actauly hulk maxing out was only able to bend grade B admatium wolverien has primary admatium which is far stornger and is actauly unbreable ecpt on a molculer level.
Really?
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2907/ouch3ta.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7749/ouch26gw.jpg
Looks breakable to me.
VenomGirl: Nope. See, there are these things called ligaments holding the different parts of your skeleton together. If those were adamantium, Wolverine wouldn't be able to move at all. So conceivably, you could just break him apart at a point where bone is connected to bone by organic ligaments.
This isn't possible with a lightsaber because the blade is too thick, it would get stopped by the bone wherever Maul hit.
Originally posted by Next Venom_girl
Really?http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7749/ouch26gw.jpg
Looks like adamantium can be broken to me.
again were talken about NU wolverine. also ultimate wolverine is very diffrent his boens are like normal people bones there attach not bone to bone so hulk did not break adamtium but rather ripped the muscles holding them to gather. The problem is normal unverses wolverine boens are all attached to eachother making that feat ultimate hulk do impposable to do to normal universe wolverine as seen in this picture.
Originally posted by Next Venom_girl
Really?http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/2907/ouch3ta.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7749/ouch26gw.jpg
Looks breakable to me.
What is that supposed to prove? Ultimate Wolverine has a totally different adamantium bonding process then 616 Wolverine.
Originally posted by Piedmon
-Wolverine had to shake off Psi-Bot's illusory influence to save his g/f Silver Fox (he was just a moment too late, but it's still resisting mind control.)-When he fought SHIVA, the robot used a psionic attack on Wolverine that made him recall with absolute clarity the pain of every injury--physical AND psychological--that he had ever suffered. Wolverine walked right up to SHIVA while enduring this incomprehensible amount of pain and whacked the robot's head off.
-When he was infected with a Brood Egg, Wolverine resisted the physiological transformation into a Brood Drone. His healing factor enabled him to do it, but it was through will-power that he did it at all.
-Wolverine has been gutted, sliced up, burned alive, and just gone "alright w/e." It's not because he's invulnerable, it's because he keeps himself going through sheer willpower.
-Wolverine was willing to sacrifice himself to stay with Elsee-Dee, a little girl android who had moments ago been trying to KILL him. Unless she could rewrite her own programming in the next minute, she was going to detonate. But Logan refused to give up on her, and stayed with her right up until the end. THAT'S willpower.
I can see you've given up on trying to prove that Sidious said anything about willpower protecting Grievous against being tossed by the Force, which implicitly means that you realize that it won't help Wolverine. Give it up. No one's asking Wolverine to give up death sticks. No one's asking Wolverine anything. He's just choking and dying.
Originally posted by Piedmon
What does Grievous being a General have to do with his willpower? Being able to strategize doesn't necessarily require a strong will. It's not like Darth Sidious sat all the candidates down in a room, and put a slice of delicious cake across from them, and whoever was the last to give in and eat the sweet pastry would command the Droid Army.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Right, and that shows you've got more than a few inacurrate assumptions about Wolverine yourself. He looks like he's absolutely feral when he fights, but hell, when your weapons are a big set of freaking claws, it will ALWAYS look like you're going bezerk when you fight.Wolverine goes into his bezerker rages very rarely. When was the last time he did it? It wasn't at any point in House of M. He never did it in any of his New Avengers appearances. (He swore a lot at Jessica Drew, but that's not the same thing.) The last time he did it was when he fought The Gorgon at the end of Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD.
Anyway, you've conceded that Wolverine does in fact go into berserker rages through your answer. So, we agree. Not a very good showing of willpower there.
Again, not that it makes a lick of difference in this case. 😆
Originally posted by Piedmon
Howsabout full-strength punches from The Hulk or Colossus? I seriously doubt Grievous would be laughing those off. And he sure as hell wouldn't jump right back onto his feet and cry, "you just made me mad! And baby, the Wolverine LIKES to get mad!"
Originally posted by Piedmon
Wolverine is able to stay just a hair behind Spider-Man, who has precog AND superhuman reflexes (Maul only has precog). He also beats Elektra and Daredevil, two humans with precognitively enhanced reflexes.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Stack Maul's 15 minutes of screentime and his scattered comic book appearances vs the feats you'd find along Wolverine's whole comic book career. Who do you think is going to come out looking more impressive?
Originally posted by Piedmon
Alright, why not JUST the pinning? For that matter, why not rip the lightsabers out of Grievous's hands? Disarmament and restraining techniques hardly sound too violent for the Jedi Way. And bear in mind, I'm asking this about a Jedi Councilwoman who is much more skilled than Maul was.
Originally posted by Piedmon
You still haven't shown any proof that Maul's telekenetic abilities are better than teenaged Jean Grey in the 60's. Maybe you just missed the part where I asserted that Wolverine was more skilled as a melee fighter, but I've been wondering why you haven't tried to refute that. Your argument basically rests on Maul not only having a degree of Force Mastery we've never seen from him, it also requires him to act out of character.
Originally posted by Melnorme
[B]And none of it will help when he's being strangled to death. 😛I can see you've given up on trying to prove that Sidious said anything about willpower protecting Grievous against being tossed by the Force,
I never said it was a line from Sidious, I don't know where you got that. In the Star Wars D20 Game, resistance against Force Push, Force Choke and Telekenesis skills are all based on a Will Save. That's where I decided it was probably a contest of wills that determined a Jedi's ability to use those powers on a living target. However, I recognize that WotC may have tweaked the nature of the powers a bit from canon in the name of game balance, so I'll just let that drop.
which implicitly means that you realize that it won't help Wolverine. Give it up. No one's asking Wolverine to give up death sticks. No one's asking Wolverine anything. He's just choking and dying.
Funny you make a point of that when you immediately go on to rant about Grievous's supposed indomnitable will.
I'd suggest reading some of his comics. He's more than just a strategist. His will to win, to survive, and to destroy are legendary.
What does it matter then?
Anyway, you've conceded that Wolverine does in fact go into berserker rages through your answer. So, we agree. Not a very good showing of willpower there.
Wolverine's willpower (that is, mental toughness and resistance to mental attacks), along with nearly every other faculty he possesses, goes UP when he's in a bezerker rage. The only thing Wolverine sacrifices when he goes into a bezerker rage (besides fear, doubt or any recognition of pain) is the ability to tell friend from foe. That's it. That's why he holds back in most battles, because if he really let himself go, Wolverine would go flying at his allies as soon as the enemy was dropped.
Right...he likes to get mad and give into his rage. We've covered his lack of willpower already. 😉
Man, I wish I had a pair of ears that were semi-permeable too.
Jedi and Sith also have superhuman reflexes.
Unless they're of an alien species with petranaturally good reflexes, no they aren't. Their reflexes are enhanced by minor precognitive abilities. Wolverine's speed and reflexes have been enhanced by Department H, Weapon Plus, whoever, to be beyond anything that any amount of training can grant you. Ever.
Irrelevant. Wolverine's 30 or so years of jobbing, or his apparent popularity have no place in a KMC bout.
Here's the attitude I really love most. Anytime Wolverine beats someone other than Sea Monkey, it's "PIS" or jobbing. Nevermind the guy was taking punches from an enraged Hulk in his FIRST APPEARANCE. Nevermind CHRIS CLAREMONT had him dodging bullets and taking full-power blows from Colossus. Obviously Len Wein and Double C wouldn't know crap about the REAL Wolverine, as played by Hugh Jackman in the X-Men movie. Can't dodge bullets, knows no advanced fighting moves. It really aggravates me how people ignore MOUNTAINS of hard, irrefutable evidence so they can go on pretending Wolverine is just some drunken boob with claws.
I'm not saying you're one of his irrational haters, I don't know. But you can't write off canon feats as jobbing or stupidity or whatever. I'm sorry if you don't WANT Wolverine to be that powerful. He is. As you put it, "deal."
Maul killed a man who was many times over asked to be a Council member. I fail to see your point.
OK, here's one: if Qui-Gon's so awesome, why didn't he hold Maul down with the force? Also, while he was good in his day (maybe even as good as Windu, although I think he's the best they've had in decades), the Qui-Gon we see in Episode I is aging and getting slower. He's not nearly the fighter he used to be.
Melee is irrelevant.
Seeing as that was Maul's focus in years of training, and his specialty, I think he'd disagree with you.
Wolverine would die like a goldfish outside of its bowl. Maul would only wreck him in melee if he felt like showing off...and between his lightsaber, precog, enhanced reflexes, and Force strike abilities, would dominate Wolverine there, too.
You've gone through this whole debate acting like the burden of proof is soley on me. Nosir, you have to show me why you think Maul can do something that Jedi Master Obi-Wan couldn't, that Shak Ti couldn't, what Qui-Gon couldn't do.
I'm not talking about a force choke. I'm talking about just holding someone still with the force. How come none of these guys could do it, but somehow you insist Maul can?
Even if he could (and he can't) Maul wouldn't because he likes melee, he likes to show off, and overconfidence is one of his personality traits. He'd assume Wolverine was a stupid peasant, and rush into melee and his own demise. End of.
A double-lightsaber weilding, Jedi killing machine, master of the Dark Side versus a hairy Canadian with metal claws? In any bar fight I would want Logan by my side but here I have to go with the Sith.
If you really look at it the two have a lot in common. Both are highly trained assassins, both made to be the ultimate killing machine, and both are quite angry individuals.
Now a Jedi-trained Wolverine would be a totally different matter
Originally posted by Piedmon
I never said it was a line from Sidious, I don't know where you got that. In the Star Wars D20 Game, resistance against Force Push, Force Choke and Telekenesis skills are all based on a Will Save. That's where I decided it was probably a contest of wills that determined a Jedi's ability to use those powers on a living target. However, I recognize that WotC may have tweaked the nature of the powers a bit from canon in the name of game balance, so I'll just let that drop.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Check again. It's when Grievous is training in lightsabers with Dooku. Dooku says something like, "good, but you're holding your blade too tightly," then he knocks it out of Grievous's hand and says, "now too loosely..." then Sidious comes in and they have a pow-wow before the attack on Coruscant.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Funny you make a point of that when you immediately go on to rant about Grievous's supposed indomnitable will.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Wolverine's willpower (that is, mental toughness and resistance to mental attacks), along with nearly every other faculty he possesses, goes UP when he's in a bezerker rage. The only thing Wolverine sacrifices when he goes into a bezerker rage (besides fear, doubt or any recognition of pain) is the ability to tell friend from foe. That's it. That's why he holds back in most battles, because if he really let himself go, Wolverine would go flying at his allies as soon as the enemy was dropped.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Unless they're of an alien species with petranaturally good reflexes, no they aren't. Their reflexes are enhanced by minor precognitive abilities. Wolverine's speed and reflexes have been enhanced by Department H, Weapon Plus, whoever, to be beyond anything that any amount of training can grant you. Ever.
That's a sound argument. 🙄
Originally posted by Piedmon
Here's the attitude I really love most. Anytime Wolverine beats someone other than Sea Monkey, it's "PIS" or jobbing. Nevermind the guy was taking punches from an enraged Hulk in his FIRST APPEARANCE. Nevermind CHRIS CLAREMONT had him dodging bullets and taking full-power blows from Colossus. Obviously Len Wein and Double C wouldn't know crap about the REAL Wolverine, as played by Hugh Jackman in the X-Men movie. Can't dodge bullets, knows no advanced fighting moves. It really aggravates me how people ignore MOUNTAINS of hard, irrefutable evidence so they can go on pretending Wolverine is just some drunken boob with claws.
By the way, Wolverine didn't take a single shot from the Hulk in their first encounter. He got tapped by a glancing blow and went down for the count. But hey, what do I know?
Originally posted by Piedmon
OK, here's one: if Qui-Gon's so awesome, why didn't he hold Maul down with the force? Also, while he was good in his day (maybe even as good as Windu, although I think he's the best they've had in decades), the Qui-Gon we see in Episode I is aging and getting slower. He's not nearly the fighter he used to be.
As for why Qui-Gon didn't try to hold Maul down...I dunno. Maybe he didn't think of it. Maybe he didn't think he was good enough to overcome Maul's potential Force powers. In either case, Maul will think of it, because he's fighting to the best of his abilities with no PIS and Bloodlust on, and Wolverine cannot resist, because he has no Force powers.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Seeing as that was Maul's focus in years of training, and his specialty, I think he'd disagree with you.
Originally posted by Piedmon
You've gone through this whole debate acting like the burden of proof is soley on me. Nosir, you have to show me why you think Maul can do something that Jedi Master Obi-Wan couldn't, that Shak Ti couldn't, what Qui-Gon couldn't do.I'm not talking about a force choke. I'm talking about just holding someone still with the force. How come none of these guys could do it, but somehow you insist Maul can?
Even if he could (and he can't) Maul wouldn't because he likes melee, he likes to show off, and overconfidence is one of his personality traits. He'd assume Wolverine was a stupid peasant, and rush into melee and his own demise. End of. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by Melnorme
So, let's see...being gifted "mutants" in their own rights, and trained by a 20 thousand year old fraternity of psychic ninjas can never give you enhanced abilities, even though you can see the future and alter your metabolism and enhance your senses and move things with your mind alone. That's right...the only way to have good reflexes is to be a member of a race born with them, or to be Wolverine.
"Good" is not to be confused with "superhuman." Superhuman is literally that. Humans cannot do it. Will never be able to do it. Jedi accelerating their own metabolism would still be something taken from the Force (and I've never heard of a Jedi using the force to mess with their own physiology before. Where did you get that from?) A Jedi can preform superhuman feats through the force, but naturally speaking they are still beneath the limits of their species.
Your main defense is that so many of my examples were using council members, who must be of a higher quality than Maul. But Qui-Gon was qualified to be on the council, and was defeated by Maul. So what does that say about your defense?
He was defeated by Maul in a LIGHTSABER duel. Now hold up, because if you think my argument was weak, I just don't know what you'll think of this....
As for why Qui-Gon didn't try to hold Maul down...I dunno. Maybe he didn't think of it. Maybe he didn't think he was good enough to overcome Maul's potential Force powers. In either case, Maul will think of it, because he's fighting to the best of his abilities with no PIS and Bloodlust on, and Wolverine cannot resist, because he has no Force powers.
Wha--? So, YOUR defense rests on basically, the greatest case of P/CIS in history. In hundreds of years of the Jedi Order, nobody thought, "hey--I'll just hold the ****er in place and knock him out!"
We have seen many better Jedi than Maul. Except for Darth Vader, not one of them has tried to use the tactics you're talking about. Not even the Emperor does this. How come he left Luke free to move when he was blasting him with lightning? Why not stick him in place? HE'D have no qualms about it.
Now, I know Lucas isn't the greatest writer since Tolstoy, but you've got to give him more credit than this. Obviously he never intended for the full implications of Force Telekenesis to be realized, or the Jedi would be so overpowered that nothing could stand against them.
Because Jedi don't use the Force in that way for the most part. It's CIS; their belief is that it leads to the Dark Side.
Wuhuh? I'm talking about peacefully subduing someone here. Just use telekenesis to restrain and disarm them until they're in energy-cuffs, then haul off your criminal. Sure would save Obi-Wan and Anakin a whole lot of trouble chasing after that assassin who went after Padme.
Maul doesn't suffer from that belief...he likes the Dark Side. Just as Dooku did, and as we can see, he was able to use the Force to strangle someone and hold them in place. He was able to do it to Obi Wan because of the difference in their relative Force abilities.
Yeah, but here's the thing.... Dooku was a LOT better than Maul. Better as a force wielder, better as a lightsaber fighter. He trained and was probably superior to General Grievous. He was Qui-Gon's old master, for goodness' sake. Just because he does something is no indication that Maul can do it.
The difference between Maul's Force skills and Wolverine's Force skills is even greater than Dooku and Obi Wan, so we can safely conclude that Maul will be able to strangle him and hold him in place. End of story.
Not at all. We've got no reason to think Maul was good enough in the first place. (Luke in Return of the Jedi would hammer Maul into the dirt, btw.)
Even if he could (and he can't) Maul wouldn't because he likes melee, he likes to show off, and overconfidence is one of his personality traits. He'd assume Wolverine was a stupid peasant, and rush into melee and his own demise. End of.[/B][/QUOTE]
This still stands. There's a different between Plot-Induced and Character-Induced Stupidity. Maul's overconfidence is the latter. It's part of who he is. It wasn't "bad writing" that got him killed, it was his own characterization.
Let's compare some facts...
Strength : Wolverine is probably a little bit stronger, but it won't make a difference. No points here.
Speed / reflexes : Same speed and reflexes for both warriors, get over it. No points either.
Experience : Definitely Wolverine. 1 point.
Durability : Definitely Wolverine, again 1 point.
Willpower : Probably Wolverine but hard to prove - only half a point.
Close combat : Wolverine one point.
Long range attack : DM, but we can't say he actually has some heavy long range artillery, so only half a point.
Stamina : Wolverine 1 point.
Feats/enemies defeated : Wolverine 1 point.
Weapons : each a point cuz both weapons are sharp and pointy and like to cut through most metals.
powers : one point for Wolverine for his healing factor and his unbreakable skeleton, and another point for DM for his Force stuff.
Conclusion
DM : 2,5 points
Wolverine : 7,5 points
