The Real Terror: The Rise of Xian Fundamentalism

Started by Silver Stardust7 pages

Oh ha ha.

The fact that I like to keep informed about things makes me ignorant about ignorance.

Tell me, did you come up with that yourself? Because I've never heard it used before.

Sometimes you need to learn to shut up. You're sitting here taking down people who disagree with you...well guess what. Not everyone in the world has to agree with you. Thinking that what you post is non-sensical bullshit does NOT make one ignorant, it means that we have a different opinion. So Bush makes a lot of Christian references. So ****ing what. It does NOT make the US a fundamentalist state, not by far. If he tore down seperation of church and state, declared that everyone MUST be Christian, and set up a dictatorship, then it'd be different. But it isn't the case, and isn't even remotely CLOSE to the case. Seperation of church and state says that no official religion can be established, religion is not allowed in public schools or the government, and that the government cannot give money to religious organizations. It does NOT say that the president can't talk about God and Jesus and whatnot. That is allowed under our First Amendment, which protects freedom of speech, expression, the press, and religion. And since what he says does NOT restrict the rights of any other citizens, there is nothing wrong with it. You can disagree with it, sure. I am no fan of Bush, and in fact strongly dislike him, his policies, and more or less everything he's done while in office. But while I may disagree with what someone says, I will defend to the death their right to say it. I don't necessarily like what Bush says (being as I'm not a Christian), but he has the right to say what he wants.

Originally posted by Silver Stardust
Sometimes you need to learn to shut up. You're sitting here taking down people who disagree with you...well guess what. Not everyone in the world has to agree with you. Thinking that what you post is non-sensical bullshit does NOT make one ignorant, it means that we have a different opinion. So Bush makes a lot of Christian references. So ****ing what. It does NOT make the US a fundamentalist state, not by far. If he tore down seperation of church and state, declared that everyone MUST be Christian, and set up a dictatorship, then it'd be different. But it isn't the case, and isn't even remotely CLOSE to the case. Seperation of church and state says that no official religion can be established, religion is not allowed in public schools or the government, and that the government cannot give money to religious organizations. It does NOT say that the president can't talk about God and Jesus and whatnot. That is allowed under our First Amendment, which protects freedom of speech, expression, the press, and religion. And since what he says does NOT restrict the rights of any other citizens, there is nothing wrong with it. You can disagree with it, sure. I am no fan of Bush, and in fact strongly dislike him, his policies, and more or less everything he's done while in office. But while I may disagree with what someone says, I will defend to the death their right to say it. I don't necessarily like what Bush says (being as I'm not a Christian), but he has the right to say what he wants.

Where to start...where to start...?

The only people I am 'taking down' are you and finiti. finiti can't get over a simple abbreviation that he/she understands(!?!?!) and you simply don't comprehend what I'm saying.

I'll quote myself seeing as I'm so insightful:

I'm not arguing that the influence of the Xian-right is in violation of the religion-state divide, but rather that it is present and extremely influential. This does not occur to the same extent in other developed nations such as Canada, Austrailia and most of Europe.

With the US as the only current superpower, their influence on the world is enormous. If this influence is directed, in part, by the Xian beliefs of those in control then the religious oppression of other faiths is equally enormous.

If you wish to participate in this discussion - and of course you are perfectly welcome to - please try to understand it.

Oh and "yes"...that little ignorance thing was all me.

No, I do understand clearly what you're saying. And it is, like Ush said, inane gibberish.

And arrogance is not becoming.

...and is typing out the extra 5 letters to say "Christian" instead of "Xian" really THAT hard?

Way to toot your own horn.

A) Xian does NOT mean Christianity, Not at all, never had, never will. Go ahead Google it, Go to dictionary.com or whatever and look it up. It does not mean Christianity. Your completly wrong there. \

B) "Please try to understand it" HYPOCRITE!, Understand your own post before trying to talk about it.

C) With the US as the only current superpower, their influence on the world is enormous. If this influence is directed, in part, by the Xian beliefs of those in control then the religious oppression of other faiths is equally enormous.

US is NOT the only superpower, probably the biggest but not the only one, China is another superpower, and may even be bigger than the US someday soon....

D) The beliefs of the president do not nessesarily mean that the whole country feels the same way,
Sure I'l Bet Bush believes that God is on his side, But so do the Iraqi's, Who is correct??

What did you write, I read it, but it was stupid, you basicly said nothing but "Bush beleives in Jesus..." Over and over and over....

Originally posted by Silver Stardust
No, I do understand clearly what you're saying. And it is, like Ush said, inane gibberish.

Now you're saying that you understand 'inane gibberish'!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Oh, it's too good to be true!

Now who's talking about ignorance? I shall break it down for you.

Inane gibberish = COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

Originally posted by Tptmanno1
Way to toot your own horn.

A) Xian does NOT mean Christianity, Not at all, never had, never will. Go ahead Google it, Go to dictionary.com or whatever and look it up. It does not mean Christianity. Your completly wrong there. \

B) "Please try to understand it" HYPOCRITE!, Understand your own post before trying to talk about it.

C) With the US as the only current superpower, their influence on the world is enormous. If this influence is directed, in part, by the Xian beliefs of those in control then the religious oppression of other faiths is equally enormous.

US is NOT the only superpower, probably the biggest but not the only one, China is another superpower, and may even be bigger than the US someday soon....

D) The beliefs of the president do not nessesarily mean that the whole country feels the same way,
Sure I'l Bet Bush believes that God is on his side, But so do the Iraqi's, Who is correct??

What did you write, I read it, but it was stupid, you basicly said nothing but "Bush beleives in Jesus..." Over and over and over....

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ...all 'no'.

'Xian' is my term, I've explained it...it makes sense...move on.

China is not yet a 'superpower', but is fast becoming one.

Thanks for coming out, don't forget your coat when you leave.

No it doesn't its retarted....
"xian" Is retarted.
Its stupid and pointless and misleading.

You continue to 'babble' about the title - rather than discuss the actual thread
I was just pointing out the fact that you were the only one finding the xian as so bloody clever, you obvious couldnt handle that people in here thought otherwise. Hence your "attacks" on those who questioned it.

Perhaps it is that you have nothing to contribute to the thread in regards to the topic of discussion and so you seem to have decided to wallow away your hours on a rather ingenious abreviation of mine...[
contribute to the thread, a thread that started of with utterly BS?.
Dont know how old you are, but right before and after every election in the US conservative christians rattle their chains, this time the Prez himself is a conservative christian and he has brought personal ways into the presidency and campaign. The fact is that Bush was dependent on these conservative christians to be eleceted. And taken the fact that the US is at war too really boosts the ways of these conservative christians. Now this stuff will cool down and US will be back to "normal" within the time for summer. If you have observed several elections in the US you would have seen this thing to happen every time, it heat up before the election and last to about 5-6 months after the presidential inauguration.

Outside of the US, most people overtly recognise the ideological belief system behind the campaign as a Xian one
well here in Europe almost every nation thinks they do it for oil, and thats what all the protests against the war has been all about too.

This is because nearly all other democratic nations have long given up the ridiculous linking of the Church and the State
oh really. Which ones?? Since most European countries have not I wonder which are these so called other democratic countries you refer too.

Do you not think by making Xianity a direct force behind America's 'War on Terror' half the globe is being alienated?

No I dont think thats the case, and half of NATO is supporting the war which again is half of Europe
The majority of the Muslim nations under attack are poor, so their only response to what they see as a fully fledged 'war' is through diabolical acts of terrorism as they lack the capabilities in the most part to act in any other way.

the majority? majority of two countries?, Iraq is poor because the despot his kins and the rest who were in charge took all the money thats why that country is poor, as for Afghanistan yeah they are poor.
Afghanistan under the Taliban regime harbored and protected terrorist cells long before they were attacked.

I find it disgusting that America believes it has a right to do this.
well that is your opinion which you are entitled to so know we know your stand.

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
China is not yet a 'superpower', but is fast becoming one.

What the bloody hell are you talking about? they have been a economic and militaristic super power for years! not only do they have the biggest standing army in the world but they are also the only country that would be able to win a war with the United States. Look at the statistics, the U.S department of defense has admitted that the U.S pacific fleet, the "largest and most powerful" will not be able to defeat the Chinese navy in one year. beyond that, china has a standing army of over 2 million (including support personnel) and they have the largest population on the face of this planet so if they wanted, they could easily pull off the "Russian Bulldozer" tactic of just hurling thousands of men at an enemy until they are overrun.

Originally posted by Ou Be Low hoo
And as for WindDancer...

...sychophancy is not a desirable trait in any man, woman or fish.

You took my last comment as flattery towards Finti and Ushgarak? Well, I don't see why even bothering with acknowledgin my simple reply to two previous posts. Seens it bother you or something.

Anyways, let's make this a clear topic without any hidden meaning or alphabetical abbreviations or any other bullcrap. Lets talk without any useless sarcasm or pointless witty remarks.

What you're basically saying (correct me if I'm wrong without sarcasm) is that the real terror comes from the USA because we (notice that includes me) are Fudamental Christians that have taken the role of Crusaders and we're invading the Eastern world because we want to convert muslims into christianity and we want to steal their treasures (oil, land, and whatever else). Is that correct? Or am I reading you wrong. Please specify.

Now for the latter part of the argument. You said Xian stands for Christian religion and you're saying that Xian Fundamentalism is far more dangerous than Muslim Fundamentalism. Because the christians (in this case the Americans) have the bigger weapons and a larger army. Whereas the Muslim Fundamentalist extremist (in this case the Taliban and Al Qeda) only have their guerilla tactics and machine guns. Is that right? Am I understanding you or am I complete lost in your argument.

Let's just clarify some things in this thread. Okay?

Originally posted by finti
[B]I was just pointing out the fact that you were the only one finding the xian as so bloody clever, you obvious couldnt handle that people in here thought otherwise. Hence your "attacks" on those who questioned it.

Boring, boring, boring...It feels like I am 'speaking' to a 5 year old! I don't really care what you think about the abbreviation, but it's meaning is clear. I've explained it before and I won't be doing it again. I don't mean this is a derogartory way, but perhaps you are suffering from a mild form of Autism. Ask your doctor for help...


contribute to the thread, a thread that started of with utterly BS?.

You seem pretty engrossed in this thread, but it's just a shame you have only just started to contribute to it!


Dont know how old you are, but right before and after every election in the US conservative christians rattle their chains, this time the Prez himself is a conservative christian and he has brought personal ways into the presidency and campaign. The fact is that Bush was dependent on these conservative christians to be eleceted. And taken the fact that the US is at war too really boosts the ways of these conservative christians. Now this stuff will cool down and US will be back to "normal" within the time for summer. If you have observed several elections in the US you would have seen this thing to happen every time, it heat up before the election and last to about 5-6 months after the presidential inauguration.

I'm 25. The Xian fervor is indeed always present, however it is in the time of Bush that it's affect is so wide-reaching. You correctly stated that he was dependent on the Xian vote to get elected, therefore it is a truism that the influence of the Xian right is immense. However, you seem laughably naive in yourassumption that 'this stuff will cool down and US will be back to 'normal' within the time for summer'(sic). What will have changed by that time?!?! Bush will still be president, it is unlikely US foreign policy will have changed, Iraq will still be under the greater control of the US, Muslim nations will still feel bullied by American imperialism, civil liberties will continue to be taken for granted and censorchip and control will continue to increase. The Xian right will not be neglected after their power in getting Bush elected.


well here in Europe almost every nation thinks they do it for oil, and thats what all the protests against the war has been all about too.

Oil is a prime factor. I'm not saying the US is trying to convert the world to Xianity, rather that the power of the Xian-right is overwhelming. History is filled with accounts of the cultural raping that Xian missions caused.


oh really. Which ones?? Since most European countries have not I wonder which are these so called other democratic countries you refer too.

England, France, Spain, Germany, Holland, Belgium...etc, etc, etc...On a fundamental level of influence, most European countries do not mix politics with religion. Just recently Italy's commissioner, Rocco Buttiglione, was rejected as a nominee for the EU Justice Commission based on his extreme Xian beliefs. If you have any more questions about this, ask google, not me.


No I dont think thats the case, and half of NATO is supporting the war which again is half of Europe

My statement was 'half the world is being alienated'. You've just stated that half of NATO is supporting the war, so by default the other half is alienated from it. Same goes for Europe. Same goes for the world. You studied math, right?


the majority? majority of two countries?, Iraq is poor because the despot his kins and the rest who were in charge took all the money thats why that country is poor, as for Afghanistan yeah they are poor.
Afghanistan under the Taliban regime harbored and protected terrorist cells long before they were attacked.

Do you see war as purely a physical manifestation? I don't.

Originally posted by barbarossa
What the bloody hell are you talking about? they have been a economic and militaristic super power for [B]years! not only do they have the biggest standing army in the world but they are also the only country that would be able to win a war with the United States. Look at the statistics, the U.S department of defense has admitted that the U.S pacific fleet, the "largest and most powerful" will not be able to defeat the Chinese navy in one year. beyond that, china has a standing army of over 2 million (including support personnel) and they have the largest population on the face of this planet so if they wanted, they could easily pull off the "Russian Bulldozer" tactic of just hurling thousands of men at an enemy until they are overrun. [/B]

You seem to think of power on only militaristic terms. This is fair enough if it is your own classification, but most nations judge status on economic factors, socio-economic growth, public infrastructure and sustainability. China has yet to reach the level of the US on any of those terms. Martin Vander Weyer of The Spectator notes:

Re. China:

...its present growth rate is very far from sustainable, dependent as it is on slave wage rates, corrupt bureaucracy, near total absence of environmental controls and a financial system which is at best rickety and at worst, by Western standards, insolvent.

Many observers, of greater knowledge than both you and I, argue that without political reform China will not reach 'superpower' status.

Originally posted by WindDancer
What you're basically saying (correct me if I'm wrong without sarcasm) is that the real terror comes from the USA because we (notice that includes me) are Fudamental Christians that have taken the role of Crusaders and we're invading the Eastern world because we want to convert muslims into christianity and we want to steal their treasures (oil, land, and whatever else). Is that correct? Or am I reading you wrong. Please specify.

I already explained this before. I'm not saying the US is trying to convert the world to Xianity, rather the leaders of the US are elected by Xians and use Xian rhetoric for all their actions. This promotes a culture of hostility around the world by the intrinsic arrogance of such assertions.

Now for the latter part of the argument. You said Xian stands for Christian religion and you're saying that Xian Fundamentalism is far more dangerous than Muslim Fundamentalism. Because the christians (in this case the Americans) have the bigger weapons and a larger army. Whereas the Muslim Fundamentalist extremist (in this case the Taliban and Al Qeda) only have their guerilla tactics and machine guns. Is that right? Am I understanding you or am I complete lost in your argument.

There was a farmer who had a dog and 'BINGO' was it's name.

Boring, boring, boring...It feels like I am 'speaking' to a 5 year old!
just want to contribute to a level you can comprehend. and again since you obvious cant handle the criticism to your moron new contribution of how to label christians...xians what a laugh.. Hope you didnt spend hours coming up with this lame word for christians, cause it aint nothing but lame.

England, France, Spain, Germany, Holland, Belgium
countries where there is strong ties between church and state

However, you seem laughably naive in yourassumption that 'this stuff will cool down and US will be back to 'normal' within the time for summer'(sic).
it happens every time around elections in the US, naive nah it just how it is. That you are incapable of observing this factor says all about your lack of understanding of the entire situation. Maybe if you spent more time looking into things instead of nursing your ego you might have observed this

You've just stated that half of NATO is supporting the war, so by default the other half is alienated from it Same goes for Europe
the other half of Nato chose them self to be outside this conflict only one Nato country openly criticized it, and just because some countries dont contribute to the conflict doesnt mean they are against it.

Just recently Italy's commissioner, Rocco Buttiglione, was rejected as a nominee for the EU Justice Commission based on his extreme Xian beliefs. If you have any more questions about this, ask google, not me.
extreme beliefs are a no no regardless how they are portrayed, if you dont understand that dont bring it up

Do you see war as purely a physical manifestation? I don't.
war is a physical manifesto, if not at war or openly in conflict there aint no war. Just because some have a different religious set up and an ignorant view of the world cause they dont know any better dont qualify them to be under attack, cause under attack was the argument you used. So what majority of muslims nations under attack are we talking about? Who asked something about studying math?

Your crusade toward christianity based upon loose accusation of a tunnel visioned view on stuff is actuall the boring part here, you havent come up with anything but regurgitation of BS

Originally posted by finti
[B]just want to contribute to a level you can comprehend. and again since you obvious cant handle the criticism to your moron new contribution of how to label christians...xians what a laugh.. Hope you didnt spend hours coming up with this lame word for christians, cause it aint nothing but lame.

My dear, dear finti...you seem to be oblivious to the fact that it is you who has become so anally wrapped up in a simple word, not I! When I used the term, I didn't think it would even pass comment, as it's meaning is totally clear! Any ego, on my part, in regards to the word is purely sarcastic...I really don't give a shit about whether you think it's 'lame' or not...What makes me laugh is that you seem to be showing signs of Autistic behaviour as a result of a simple abbreviation! Get some help, dude!

countries where there is strong ties between church and state

You are simply wrong. This is my opinion supported by fact. Go google it...seeing as you have no actual understanding of it.


it happens every time around elections in the US, naive nah it just how it is. That you are incapable of observing this factor says all about your lack of understanding of the entire situation. Maybe if you spent more time looking into things instead of nursing your ego you might have observed this

You are not stating anything new! This is simply a rehash of what I have already responded to.


the other half of Nato chose them self to be outside this conflict only one Nato country openly criticized it, and just because some countries dont contribute to the conflict doesnt mean they are against it.[QUOTE]

This is true to some extent, but many countries such as France and Germany were openly against it. Try to consider THE WORLD instead of simply EUROPE. Apart from Austrailia and the UK, there weren't many supporters of the US-led coallition.

[QUOTE]
extreme beliefs are a no no regardless how they are portrayed, if you dont understand that dont bring it up

IN EUROPE extreme beliefs are generally a 'no-no', but in the US they appear to be a 'yes-yes'...Look at Bush's stance on gay marriage for example. So it seems, dear finti, that yet again it is you who is wallowing in the pool of ignorance. How is it in there?


war is a physical manifesto, if not at war or openly in conflict there aint no war. Just because some have a different religious set up and an ignorant view of the world cause they dont know any better dont qualify them to be under attack, cause under attack was the argument you used. So what majority of muslims nations under attack are we talking about? Who asked something about studying math?

This ^ is all rather erratic, but 'attack' is also not a mere physical manifestation of animosity. I don't wish to be your dictionary, but it seems that I have to be...try this link for help in the future:

http://dictionary.reference.com


Your crusade toward christianity based upon loose accusation of a tunnel visioned view on stuff is actuall the boring part here, you havent come up with anything but regurgitation of BS

Then leave. Your lack of comprehension is also rather dull.

the other half of Nato chose them self to be outside this conflict only one Nato country openly criticized it, and just because some countries dont contribute to the conflict doesnt mean they are against it.

This is true to some extent, but many countries such as France and Germany were openly against it. Try to consider THE WORLD instead of simply EUROPE. Apart from Austrailia and the UK, there weren't many supporters of the US-led coallition.

^ This got mixed up in all the quotes...

I didn't think it would even pass comment, as it's meaning is totally clear!
as long as it needs to be explained it aint clear, you are the only one who think it is clear mainly because you came up with it.
.I really don't give a shit about whether you think it's 'lame' or not
good, then we got that cleared out that it is lame

You are simply wrong. This is my opinion supported by fact.
the facts are?

IN EUROPE extreme beliefs are generally a 'no-no', but in the US they appear to be a 'yes-yes'...Look at Bush's stance on gay marriage for example. So it seems, dear finti, that yet again it is you who is wallowing in the pool of ignorance. How is it in there?
i dont know, why dont you tell me since you seem to spend all your time in there

IN EUROPE extreme beliefs are generally a 'no-no'
come to scandinavia and we show you how extreme beliefs are a yes yes

Without these so called christians fundamentalist (which you laughably refer to as xian and the only one who finds its meaning obvious) the world would be in a bit of problem, so what we refer to as the free world have very much to be grateful for to these christians fundamentalists .
Today the countries that really gain from these so called chrtisitans fundamentalists and we doont pay too much attention too are Taiwan and South Korea. So without these fundamental christians to back them up they would be in big shit, then again South Korea is the only one worth protecting down there since Taiwan just as well can be reunited with China. Thats the "sacrifice" the western world have to accept to keep the peace with the next world power to be China.

This is true to some extent, but many countries such as France and Germany were openly against it
France aint a military Nato member

Apart from Austrailia and the UK, there weren't many supporters of the US-led coallition.
Spain, Italy, Poland and both the Scandinavian Nato members have contributed military and economically.

Need I remind you that words should be understood in the context they are used in? If I don't, then the 'Xian' term needs no further explanation. However, I feel I should remind you of your initial post to this discussion:

Originally posted by finti
reading your stuff it is pretty obvious that it is chrisitains you aim at.

Please note that it had nothing to do with the discussion, but rather an anal observation of 'comprehension'.

This is the only new observation you have posted:

Originally posted by finti
Without these so called christians fundamentalist (which you laughably refer to as xian and the only one who finds its meaning obvious) the world would be in a bit of problem, so what we refer to as the free world have very much to be grateful for to these christians fundamentalists.

Your view is formed from American-indoctrined ideology . Without the US, it is obvious a new 'world-police' would come into power. However, it is futile to consider such a thing as it is an impossibility. However, do you think the UN, the EU and ASEAN are solely reliant on the US!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


Today the countries that really gain from these so called chrtisitans fundamentalists and we doont pay too much attention too are Taiwan and South Korea. So without these fundamental christians to back them up they would be in big shit, then again South Korea is the only one worth protecting down there since Taiwan just as well can be reunited with China. Thats the "sacrifice" the western world have to accept to keep the peace with the next world power to be China.

I live in Taiwan, so my view is based on actual experience. Recently the US has distanced itself further and further from protecting Taiwan and has shown signs of being increasingly sympathetic with China. I trust you are aware that China is a communist state, but this is of little concern to the US as the mighty $ suffocates any of the delusions of Bush's inaugural speech on world-wide liberty.

Do you have anything else to bring to the discussion or are you going to revert to your robot-controlled tape-recorder stuck on play-rewind-play-rewind-play-rewind, ad infinitum?

This is pertinent to the discussion and appeared in The Guardian only a few days ago:

No monopoly on modernity
American dominance is bound to wither as Asia's confidence grows
Martin Jacques
Saturday February 05 2005
The Guardian

In President Bush's inauguration speech, he pledged to support "the expansion of freedom in all the world", deploying the words free or freedom no less than 25 times in 20 short minutes. The neoconservative strategy is quite explicit: to bend the world to America's will; to reshape it according to the interests of a born-again superpower. There is something more than a little chilling about
this. Even though the Iraqi occupation has gone seriously awry, the United States still does not recognise the constraints on its own power and ambition.

This was something that Europe learned the hard way: two world wars, the rise of the United States and the Soviet Union, and the anti-colonial struggle have taught our continent the limitations of its own power. That is why Europe today, with the partial exception of Britain and France, and exemplified by Germany, is so reluctant to use military force. The United States, of course, is the opposite. It measures its power not by its relative economic and technological prowess, which would suggest restraint, but its military unassailability, which implies the opposite.

Nor is this attitude simply a product of the neoconservatives. It also draws on something deeper within the American psyche. The birth of the United States and its expansion across the American continent - the frontier mentality - was an imperial enterprise, involving, most importantly, the subjugation and destruction of the Amerindians. This is lodged in the national genes, it is part of the American story, and it helps to inform and shape its global strategy and aspirations.

It is not difficult, of course, for the United States to throw its weight around in the Middle East, a poor and defeated region, one of the big-time losers from globalisation. The world's superpower versus a failed region is a hopelessly unequal contest, especially when the former can rely on the support of its regional policeman Israel, to do its bidding. But this is not the dominant story of our time, even though the Bush regime, in its desire to exploit the country's status as sole superpower, has chosen to define this conflict as the central narrative. History will judge differently. The rise of China and India will have a far more profound effect on the world than a small band of Islamist terrorists.

Indeed, there is something faintly bizarre about the psychotic worship of
American values, the incantation of its applicability to each and every country, at a historical moment when, for the first time since its emergence half a millennium ago, the modern world will, in the not too distant future, no longer be monopolised by the west. It is not difficult to imagine that, by the middle of this century, both China and India will rank among the top five largest economies in the world, with China perhaps the biggest. Nor is this just an economic story, which is how it is generally told. With economic strength comes, in due course, political, cultural and military influence: such has been the case with the emergence of all great powers.

The fact and significance of this, of course, has been hugely underestimated. The dominant view of globalisation is that it is overwhelmingly a process of westernisation: indeed, the neoliberal form of globalisation espoused by the Washington consensus has deliberately sought to define it as such. The prevalent western view is well-articulated by Chris Patten in his book East and West, where the differences between western and east Asian countries, like China, are
explained simply in terms of historical timing. The closer they get to western levels of development, the more they will come to resemble the west. Or, to put it another way, there is a singular modernity, and that is western.

Given that modernity is not simply a snapshot of the present, but a product of history, not only a function of markets and technology, but the creation of a culture, then this is utterly mistaken. One cannot make sense of American modernity - and how it diverges from European modernity - without understanding its history, in particular that it was a settler society, without any prior experience of feudalism.

If Europe and the United States differ because of their diverse pasts, even though they palpably share a great deal in terms of history, culture and race, then how much more true it will be of countries like China and India, whose civilisational roots - from religion and ethnicity to history and geo-location - are completely different to those of the west. The main historical form of intimacy with the west, in the case of India, was colonialism, which for China was only a marginal experience.

China and India, of course, will take on board a great deal from the west in their modernisation. But that can only be part of the picture. They will also draw from their own history and culture. The outcome in each case will be a complex hybrid, its character varying from country to country. In future, international discourse - the word "international" is now invariably shorthand for the west - will no longer be overwhelmingly western. As these societies grow in economic strength and cultural self-confidence, so the global political and intellectual language will change. That language, involving concepts like democracy, civil society, freedom, a free press and an independent judiciary, is
now almost exclusively western. But it will not always be the case.

So which Chinese and Indian concepts might make the transition from national to global discourse and debate? In time, one would guess many, some positive, some regressive - just as has been the case with western values. But, for two reasons, it is still very difficult to predict what they might be. Firstly, because China is ruled by a communist party, the debate about it has been overwhelmingly conducted in terms of politics rather than culture: a profoundly rich and complex culture has been reduced to the colour of its government. Secondly, the relative backwardness of these societies has hitherto deprived
them of self-confidence in the face of western hegemony. Their indigenous traditions and ideas tend to be viewed, even from within, as symptoms of backwardness and therefore as essentially parochial rather than cosmopolitan.
That will change as these societies become increasingly self-confident. As a result, the west will be forced to engage with these societies and their cultures in a very different kind of way. There will be global competition between the different claims for universality. The cultural traffic will no longer be one-way.

The pastoral concept of the Chinese state, for example, its obligation to take care of the people, that dates back to the responsibilities of the emperor, and is also related to the concept of the extended family, is likely to become an increasingly familiar idea. There is the Chinese concept of min jian, not easily translatable - either linguistically or culturally - but which might be described in shorthand as the expression of Chinese tradition, from superstition to folklore, in everyday life, which remains a potent force in all Chinese societies to this day. More obviously, the very different notions of the family
in Indian and Chinese culture are likely to become globally familiar; indeed, in a limited way, they already are.

The contrast between China and the United States could hardly be more striking. The former dates back thousands of years, the latter not much more than 200; the former is a product of an ancient civilisation, the latter an invented nation whose citizens bear allegiance to a political document, the constitution. It is little wonder that Americans constantly need to reinvent themselves: the Chinese, unsurprisingly, have no such problem, they know exactly who they are. The profound cultural differences are already being played out in a cinema nearyou: Hollywood versus the new breed of popular Chinese films. This is just a
taster for the future, the beginning of what will later come to dominate the 21st century. American - and western values - will find themselves contested like never before.