Originally posted by Darth Revan
Obviously you know NOTHING about Islam. You've just swallowed everything the media has been telling you about Islam, which is absolutely false. The word "Jihad" doesn't mean "holy war" as you may have been told, it means "conflict". Jihad is any kind of conflict, and under the religious context, it is a conflict in the name of God. More often than not, it is an internal conflict. People who use Jihad as an excuse to commit terrorist acts are extremists who are misusing their religion. In the Qu'ran it says that actual war is only acceptible if someone is preventing you from practicing your religion. Not even oppressing you in another sense, they must be stopping you from being a Muslim. Islam teaches peace and tolerance towards all people more than anything else.Islam also teaches that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" who basically have the right idea about religion and are treated as fellow Muslims, but who follow outdated and misinterpreted versions of the truth. How nice of Christianity to return the favor.
"People who use Jihad as an excuse to commit terrorist acts are extremists who are misusing their religion. "
"In the Qu'ran it says that actual war is only acceptible if someone is preventing you from practicing your religion."
this is from the koran.....
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
looks like your not just going to kill people that hinder your practice of religeon according to the koran. It appears that they are instructed to seek you out and murder you. "slay them wherever you find them", this means not as a act of defense but rather when you find them kill them. These are directions from the koran.
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)
I thought you said that they teach that christians and jews "have the right idea of religeon," it appears you are also misguided in this. How much more point blank can you take this quote other than islam is the only way.
here you need more for that point?
"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
that is from the koran
you say
"Islam also teaches that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" who basically have the right idea about religion and are treated as fellow Muslims,"
sounds like you are grossly misrepresenting islam in the very least
does not sound like that great respect you have described.
you have also said "Islam teaches peace and tolerance towards all people more than anything else."
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)- koran
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
This is from their own koran. They are directed to behave this way. Sure there are good muslims that don't go around and slaughter people and are hate mongers of other people, BUT, is this what the koran teaches?? You have the peacefull muslims out there but the question is What does the Koran teach. Well according to the koran probably 95 percent of us in these threads( saying for the sake of argument 5 percent of us are islamic) should be killed. Don't try to water down what is written in the Koran. It teaches to slaughter those who are not islamic. People that kill in the name of islam are doing as they are instructed by there book.
Originally posted by moviejunkie23
[BThis is from their own koran. They are directed to behave this way. Sure there are good muslims that don't go around and slaughter people and are hate mongers of other people, BUT, is this what the koran teaches?? You have the peacefull muslims out there but the question is What does the Koran teach. Well according to the koran probably 95 percent of us in these threads( saying for the sake of argument 5 percent of us are islamic) should be killed. Don't try to water down what is written in the Koran. It teaches to slaughter those who are not islamic. People that kill in the name of islam are doing as they are instructed by there book. [/B]
All I will say is that any book of God, whether the Bible, Torah or Qur'an, can be misinterprated to mean many different things.
Look at Jehova witnesses, don't they go around telling everyone of their religion? Don't they believe that it is the only religion that will lead to salvation? Again, you are forgetting the Crusades. It was a holy war in which christians were the wrong-doers. (no offense intended)
In Qur'an, (sorry I can not quote you a surah since any website you go to is forgery and provides false information to darken the religion by quoting a part of the whole, the part that will lead others to the wrong path) it says to attack the ones who attack you ONLY. Meaning that they come towards you with a sword with full intention of killing. During the many wars in the early years of Islam, Muhammad (the Prophet) strictly ordered his believers to slay whoever attacks you, leave the women and the children and do not force your religion upon others. Muslims follow the teachings of Muhammad and if you look at the correct historical texts, not the forged websites, you will see the truth.
"All I will say is that any book of God, whether the Bible, Torah or Qur'an, can be misinterprated to mean many different things. "
sure it is true anyone can manipulate anything they want to, but to incite violence the koran does not need to be manipulated, only followed.
On the other hand how can you mis read christ that says those who live by the sword die by the sword, also he says to love your enemyand pray for them, also he says not to cast stones.
The Koran on the otherhand you are justified in killing someone. I got these quotes from the koran, if you do not agree with them then go look them up were they are in the koran is written next to the quotes.
ok raven made the same point that is says only attack when you are attacked or if your religeon is in danger, ok here ....""Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)" this is stating to wage wars to unbelievers plain and simple, you do not need to misquote this to do harm to others. People that are islamic and do harmfull things to others are justified by the koran to do so. THIS IS NOT MANIPULATING THE KORAN!! it is following it.
IX. 5-6: " Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them."
"when you encounter those infedels who deny islam then strike their necks" (sura 47 verse 4)
so for instance all of those people that have had their heads cut off on camera, that was directed by the koran to any followers that took it literal. They are not taking anything out of context, they are following how their religeon is taught.
On the other hand when one of jesus disciples cut off a mans ear jesus rebuked him and healed the man and stated, "those that live by the sword die by the sword"
You must see there is a difference between the teachings. Its as plain as day. One religeon you are justified in killing a man the other one you are urged to love your enemies and to pray for those that persecute you.
Originally posted by moviejunkie23
"People who use Jihad as an excuse to commit terrorist acts are extremists who are misusing their religion. "
"In the Qu'ran it says that actual war is only acceptible if someone is preventing you from practicing your religion."this is from the koran.....
"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)looks like your not just going to kill people that hinder your practice of religeon according to the koran. It appears that they are instructed to seek you out and murder you. "slay them wherever you find them", this means not as a act of defense but rather when you find them kill them. These are directions from the koran.
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)
I thought you said that they teach that christians and jews "have the right idea of religeon," it appears you are also misguided in this. How much more point blank can you take this quote other than islam is the only way.
here you need more for that point?
"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)that is from the koran
you say
"Islam also teaches that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" who basically have the right idea about religion and are treated as fellow Muslims,"sounds like you are grossly misrepresenting islam in the very least
does not sound like that great respect you have described.
you have also said "Islam teaches peace and tolerance towards all people more than anything else."
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)- koran
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)This is from their own koran. They are directed to behave this way. Sure there are good muslims that don't go around and slaughter people and are hate mongers of other people, BUT, is this what the koran teaches?? You have the peacefull muslims out there but the question is What does the Koran teach. Well according to the koran probably 95 percent of us in these threads( saying for the sake of argument 5 percent of us are islamic) should be killed. Don't try to water down what is written in the Koran. It teaches to slaughter those who are not islamic. People that kill in the name of islam are doing as they are instructed by there book.
I will admit that I have not read the entire Qu'ran, but then neither have you. I noticed that the first passage isn't even complete. Where did you find these quotes? I don't doubt that they are there, but if you think such notions are unique to Islam you need to crack open your Bible and read some of the book of Leviticus, much of which, I will remind you, is not followed by Christians. Not all of the Bible is to be taken literally and not all of the Qu'ran or the Torah is to be taken literally either. The things I said were mostly things I've heard firsthand from Muslims.
If you want what I think is a very accurate representation of Islam as a whole, read some of this site. English obviously isn't the guy's first language, and the spelling/grammar is a little off in a lot of places, but it's still an interesting read.
hey i skimmed through a good potion of that sight you had the link for. I found a couple things of interest read these..........
[ Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of Dawud (David) and Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). That was because they disobeyed (Allah and the Messengers) and were ever transgressing beyond bounds. * They used not to forbid one another from Al-Munkar (wrong, evil-doing, sins, polytheism, disbelief) which they committed. Vile indeed was what they used to do. ] (Al-Maidah:78-79)
This is an example of one of the nations cursed by Allah Almighty and Allah shows us the reasons behind this curse that befell the Children of Israel... The reason of this curse is that they never prohibited each other from doing wrong. Instead of admonishing one another, they shared the sins of the sinners... Should we the nation of Islam stand helpless against this plague till destroyed our morals and manners befall us, and keep silent?… No, that will never be… We will never be cursed like the Israelis because, as Allah described us, we are the best of peoples raised up for mankind.
This is Allah's rule amongst His creatures. Whoever spares no effort in propagating Allah's religion, affecting reform, enjoining what is right and prohibiting what is wrong is safe from Allah's Wrath or destruction. Add to this that Allah opens to them the treasures of His Blessings both in earth and heaven. On the other hand, if people see others sin and say, "Who cares?" and if people consider that other people's sins are none of their business, if we are to see wrongs done and seal our mouths as if we saw nothing, this is the indicator of Allah's imminent wrath and the nation's forthcoming the nation’s destruction. As Allah says: "[ And never would We destroy the towns unless the people thereof are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, oppressors and tyrants) ] (Al-Qasas:59).
pay special close attention to the last quote he gives. We do not destroy towns UNLESS they are what they concieve of to be wrong. So they are justified yet again by anotehr piece of scripture to kill those that do not belive in islam
the person that quoted that also stated that you should see peoples sins as your business and to act upon it and then giving that quote that would incite violence. It appears even from this sight that is supposedly a good voice for islam, genocide is proven to be a message that comes from the koran. You stated this sight is a accurate representation of islam and i don't disagree, he backs up what he says by the koran
ealier he also voiced that it appeared he thought both christians and jews were cursed and backed it up by the koran. This is not a indicator that they do not judge christians and jews sorley.
Also i know it is stated in the old testement certain things "don't suffer a witch to live" also it states somewhere i believe to kill gay people if i am not mistaken. These things i do not practice.
Jesus also said not to practice those acts. He said those that have not sinned cast the first stone. I follow his teachings and in that context i am not justified in killing others for my beliefs. So as a christian if i follow the teachings from christ i will not do those things because he teaches otherwise
on the otherhand the koran does not state it was once said to cut those that don't belive by the necks but now i tell you......
no those teachings are opened to be practiced NOW IN THE PRESENT. And when those men rammed airplanes into the twin towers they were following the koran, not a misinterpritation. When they cut someones head off it is literaly followed by the koran quote i stated ealier about cutting from the neck.
Now i want to also stress I believe there are muslims that do great things!!! i belive there are plenty with good hearts that don't accept the idea of killing others because they have love in their hearts!!!! but is this what they are taught by the Koran??? you see what i am getting at. The teachings for genocide are their in the koran and it does not specify not to do those activities anymore.
finti, if a christian kills in the name of christian faith, then they have a false faith...it says everywhere in the bible that murder is a sin...murder and killing aint considered as the same, and it doesnt say it everywhere in the bible, and the same bible tells stories of a murdering god, the flood, Sodome and Gomorrah the exodus. What a confused bunch of followers you are, one day it is ok the next it aint.
finti, if a christian kills in the name of christian faith, then they have a false faith...this is what christians always hide behind, all other religion are brutal people buthcering in the name of their religion , but oh the crhistians that have doen it aint christians. Always trying to run away from their past.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, only immediate family members have the automatic right to visit one another in the hospital or to make medical decisions for a loved one. Same-sex couples can be denied the right to visit a sick or injured loved one in the hospital. Next time, refrain from posting unless you know what you are talking about.
Guss what? No one gives a ****
“Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for ) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens” (Surah 47:4)
I believe this is the full quote you were referring to, the other (9:121) is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an, if you want I can copy the correct verse as well.
Back to the quote, is specifically states that "smite their necks" <i>in fight</i>, it later continues to mention that "until the war lays down its burden." The voilence amongst the "infidels" you refer to is during the war where everyone is your enemy. This is what Muslims during the war times were told to do when you conquer a land: preach them about Islam, and if they choose not to accept and believe, provide food, shelter and protection to them and ask them to pay for it, and let them to as they please. The only exception is that they were allowed to practice their religion privately but not openly, as in create churches and display the cross openly. NOWHERE in the teaching of Islam, in the Qur'an or the Hadith (teachings of Muhammad) did it say to kill whoever does not accept the religion.
Originally posted by moviejunkie23
As Allah says: "[ And never would We destroy the towns unless the people thereof are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, oppressors and tyrants) ] (Al-Qasas:59).pay special close attention to the last quote he gives. We do not destroy towns UNLESS they are what they concieve of to be wrong. So.
This is where you interpreted the quote unjustly. In the beginning of the quotations, it states "Allah states" that means that it is the word of Allah who is speaking. Remeber, Muhammad was just a massenger of Allah to provide guidance. So when He continues, "never would We destroy towns unless...." it is saying that God (Allah) will not do harm unless so and so, it is not in a Muslim's authority or power to punish whoever is not following the religion. Allah will take care of whatever has do be done. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed for voilence UNLESS it's a war. You need to make note of that.
so what keeps a muslim from excercising its violence whenever it feels its neccassary like for instance the twin towers. State what it says in the koran that would prevent a terrible act such as that. I quoted to you dozens of lines in the koran that back it up
((( "never would We destroy towns unless...." it is saying that God (Allah) will not do harm unless so and so, it is not in a Muslim's authority or power to punish whoever is not following the religion. Allah will take care of whatever has do be done. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed for voilence UNLESS it's a war. You need to make note of that.)))
You don't think that you can easily read the koran as promoting to help destroy those villages by it saying "slay them wherever you find them"
"Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, oppressors and tyrants)"
those are the people that are stated are fair game to kill in that village that they are instructed are to destroy. look closley....wrong doers??? They consider homosexuality to be wrong. That means they have open reign to kill them if homosexuality is accepted. disbelivers in the oneness of allah??? so if your not islam you are in the group of people that are to be killed in this village as well.
Lets make this clear also and i will say it again "SLAY THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM!!!"
The thing is you state that these things are only supposed to be followed when in war, well according to slay them wherever you find them and other wordage that would point towards being on the offensive and not defensive it is open game for a war anytime you feel its a good idea. Why do you think there are so many conflicts in the middle east?? maybe its because they are following the directions of the koran.
So yes Only do these natrasities against non muslims unless they repent in a time of war. How would you feel if a christian put someone to sword point and said repent or die, only during a time of war of course, is that ok or would you think that thats a bad behavior?
And i might add if a christiand DOES do that behavior he is going against the instruction from the teachings of jesus himself.
As opposed to a follower that can lop off your head if you refuse to become islamic according to the koran, only in war of course right?? that makes genocide and conversion by the sword ok??
"this is what christians always hide behind, all other religion are brutal people buthcering in the name of their religion , but oh the crhistians that have doen it aint christians. Always trying to run away from their past."- finti
christians that do terrible things are going agaisnt their teachings. There is something there to try to prevent it. What is in the koran that prevents these sort of terrible actions?? i have given you quotes from the koran that back it up.
what was in the viking belief system anyway that prevented vikings to butcher and rape people??? You are ready to point at the christians for past wrong doings and the such but as someone who is a decendant of vikings you must no how ruthless and bloodthirsty your past peoples were.
"murder and killing aint considered as the same, and it doesnt say it everywhere in the bible, and the same bible tells stories of a murdering god, the flood, Sodome and Gomorrah the exodus. What a confused bunch of followers you are, one day it is ok the next it aint."
Who is confused? Its god wrath not humans. Jesus said himself vengance is the lords. Then he instucts very clear that christians are not to be the hand of the wrath but rather the hand of mercy and love.
Its very clear.
"Refrain from harming others for this will be egarded as a cheritable deed for your own good" (3:694 - O.B.).
Islam says to offer respect even to the slaves. "[...] one should not say, 'My slave,' or 'My slave-girl', but he should say 'My lad', "my lass' and 'My boy'" (3:734 - O.B.).
"Alla's messanger (Muhammad) named War: Deceit"
During war times, narrated Abu Musa, the Prophet said, "Free the captives, feed the hungry and pay a visit to the sick" (4:282 - o.b.).
So you see in these few examples, Islam teaches peace and forbids maltreatment of anyone, whether they are Muslims or not.
I say it again, instead of going to different websites in hopes of finding the answers to your query, I suggest you get a translation of Qur'an and see things with your own eyes and open yourself to a fair interpretation. By saying Qur'an teaches voilence is unjust to the Muslims. Those who attacked America on 2001 were nothing but extremist who take verses of Qur'an and morph them into their own meanings. They MISINTERPETED it. Do not do the same thing as them.
Moviejunkie.. you are mistaken. For the wrongdoers in Qur'an for the Muslims, it is said that they will be punished in Hell and will have a life full of frustrations... THEY CAN NOT GO FREE. What about what you are doing to Iraq and Afghanistan? You killed millions of people and named that "casualties are part of war." Is it not the same thing as killing during times of war? Muslims believe to attack and kill only the ones that confront you and that was in the days of swords and such, MASS KILLING AND MURDER IS FORBIDDEN AND GREATLY PUNISHABLE BY ALLAH. No where in the teachings of Qur'an the terrorist were justified in doing what they did. No where in the teachings of Qur'an are they justified for beheading innocent captives. Even the captives are taught, by Muhammad, to treat them with respect once they provide no resistance.
Where exactly in the Qur'an does it say to "slay wherever you find them." You will do me a favor by looking it up. DO NOT TAKE A VERSE AND JUDGE THE WHOLE QUR'AN BY IT. They are great punishments for Muslims who don't follow the teachings of Islam where peace is the number one thing. If you are one to cause mayhem among the innocent, you are to punished with full strength.
Islam does not forgive Muslim wrongdoers. Infact, if they do such vile acts, they are not to be called Muslim at all but one of the Zalimun.
what was in the viking belief system anyway that prevented vikings to butcher and rape people??? You are ready to point at the christians for past wrong doings and the such but as someone who is a decendant of vikings you must no how ruthless and bloodthirsty your past peoples were.Vikings came from a warrior cult where violence was part of their religion. So they didnt do anything wrong from their point of view, bloodshed was part of their beliefs. We who are descendants of the Vikings havent ran away and tried to distance ourself from the past either, unlike the christians. The Viking age started as a countermove towards the Vatican's political, economical and religious goal of Northern Europe through Charlemagne( Charles 1)expansion.
Who is confused? Its god wrath not humans. Jesus said himself vengance is the lords. Then he instucts very clear that christians are not to be the hand of the wrath but rather the hand of mercy and love.stop calling your god just and loving then, cause all this god is aint nothing but a ruthless vindictive butcher
Originally posted by moviejunkie23
So they are justified yet again by anotehr piece of scripture to kill those that do not belive in islam
WTF? You took one thing and completely jumped to a conclusion about it. That passage didn't say anything about literally killing people who sin, it just says not to ignore them. Now, you could take that one way and kill them, which is what our suicide bomber friends do. Or, you could do something called TALKING to them and teaching them about your religion. Which, although possibly irritating, is exactly what Christians try to do.