36 US soldiers killed in Iraq- IS IRAQ a democracy to far???

Started by MC Mike4 pages
Originally posted by KidRock
Why what? Why do I belive the war was worth it? Becuase I feel that the people or Iraq should be able to vote for there president and have a democracy instead of a dictator who gasses his citizens.. I guess you feel they dont deserve that right but hey thats you.

Yea, let's have a democracy*!

*Certain conditions apply. Elections will be biased toward the ideas of the United States, not Iraq. Some people will be withheld from voting because of false accusations. Others will be dead because of some "smart" bomb missing. Oh, and now innocent people won't die from gassing - innocent people will die from lethal injections.

this whole situation is so sad cry

almost like the black Hawk incodent (sp?)

Originally posted by KidRock
Why what? Why do I belive the war was worth it? Becuase I feel that the people or Iraq should be able to vote for there president and have a democracy instead of a dictator who gasses his citizens.. I guess you feel they dont deserve that right but hey thats you.

I never said they didn't deserve it, but like AC said, the ends don't justify the means, Sure Saddam was bad, but was he THAT bad? no, and was setting up a democracy (in a country that, for the most part, can't handle it) the original Idea? no.
Iraq is a mess, its a political and militaristic disaster. And we are creating mroe terrorists than ever.
War was not worth it.
O and the President probably won't be any better than Saddam, he might even be worse, it wouldn't be the first time the US has done that. (Nicaragua, Columbia.....) He would just be the US's puppet and we'd turn the other way and let him do whatever he wanted as long as he gave us what we want.

(Did anyone else hear/read the artical in "The New Yorker" about the US invading Iran? Scary shit. It's happening again, and I hope to god that people will have brains this time around and nix it before it beings.)

Re: 36 US soldiers killed in Iraq- IS IRAQ a democracy to far???

Originally posted by manny321
IS DEMOCRACY POSSBILE IN IRAQ and WAS THIS WAR WORTH IT??

Yes, democracy is possible in Iraq, but it is not something that can be prescribed. True democracy is only relevent when the country itself demands it and forces it. Any kind of foreign-dictated democracy is not a true democracy as it's flower has not blossomed from the nation's earth.

No, the war was not worth it. If the answer to any question is 'War', then the wrong question is being asked.

The situation is dire, but the only way of restoring order is through more sacrifices...but is it a 'sacrifice', if the people themselves do not choose it?

Yes, democracy is possible in Iraq
remains to be seen

Originally posted by finti
remains to be seen

That's why I used the word 'possible'. Democracy may be realizable, but it is far from a certainty...

as of today it aint even a possibility

Yes, democracy is possible in Iraq

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lol, stop watching BUSH news!!! You think everything your presidents says it true?? Iraq is like Vietnam, not in by how many soldiers were killed but by how it will be solved. It going to be solved by its self by the Iraqi people like vietnam. You can't win a war unless you have the publics support. The Americans should be thankful that iraq isn't only one group of people or that the two Muslims groups don't cooperate. If it was so, the US would be long gone.

My point is that you can only stop terrorism if you stop feeding the fire to it!!! such as taking over countries!!! Get the damn terrorit leaders themsleves sitting in westren pakistan.

Originally posted by manny321
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lol, stop watching BUSH news!!! You think everything your presidents says it true?? Iraq is like Vietnam, not in by how many soldiers were killed but by how it will be solved. It going to be solved by its self by the Iraqi people like vietnam. You can't win a war unless you have the publics support. The Americans should be thankful that iraq isn't only one group of people or that the two Muslims groups don't cooperate. If it was so, the US would be long gone.

Oh dear...someone needs to look beyond his own nose and learn to read...

bush shouldnt've invaded iraq and all but i guess iraq will b better now... yes all those lives taken by americans in iraqi soil weer unfair... but we cant chage the past 😬 we shouldnt still b focusing on how bad bush was cuz no matter what we do he'll b president for the next few years, nothjing we can do about it...

however... now iraqi women have more liberty their husbands wont hit 'em any more they're starting to have more rights, etc. so us democrats MUST accept that even thougjh bush's an ******* he did in a very wicked sick stupid way helped a tiny eety bit the iraqis...

the past erm we shouldnt still b focusing on how bad bush was cuz no matter what we do he'll b president for the next few years, nothjing we can do about it...

There is something you can do, it's called impeachment or demand a resignation. He is put into power by the people, problem is everyone seems to forget that.

however... now iraqi women have more liberty their husbands wont hit 'em any more they're starting to have more rights, etc. so us democrats MUST accept that even thougjh bush's an ******* he did in a very wicked sick stupid way helped a tiny eety bit the iraqis...

Because democracy has stopped spousal abuse in America? Violence against woman is a cultural thing, a new government in Iraq is not going to concern itself with that (unfortunately).

oh please i know damn wel women in america have rights for ****s sakes! if a woman in america talks to her neighboor she wont be killd in martir, will she? now **** off and open ure eyes!

Don't know what "martir" means and ease up on the hostility there bub. The current occupation of Iraq has not affected women's rights there whatsover at the moment. And there is no reason to believe that they are going to shange their entire belief structue in the near future.

I think it's you who need to open their eyes.

martir
martir ??? stirred Martini?? nothing for 007 then

he likes his shaken 😂

Now back on topic, about bringing Democracy to a country it all depends on the political culture.

The most important study conducted about political culture was done by Gabriel Almond and Sidney Verba, in 1963: "The Civic Culture"
They tried to show that the stability of democratic systems depends on the opinions of the populations. In countries where the population supports the democratic principles and values democracy appears to work better than in countries were this is not the case. (Quite obvious)

Almond and Verba distinguised three possible forms of political culture.
1) Parochial political culture: There is no distinction between the political domain and other domains of society. The leader of the local community is also the religious, jurdic, political and military leader (starts to ring a bell right?)

2) Subject polititcal culture: in this system the ordinairy civilian has very little or no power, they are only subjects, usualy to an absolute monarch. The only thing that is accepted from the citizens is that the obay the law.

3) Participant political culture: Here it is expected that the citizens are actively participating in political and social events. They do not only participate in elections but also in other ways.

Now based on these three archtypes Almond and Verba made the most ideal political culture called "The civic culture" which means the citizens are not too active, they respect the laws even tho they do not always like them. But they are expected to participate to a serious extend.

Now this theory is not without critism (which I will spare on everyone)

However if we do accept, which is not proven, that there is a causality between political culture and stable democracy. Iraq was indeed a democracy too far.

On Dec. 22, 2004, Iraqi Finance Minister Abdel Mahdi told a handful of reporters and industry insiders at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. that Iraq wants to issue a new oil law that would open Iraq's national oil company to private foreign investment. As Mahdi explained: "So I think this is very promising to the American investors and to American enterprise, certainly to oil companies."

It turns out that Abdel Mahdi is running in the Jan. 30 elections on the ticket of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution (SCIR), the leading Shiite political party. While announcing the selling-off of the resource which provides 95 percent of all Iraqi revenue may not garner Mahdi many Iraqi votes, but it will unquestionably win him tremendous support from the U.S. government and U.S. corporations.

Regardless of what happens in the elections, for at least the next year during which the newly elected National Assembly writes a constitution and Iraqis vote for a new government, the Bush administration is going to control the largest pot of money available in Iraq (the $24 billion in U.S. taxpayer money allocated for the reconstruction), the largest military and the rules governing Iraq's economy. Both the money and the rules will, in turn, be overseen by U.S.-appointed auditors and inspector generals who sit in every Iraqi ministry with five-year terms and sweeping authority over contracts and regulations.

Originally posted by finti
martir ??? stirred Martini?? nothing for 007 then

i knew finti was gonna get it right! 😄

and u guys dont know what it means?!?! damn u ppl...

and well either women do have rights now or the media here in china's totall bullshit... oh and in germany and in south america (my aunt from germany came and she brought a magazine where there was an article about new rights in iraq) and a friend of my mom's brought a magazine from south america (argentina) and there was this article about new beauty salons in iraq and how women are more confident and have more rights blah blah)

Sure all the islamic men changed there mind, I believe you ✅