Superman vs. FF

"As far as "Tron" saying that the speed of thought is 30 m/s, that's gospel? Can't be, considering Hermann von Helmholtz concluded that neurons communicate with each other at speeds more than thrice that (and that is Dr. Helmholtz's method of calibrating the speed of thought, which has not been universally agreed upon)."

Take it up with Tron.

I'm not sure, but were you saying that FF would use Kryptonite? Or just saying how they could use similar methods, because Kryptonite is a "banned substance" in this thread.

There's no prep time.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that despite rarely or never using "speed punching", Superman should be able to do just that, seeing as he can move at super speed, and he can throw a punch.

"Furthermore...Superman fires the very same synapses that TIW fires in order to perform an action -- yet he would be able to will himself to travel at superspeed before she can will herself to put up a forcefield? Superman might TRAVEL at near light-speed (and this is incorrect; Flash does not even travel nearly that fast on earth), but he does not THINK that quickly."

I disagree. First of all with your claim that Flash cannot run at near-lightspeed. He can. He really can. I guess that doesn't mean much since I don't have specific proof, it's just something that I assumed everyone who knew his character knew about. Second, that you believe Superman's brain operates at the same speed as Sue's. Hell, I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that Superman's brain has to move at speeds very close to the speed at which he moves. I mean, if his brain was thinking at the speed of a normal human, and his body was moving Waaayy faster, wouldn't he constantly be running into things at that speed?

Originally posted by Never
As far as "Tron" saying that the speed of thought is 30 m/s, that's gospel? Can't be, considering Hermann von Helmholtz concluded that neurons communicate with each other at speeds more than thrice that (and that is Dr. Helmholtz's method of calibrating the speed of thought, which has not been universally agreed upon).

*shrug* Will just agree to disagree.

Not really gospel, just something to consider.

And like it said in the new rules, they're just experimental at the moment (if you didn't read that part), so they're not completely in stone yet.

I never understood this whole "move faster than the speed of thought" thing. That's a paradox. You can't move faster than the will to move because you have to will the movement to move, even at a subconscious "reflex" level.

From what I've read, Sue could bring up her bubbles instantly. Does this fight take place with Superman in the FF's line of site and have a start point (like someone would say "Go" and the battle begins), or is it more of a spontaneous occurence? If it's spontaneous, Supes has the advantage, If it has a start point, Sue could get her shield up IMO.

touch wont let supes near his sister.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I never understood this whole "move faster than the speed of thought" thing. That's a paradox. You can't move faster than the will to move because you have to will the movement to move, even at a subconscious "reflex" level.

From what I've read, Sue could bring up her bubbles instantly. Does this fight take place with Superman in the FF's line of site and have a start point (like someone would say "Go" and the battle begins), or is it more of a spontaneous occurence? If it's spontaneous, Supes has the advantage, If it has a start point, Sue could get her shield up IMO.

Well I get that, but my thing is that I think Superman is able to think at near lightspeed. He can move at near lightspeed, so it makes sense that his brain can process information at that speed as well, or else he would be going faster than his brain can keep up with and he would be running into things all the time. Does that make sense? I'm not saying it's a fact, just that it seems logical to me. If someone has a different theory or if you know the truth, than let me know.

That makes perfect sense Nigel (even though sometimes I move faster than my brain and I become disoriented at times, like when I get up too fast and feel light headed).

My thing is in order to get faster than instantaneous (light isn't faster than 'instantaneous'😉, you'd have to be able to move back in time. If the fight has a start point, Supes can't hit Sue before she 'instantly' shields the FF unless he attacked before she put it up, meaning before the fight started. Feel me.

Originally posted by nigel45
"As far as "Tron" saying that the speed of thought is 30 m/s, that's gospel? Can't be, considering Hermann von Helmholtz concluded that neurons communicate with each other at speeds more than thrice that (and that is Dr. Helmholtz's method of calibrating the speed of thought, which has not been universally agreed upon)."

Take it up with Tron.

I'm not sure, but were you saying that FF would use Kryptonite? Or just saying how they could use similar methods, because Kryptonite is a "banned substance" in this thread.

There's no prep time.

I think it's fairly safe to assume that despite rarely or never using "speed punching", Superman should be able to do just that, seeing as he can move at super speed, and he can throw a punch.

"Furthermore...Superman fires the very same synapses that TIW fires in order to perform an action -- yet he would be able to will himself to travel at superspeed before she can will herself to put up a forcefield? Superman might TRAVEL at near light-speed (and this is incorrect; Flash does not even travel nearly that fast on earth), but he does not THINK that quickly."

I disagree. First of all with your claim that Flash cannot run at near-lightspeed. He can. He really can. I guess that doesn't mean much since I don't have specific proof, it's just something that I assumed everyone who knew his character knew about. Second, that you believe Superman's brain operates at the same speed as Sue's. Hell, I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that Superman's brain has to move at speeds very close to the speed at which he moves. I mean, if his brain was thinking at the speed of a normal human, and his body was moving Waaayy faster, wouldn't he constantly be running into things at that speed?

No need to take up the calibration of the speed of thought with Tron; I've debated this on other messageboards and am absolutely positive that 30 m/s is inaccurate (and if I am not mistaken, he just stated that "it was something to consider"😉. You had pointed out "Well, Tron said..." Hence my asking, okay, since he said it...it is fact?

Re: Flash running at the speed of light on earth, no, he cannot -- and he cannot run (and will not run) at near light-speed on earth for fairly obvious reasons (wreaking havoc on the surrounding environment). This was stated in the recent JLA Guide that was released in...2003, I think it was; it is stated on myraid bio files on the web; Grant Morrison implied it in JLA #2 when he fought the white martian. I believe it has been stated that he will not travel at anything much faster than the speed of sound. Superman travels at around that speed also -- I have read many story arcs where you see "sonic booms" popping off (Wonder Woman does as well).

Re: Superman thinking at the speed of light, that is...yuck, don't feel like translating 30 m/s into 186,000 mph (let's just use Tron's figure for the sake of argument). But yes, of course he is capable of crunching numbers at accelerated speeds. That has been documented several times.

Allow me to build a different model. You are at a starting line beside me. I have a Volkswagen Rabbit. You have a Ferari F-50. We BOTH have to press the gas to accelerate, yet you will blow me away AFTER we both press the gas.

That is why I said that Superman will not be able to suddenly subdue The Invisible Woman before she is able to fire up a shield. And again, it is just something that he does not do.

Not really re-entering the debate. Just addressing items that I could/should have been a little clearer about.

illadelph, I am fairly certain that the speed of thought is not "instantaneous" -- Man assumed that it was for the longest time.

By the same token, you make a good point in stating that light-speed still is not faster than "instantly."

"We BOTH have to press the gas to accelerate, yet you will blow me away AFTER we both press the gas."

That's exactly my point. The thing is, all Sue has to do is "press the gas" and the shield goes up 'instantly'.

I wasn't stating that thought was instantaneous (that's a philosophy discussion in itself when you consider that all events must have a point of conception, and thought is a point of conception), I was just stating that if both Supes and Sue have to start at the same point, I don't think Supes would be able to get to Sue before the shield was raised, because once the battle begins, the shield would go up.

Basically, Sue and Supes both get off the block in the same moment, but the actions thereafter for Supes are at possible light speeds, where as Sue would only need that moment to raise the shield.

I am agreeing with you 🙂

Cool.

Now that we've got that out the way, who would win?

I don't think Sue's invisible shields are sound proof. Supes could possibly still know exactly where they are with his super hearing even after the shield is up, and he's going to pound away at it to get to them. Could Sue form a bubble inside his head from behind the shield?

I'm totally willing to agree with you guys, but I still feel as though there's one thing not being taken into account (I think). I'll use your analogy with the fast and the slow car. If the cars are representing the thought process, than there must be an ultimate "destination" (ie. actions taken once the thought has been processed). When the race starts, it is equivelant to the initial sensory response where the driver sees the flag go down. Then there is the time it takes for the messages coming from the senses to reach the brain, then for the brain to send messages to the foot to step on the gas. Relate it to the battle: If Superman is able to react faster (which I can't prove he is) than he can in a sense start his attack before Sue is able to proccess the information necessary to put up her force field. Basically, with a faster thought process, he is able to react before Sue can finish her thought process.

None of that is for certain, in fact it's pretty much bull****, but can you see where it's coming from?

illadelph, again, nothing has collapsed Sue's constructs. She is indeed able to use the "bubble in the brain" trick. I personally think that the FF will win.

nigel, hold on -- you are saying that superman should be able to choose Sue, decide to use his speed, then actually use his speed (three steps. optic nerve relaying message to the brain, brain deciding to attack/ brain sending signal to attack, superman attacking) before Sue can see Superman and simply pop a shield?

Yes, I personally think that's a stretch, but I see what you are saying. I am also not trying to change your mind, but am also trying to get you to see what I am saying by using that example to show why that I think such an approach is improbable.

Originally posted by nigel45
It's not a matter of history, it's a matter of how he could use his powers to their fullest extent. Super speed is just one of the many perks to Superman fighting all out.

Could is an uncertainty. He could have used them against Doomsday, but didn't. The comics are a fairer source material than the theoretical.

Originally posted by Never
Re: Superman thinking at the speed of light, that is...yuck, don't feel like translating 30 m/s into 186,000 mph (let's just use Tron's figure for the sake of argument).

Something like...83131.67 m/s.

Originally posted by Never
illadelph, again, nothing has collapsed Sue's constructs. She is indeed able to use the "bubble in the brain" trick. I personally think that the FF will win.

nigel, hold on -- you are saying that superman should be able to choose Sue, decide to use his speed, then actually use his speed (three steps. optic nerve relaying message to the brain, brain deciding to attack/ brain sending signal to attack, superman attacking) before Sue can see Superman and simply pop a shield?

Yes, I personally think that's a stretch, but I see what you are saying. I am also not trying to change your mind, but am also trying to get you to see what I am saying by using that example to show why that I think such an approach is improbable.

Well, I think I think it's possible that Superman could go through those three steps in less time than Sue does two. I mean, there are a ton of factors that go into it, so I don't really know, but can it really be proven that he couldn't? Lol, probably. I'm willing to accept that Superman loses if Sue gets a shield up before he can attack.

And we're also assuming that he will automatically attack Sue first?

🙂

Lol, welll...

Hmmm, aren't you ignoring Superman's heat vision?
He can fry Sue from beyond her eye-sight, since he
does have super-vision.
Come to think of it, the same applies to physically
attacking her. He can spot her from far away, swoop
down, punch her head off, all before she can even see
or hear him.
Then ofcourse, he can easily kill the other three with
three easy punches.
Soooooo easy.

Well we've kinda all agreed that Sue could put up a force field before Superman could reach her. But actually, I was going to bring up Superman's heat vision as well. He might be able to "fry" her before she gets up her construct. It's pretty similar to the physical attack in essence, but could he kill her with heat vision faster than he could kill her with a physical attack?

The Human Torch absorbs anything Superman fires at Sue and reduces it to the temperature of a cool breeze.

">>>>>The Human Torch has the ability to mentally control the ambient heat energy within his immediate environment,<<<<< even when he himself is not aflame. He can reduce objects' temperatures (if they are in a normal range for existing on Earth's surface) to about 30 F, raise them to several hundred degrees, or extinguish open flames. His radius of influence is about 80 feet. The heat energy he takes from the environment is absorbed into his own body. If he takes in a critical amount while he is not aflame, he will become aflame. There are unknown limits to the amount of flame he can absorb into his own body harmlessly while he is himself aflame."

Heh, he'll absorb whatever Superman tosses at Sue Storm and use it to fuel his own flame.

Check.

Does he automatically absorb and/or change the temperature of any heat that comes his way?

...Checkmate... just kidding. 😉