explain my view-point better then: Up until the child is born, it cannot survive without the woman’s body. It is not an independent organism, so to speak.
Yes, babies are born prematurely, and without hi-tech aid, they would DIE. Again – they’re not independent human beings.
You can call it murder if you want to. But the way I see it, the unborn child is not an independent human being as is the woman. And I’m not sure what you mean about the babies not born prematurely that need medical treatment – I’m talking about an independent individual.
You’re entitled to your opinion on whether or not it is murder. As am I. And please refrain from calling my opinion “disturbing” because it is not yours. Or I’ll call yours sexist and male-chauvinistic, conservative and reactionary.
To in any way call me opinion chauvinistic when it has NOTHING to do with me being a man would simply be pure tiresome gibberish on your part which I can only assume is due to a problem you have being objective with this subject. Feel free to call it that if you want- I will treat such comments with the utter contempt they would deserve and treat that as a reflection on you- someone disagrees with you on a subject like this, so you simply label me chauvinist to discredit my argument. Should be beneath you. I assure you, I would feel the same way regardless of my gender. There are many, many women who share my exact view, in fact I got most of this view from a female friend; is she also chauvinist and sexist? I think you need to put more thought into what you say sometimes and come to terms with the idea that not everyone who disagrees with your views on abortion is doing it because he is a man trying to beat down on your rights- I am raising concerns because I am very worried that much abortion is very. VERY wrong- and if it is that wrong, like I say, I don't give a stuff if it is the man or woman who gets pregnant. If it IS murder... then murder is murder.
Whereas you directly said that if someone is dependant on someone else for life, it is not murder to kill them- that, by common sense, is disturbing. Who you are dependant on for life makes no difference as to whether you have the right to live or not.
I said there are babies born on time, that still need medical treatment to life. It is still murder to kill them, so why isn't it murder to kill them if they were born prematurely and needed such treatment? Why is it murder to kill them if they are OUT the womb receiving the aid needed to live, but is NOT murder to kill them IN the womb being given the same treatment? What magically happened when they left the womb to make them now properly human? The answer is nothing- passing through a vagina does bugger all to decide if you are a sentient being with the rights of a human or not. You say such babies receviing treatment are not independant beings. Kill one and you would end up in prison, I assure you.
There are also babies born prematurely that do NOT need medical aid to live that in some places are legal to abort. But at the point they were in the womb they depended on the Mother for food and oxygen. I cannot see any logical reason why that makes it not murder to kill them, if it would be murder to kill them after being born. Again, what is the point at simply moving from one place to another that made it now no longer legal to kill?
Simply put, whether it is murder has NOTHING to do with whether the baby has actually been born- it is down to whether the baby has actually grown into a human being or not, in OR out the womb.
Like I say, the fact is this- some abortion is murder, and no-one can dispute this with any reason or sense or logic. It is happening in some parts of the world all the time. Now, if someone can actually identify to me the point at which it goes from not being murder to murder- and I really do not care what laws you quote because they differ by country- then I will be impressed.
People say it is when the foetus has developed 'properly'. In theory I agree. So does society, which considers it murder to abort a foetus too late which is why it is illegal. At some point in the process it changes from being a bundle of cells into a human baby, and that point is before birth. But medically, does anyone know when to pin that down? I know sure as heck medical science isn't sure.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
To in any way call me opinion chauvinistic...
Which I didn't, which you'd have noticed if you actually read what I wrote.
I wrote
"please refrain from calling my opinion “disturbing” because it is not yours. Or I’ll call yours sexist and male-chauvinistic, conservative and reactionary. "
Notice the "OR" in there?
On a side-note: The most paradoxical thing ever, are pro-lifers yelling "Save life!" and then killing an abortion-doctor.
I personally don't see abortion as murder, Murder (last time I checked a dictionary) means the killing of a human being, and (in the first 2 months of pregnancy) the "child" isn't even a fetus yet... therefore not classed as a human being... so I wouldn't go as far as to call it murder...
that's my opinion anyway.
Originally posted by The Omega
Which I didn't, which you'd have noticed if you actually read what I wrote.I wrote
"please refrain from calling my opinion “disturbing” because it is not yours. Or I’ll call yours sexist and male-chauvinistic, conservative and reactionary. "
Notice the "OR" in there?On a side-note: The most paradoxical thing ever, are pro-lifers yelling "Save life!" and then killing an abortion-doctor.
And I simply told you my opinion if you went ahead and did that. I stand by what I said- are you going to go ahead and say what you said you would? In which case, my opinion is already made clear.
Originally posted by CandyKoRn
I personally don't see abortion as murder, Murder (last time I checked a dictionary) means the killing of a human being, and (in the first 2 months of pregnancy) the "child" isn't even a fetus yet... therefore not classed as a human being... so I wouldn't go as far as to call it murder...that's my opinion anyway.
I understand your opinion absolutely. My point is, how are you sure about the two months thing? Like I say, that definition changes from country to country. No-one actually knows for sure. The Chinese do it at seven months.
Originally posted by The Omega
On a side-note: The most paradoxical thing ever, are pro-lifers yelling "Save life!" and then killing an abortion-doctor.
I know, I've thought about that too... Like the Oklahoma City bombings, for example, the guy who did that was killing the very thing he was trying to save...