Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--not sure the magic scan really works--even against magic his confidence did not falter. my interpretation of that is that young glads was able to 'confidence' his way through that unexpected attack. if he does have weakness to it, it seems his confidence can carry him through.and billy may win this. but i think it would be really close every time.
@abhi--proof superman (and not billy) holds back in all their fights....?
I mean seriously?
In terms of feats -- no. Captain Marvel withstood a prolonged beating from DoV Spectre, which is even moreso than what Gladiator did against Galactus, withstanding it for moments then getting one-shotted.
In terms of relative portrayal -- yes. Gladiator is [currently] shown as being above the other heroes [Hulk/Surfer and more ] to the point that I don't think Captain Marvel is.
C'mon...
huh? i'm not the one who stated unequivocally that superman holds back against cm. i was curious if that was explicitly stated somewhere given the way he declared it as an apparent fact. and if it is true (and i have no doubt it is given they are both heroes....) i equally have no doubt at all that for the same reasons, cm holds back against superman in their fights making it a wash anyway. /shrug
Superman holds back and their only fight to finish (Eclipso crossover), Superman almost killed Cap.
eclipso had the advantage at the end but are you kidding--cm was holding back that whole fight. he even told him he was going to be forced to get 'rough' in the second half and called him a 'grump'! lol so if that was a non-holding back superman, (and it was) that was STILL a cm who WAS clearly holding back.
the next time eclipso took superman, cm did much better, fought smarter, caught his fist even and used lightning--but cm was still holding back against a non-holding back superman, even telling eclipso outright he wasn't going to fight him. (eclipso would have preferred cm's magic body over superman's).
i don't doubt superman holds back--but i also don't doubt cm holds back against him as well. obviously abhi you think superman beats everyone and would kill cap. and i don't really care that you think that. history, repeatedly, says you're 100% wrong though but i'm dropping this before it turns into something worse.
i also see the fear that comes with scaling that's happening here. THIS is why superman threads were closed. because there is ALWAYS some veiled threat that something can be scaled in superman's direction. if glads can beat cm, and cm can match superman, then glads (LE GASP!) might not be so easy for superman all of a sudden and every dc fan is in an uproar that gets fanned by marvel people jumping on--the result is no more superman threads.
imo, a great form of a modified no-superman rule would be that the word superman can't be used in any thread that doesn't have his name in the OP. that way discussions won't get derailed into 'how does this opinion reflect on superman!!11!' honestly, superman has been MY superhero since kindergarten and my superman encyclopedia. but the recent spat of fanboyism regarding him, the way he's sort of become this almost toxic lynch pin in the forum is....unfortunate. it reminds me of the way the forum turned so many people off of thanos (among others) who was at one time such a great villain. and obvs i'm not directing this at just abhi. 👆
lol i know, but it seems like that sentiment has been on the rise in recent months (years?)
anyway, your point about glads vs magic and asgard was a very good one. that entire arc he was dealing with magic, even punching his own god in the face at the end. given the way he handled jane i think glads can handle magic as well as most can. does that mean cm can't punch him out by amping his fists with lightning, or calling down a couple blasts of lightning? lol no, of course not. just don't think that is the way all the fights would go. each would be brutal by the end, probably and i really could see this going either way for the most part. i don't think that's a particularly volatile position to take. /shrug
Originally posted by leonidas
huh? i'm not the one who stated unequivocally that superman holds back against cm. i was curious if that was explicitly stated somewhere given the way he declared it as an apparent fact. and if it is true (and i have no doubt it is given they are both heroes....) i equally have no doubt at all that for the same reasons, cm holds back against superman in their fights making it a wash anyway. /shrug
Cap holding back against Superman is not the same as Superman holding back. Superman has mental blocks preventing him from accessing his true power. Cap has no restrictions.
eclipso had the advantage at the end but are you kidding--cm was holding back that whole fight. he even told him he was going to be forced to get 'rough' in the second half and called him a 'grump'! lol so if that was a non-holding back superman, (and it was) that was STILL a cm who WAS clearly holding back.
Advantage? Cap was stated to be lucky to be alive after the beating he received.
That was weeks after that fight too.
the next time eclipso took superman, cm did much better, fought smarter, caught his fist even and used lightning--but cm was still holding back against a non-holding back superman, even telling eclipso outright he wasn't going to fight him. (eclipso would have preferred cm's magic body over superman's).
What are you talking about? Eclipso was holding back against Cap, he even went as far as to save Billy because he wanted Cap's body without any damage.
Have you actually read the comic?
i don't doubt superman holds back--but i also don't doubt cm holds back against him as well. obviously abhi you think superman beats everyone and would kill cap. and i don't really care that you think that. history, repeatedly, says you're 100% wrong though but i'm dropping this before it turns into something worse.
Yes, Cap does hold back against Superman but its hardly the same as Superman holding back against Cap. You're once again inserting your views in the comic.
i also see the fear that comes with scaling that's happening here. THIS is why superman threads were closed. because there is ALWAYS some veiled threat that something can be scaled in superman's direction. if glads can beat cm, and cm can match superman, then glads (LE GASP!) might not be so easy for superman all of a sudden and every dc fan is in an uproar that gets fanned by marvel people jumping on--the result is no more superman threads.
What are you talking about now? Who has said any of these things?
imo, a great form of a modified no-superman rule would be that the word superman can't be used in any thread that doesn't have his name in the OP. that way discussions won't get derailed into 'how does this opinion reflect on superman!!11!' honestly, superman has been MY superhero since kindergarten and my superman encyclopedia. but the recent spat of fanboyism regarding him, the way he's sort of become this almost toxic lynch pin in the forum is....unfortunate. it reminds me of the way the forum turned so many people off of thanos (among others) who was at one time such a great villain. and obvs i'm not directing this at just abhi. 👆
Well, this esacalted fast.
huh? i'm not the one who stated unequivocally that superman holds back against cm. i was curious if that was explicitly stated somewhere given the way he declared it as an apparent fact. and if it is true (and i have no doubt it is given they are both heroes....) i equally have no doubt at all that for the same reasons, cm holds back against superman in their fights making it a wash anyway. /shrugThis question is easy to answer and it is done so in two fold, because it takes an understanding of Superman's holding back.
1). The conscious holding back. Superman has only not held back against Doomsday [DoS] prior to OWAW
https://imgur.com/a/NGYvjEi
Superman instinctively pulls his punches, even in the most extreme situations. He has done so even against omnipotent Emperor Joker:
https://i.imgur.com/F9HucG7.jpg
It's the reason Supergirl looked more powerful at first, for example:
https://i.imgur.com/6W5evTM.jpg
2). The unconscious power reserves:
https://imgur.com/a/1xGQzmj
Superman's power in its actual raw sense is literally dependent on the state of his mind. He can even depower himself, as he has done post-Infinite Crisis, as it has been made clear time and time again. Like here:
https://imgur.com/a/DORhNLX
He has to have a specific mindset in order to access his power. By altering his mindset, his power surges and he accesses more of it:
https://i.imgur.com/XHMjDYR.jpg
This same surfer of hidden power [which Loeb is playing off there] was what happened in DoS, at the end when he killed Doomsday on his deathbed:
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/RogerSternNovelisation.jpg
On top of this, he actually gets more powerful in critical situations and absorbs more solar radiation:
https://imgur.com/AHwLy5C?fbclid=IwAR29BajZpqoQl6Uy-kE5VKUZ4CLa1minMfSd0DVLJpLu8sBwDaOFE4rPwWk
So, in essence, you have 3 levels:
1). Holding back consciously [i.e. pulling his punches]. Superman does it extremely so but, obviously, Captain Marvel does it, too.
2). Subconsciously holding back. Even if he is not holding back consciously, he subconsciously is not accessing his power.
3). Amping himself by also absorbing extra sunlight in emotional duress.
---
To give you an illustration of the levels we're talking about here, here is pre-OWAW Superman stalemating Captain Marvel [who was accessing both Hercules' strength and Atlas [who is normally for stamina] while the latter is clearly trying his hardest to beat him, as Supes is like "wtf?":
https://i.imgur.com/dnpENog.jpg
Here is Superman training with Mongul to access more of his power [from the previous stalemating Captain Marvel w/Hercules+Atlas levels]:
https://i.imgur.com/XHMjDYR.jpg
Here is Superman, after that training with Mongul, double-teaming an Imperiex Probe, and they barely take it to it:
https://imgur.com/a/eoYXZx6
Here is the [conscious] all-out non-holding back Superman against that same Imperiex Probe by his lonesome:
https://imgur.com/a/B7CGolH
Here is the [conscious + unconscious] all-out Superman against an army of probes and he goes through them like butter for days:
https://imgur.com/a/V55CDhg
Levels.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Cap holding back against Superman is not the same as Superman holding back. Superman has mental blocks preventing him from accessing his true power. Cap has no restrictions.Advantage? Cap was stated to be lucky to be alive after the beating he received.
That was weeks after that fight too.
What are you talking about? Eclipso was holding back against Cap, he even went as far as to save Billy because he wanted Cap's body without any damage.
Have you actually read the comic?
Yes, Cap does hold back against Superman but its hardly the same as Superman holding back against Cap. You're once again inserting your views in the comic.
What are you talking about now? Who has said any of these things?
Well, this esacalted fast.
lol so your assertion is that superman holds back....more against cap, than cap does against him? proof that superman 'tries less'? are you kidding me with this take?
and just because eclipso didn't want to 'kill' billy doesn't mean he was holding back his strength when billy stopped his blitzing fist and matched his strength. wtf? he wanted his body for a host which he deemed better than superman's. again, the clear, non-biased implication is that they are effectively equal. in the first fight billy was clearly holding back the whole time. in the second eclipso made it clear cm's body is better for him given its magical nature. but cm still held back against eclipso, yet still caught his fist and matched his strength, and no, i don't think he was holding back either time there. seriously.
and of course this is all about superman in this cm/glads thread. like it always is. have the last word because i won't propagate this typical turn of discussion.
What context exactly? He punched a highly amped galactus.
I know yall love to literally shortchange every single thing done in Marvel every time.
But Gladiator got a good showing, how about the dc fans just ****ing deal with it for once instead of downplaying everything and trying to lowball everything.
I get that a few Marvel fans on here do the same damn thing but damn.
Gladiator punched a highly amped Galactus and got him to bleed. Then got wrecked. What other context is there?
@phil: i'm not saying superman can't access power beyond billy--i'm saying in all their battles, they are shown as equals. a typical superman=cm. this isn't owaw superman we're talking about (shouldn't be superman at all) nor am i talking about an amped superman. superman, as normally shown, is matched by billy and has been repeatedly. i am also far from sure that those blockers remain in place while eclipsed....
as far as amping himself--he's been in plenty of situations and under tons of distress and yet NOT accessed those levels of power too. you're talking about 2 states of superman that are Atypical.
