Originally posted by Never
Several fights wherein Superman took the fight seriously and "waltzed" in, as is typical:Vs. The Shaggy Man, Grant Morrison run
Vs. Batman, Dark Knight Returns
Vs. Doomsday
Vs. Prometheus
Vs. the White Martians, JLA #2
Vs. Ra's Al Ghul, Tower of Babel story arc, Mark Waid run
Vs. Gog, Kingdom Come
Vs. Brainiac, Dark Knight Strikes Back.
Vs. Hulk, Marvel vs. DC
Vs. Thor, JLA vs. Avengers
Vs. Terminus, JLA vs. Avengers.How much evidence do we have of Superman simply "going all out?" I know Superman has killed precisely...argh, 3 times is it? Doomsday, Zod, and I am forgetting one.
This is 3 times. Out of what, hundreds of battles? The writer, Dan Jurgens, even supports this.
So yes, the ODDS are that he WILL fly in (walk, whatever), fold his arms, and check them out first. He almost always does this. He's not Orion. He's not Thor. He's not Mindless Hulk.
Am Sue can keep up a forcefield long enough to knock him out. Place the bubbles/constructs in his lungs, brain, liver, wherever. And yes, althought it supports my position, even they have zero prior knowledge of one another, odds are he either settles on The Thing first (assuming he even attacks first. why are we assuming this when that is not his character?), or The Human Torch.
When has Superman ever flown off into space to avoid a battle? And I ask simply because that's so not even his character.
"Flies in and takes out The Thing, Mr. Fantastic, and The Human Torch?"
Can anyone please show me ONE battle where Superman has ever sped through three foes and defeated them via speed alone? Question then. Why is it that, when he was face to face with Prometheus -- he didn't just "speed blitz" him and knock him out? Or against any of the white martians? Or against Ra's Al Ghul? Or against Lex Luthor when he had The Philosopher's Stone (Rock of Ages story arc)? Or against Wonder Woman when she beat him? Or against Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come? Or against Captain Marvel in JLA 1,000,000? Or against Batman in Dark Knight Returns OR Dark Knight Strikes Back? Or against Doomsday?
That's like saying "well Wolverine can just automatically go berzerk and beat Spiderman" in the other thread. He doesn't do it!
Is there evidence that Superman is vulnerable to what kind of attack? He bleeds. He dies. He has been knocked out. That's plenty of evidence.
Does Sue always use her force fields to kill people? Does she always assume she's going to need it and automatically put it up? If we're suppose to assume that Superman is not going to do everything in his power to win, than we should assume the FF won't either either.
ALL this comes down to one question: Can Sue put such
a force field inside Superman, or no?
If no, then Superman wins easily.
If yes, then that still brings up whether she would do it
or not, since she doesn't do it against every single villain
that the FF face (and presumably all these villains want to
kill the FF, even if the FF don't share that sentiment).
And if she decided to use it, how can we be sure she'll
do so in time?
Bottom line for me: Both sides are told (before meeting)
that they have to fight to kill. In that case, Superman
flies in frying all with his eye beams, and if Sue survives
this initial blast with her shield, then Superman just
keeps attacking with eye-beam and punches until shield
goes down, and Sue collapses from the psyonic backlash,
and is killed.
If they are all told to just do whatever it takes to win,
with killing being an open option, then the fight will
proceed as I had out-lined in my previous post.
Also, why do so many people underestimate Superman's
strength? I happen to be one of those who believes that
he is many many times stronger than the Hulk (for God's
sakes the man lifts 20-30,000 ton ships with one hand!),
so he can kill the three FF men quickly and easily. And
probably can punch down Sue's shield with a few strong
punches (the fact that her shield survived Hulk-level
punches means nothing, because she's never faced
Superman-level physical attacks before).
Besides, the FF are way over-rated. No way such a
small limited team can survive the type of villains that
the X-Men or Avengers face, without Reed's brains that is.
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Well if Superman starts taking out members of the FF badly, surely she'll reciprocate.It's more or less obvious he will leave her alone, for a few reasons. Thing would be the obvious target, maybe Torch. He isn't going to know of Sue's capabilities in order to think of quickly removing her.
did someone say the FF cant handle x-men level villains? there is clearly an ignorance issue here. first off, throw out the idea that superman's physical strength would be of any advantage: depending on their respective universes, Both Supes and Thing are in the upper levels of physical strength...yes supes can lift up entire ships with one hand...u have just proved my point. A ship cannot be held up at a single point by pure strength alone, it would require some kind of telekenesis like that employed by Gladiator. If superman were in marvel they would account for that and either make his powers telekenetic or have the ship fall and rip apart in his hands. As far as physical strength is concerned, Hulk has lifted 150 billion tons on his own, far outclassing superman, for the ignorant superman fans who say superman's strength is beyond the Hulks. Thing has held his own against the Hulk on numerous occasions. He is always outmatched on paper, but he is stronger and tougher than anyone thinks. Thats why he has gone against the Silver Surfer, Occulus, the Destroyer, the Champion, all of these guys would hand Superman his head! and as for FF villains? the FF have fought Galactus, the Dreaming Celestial, Exitar the Celestial, Ego the Living Planet, the Obliterator, Terminus, Aron the Watcher, Abraxas,etc...notibly powerful x-men villains? Juggernaut, Magneto, Apocalypse, the Brood, etc...the only X-men villain that is anywhere near the power of FF's is Dark Phoenix.
So in summation, considering the FF fight vastly more powerful characters than Superman on a regular basis, they just beat Galactus again this month...Im pretty sure they can beat really strong guy with heat vision and a superhero complex.
Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I don't think he's saying that, but he is proving a valid point. Much of superman's "strength" isn't strength at all.
this fight might as well be sue v supes...
torch cant hurt supes... i doubt even his nova could seriously injure superman...
reed is f*cked...
the thing? come on... supes'd bitchslap him all over the place (no disrespect), but i do think thing is being given slightly too much credit... he'd last longer than torch or reed but seriously...
then it comes down to sue...
i'm not sure if she can create a bubble inside his body, if so then maybe, but i'm goin with supes on this one...