Who is the best guitarist of all time??

Started by Gideon25 pages

You're confusing two different issues entirely. The debate with this kid has nothing to do with "decent guitarists playing as well as EVH". That's for the PMs or MSN, which would save time and conclude this quicker. This issue is about a 9-year-old kid playing the SSB, Eruption, and Lights and doing them in a godly fashion for his age.

If you wanna be a critic, AC, let's see some of your credentials. I'll admit flat out I'm not a guitarist. I only go by what I see, hear, and what my friends + family who do play guitar have told me. That's why I have only argued Schon, someone I'm familiar with. You, on the other hand, seem to be an omniscient god on these topics.

Let's see your fretwork.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're confusing two different issues entirely. The debate with this kid has nothing to do with "decent guitarists playing as well as EVH". That's for the PMs or MSN, which would save time and conclude this quicker. This issue is about a 9-year-old kid playing the SSB, Eruption, and Lights and doing them in a godly fashion for his age.

If you wanna be a critic, AC, let's see some of your credentials. I'll admit flat out I'm not a guitarist. I only go by what I see, hear, and what my friends + family who do play guitar have told me. That's why I have only argued Schon, someone I'm familiar with. You, on the other hand, seem to be an omniscient god on these topics.

Let's see your fretwork.

I never said he wasn't good, I said he only played the intro and did so sloppily, which is to be expected, but I'm not sure what you're out to prove there. I specifically said there are people who can play Van Halen.

I SEEM to be? Well thank you. I've never claimed that, though, have I? I've only ever claimed what you have seen me claim. I've never claimed I'm better than these people at anything, have I? No. YOU assume that I am not familiar with Schon because I don't regard him as highly as you.

The fact that I just happen to be familiar with more, it would seem, doesn't mean I think I'm something I'm not, does it? You're the one sitting there saying "Let's see..., let's see.". When did I ever claim anything that would require any more proof than you've given? Nothing.

We're both making similar claims. Why are you allowed to make them and I'm not? What makes you think I'm not going by what I see, hear or am told by friends and family who do play guitar?

-AC

Actually, I didn't claim that you weren't familiar with Schon; I said that you weren't as familiar with him as I am, which is the truth, and something you've admitted to. You're basing your assumptions of Schon off of his work with Journey, which I've told you - time and time again - is nothing compared to his live work or solo albums. He was restrained entirely throughout the course of that band, and the only time he comes close to revealing the technical skill he exhibits live or on one of the aforementioned solo album is on 2005's "Generations".

In order to fully appreciate Schon's skill, you need to a.) buy/listen to his solo work b.) see him/clips of him live. c.) listen to other guitarists and musicians brag about how "underrated" and "skilled" he is (which you don't seem to understand) or d.) all the above.

Next, you laughed at it and said it was "sloppy", and I am to automatically infer that you also meant: "eh... well, good". No, because you didn't even imply it. The fact of the matter is that that 9-year-old kid is damn good if only for his age.

A lot of critics aren't world-class singers, guitarists, or anything. So, when they critique something (especially in a negative manner) one must question their sources. I have admitted and confessed that the only knowledge I have (which is limited) is from other people. I am, in no way, shape, or form, better, equal, or even close to any guitarist on the face of this Earth.

Saying "Neal Schon is not as good as Eddie Van Halen" is absolute horseshit, because you say so is horseshit, 'cuz apparently you're not a guitarist. If you can actually provide me with quotes from skilled guitarists who claim that Eddie Van Halen is a more technically skilled guitarist than Neal Schon (and it has to be someone good, 'cuz you don't like me bringing Hagar into this), I'll consent and leave you the hell alone about it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, I didn't claim that you weren't familiar with Schon; I said that you weren't as familiar with him as I am, which is the truth, and something you've admitted to. You're basing your assumptions of Schon off of his work with Journey, which I've told you - time and time again - is [B]nothing compared to his live work or solo albums. He was restrained entirely throughout the course of that band, and the only time he comes close to revealing the technical skill he exhibits live or on one of the aforementioned solo album is on 2005's "Generations".[/b]

Why do you ASSUME I am basing it just on Journey? Because I'm not all over him? I've heard enough of him to discuss him, don't assume I haven't. I'm not going to say the same shit here that I'm saying to you in PM regarding him being "held back" anyway.

Originally posted by Gideon
In order to fully appreciate Schon's skill, you need to a.) buy/listen to his solo work b.) see him/clips of him live. c.) listen to other guitarists and musicians brag about how "underrated" and "skilled" he is (which you don't seem to understand) or d.) all the above.

A) You assume I haven't, I have.

B) I have.

C) How ridiculous. I need to listen to other musicians brag about him to appreciate his skill? I appreciate his skill already, I respect his skill. I simply don't believe he is as good as you claim, nor as good as the people you put him next to. I base this on your outlook on guitar playing; Any decent guitarist can play anything, which is more stupid than ANYTHING I could ever say.

Originally posted by Gideon
Next, you laughed at it and said it was "sloppy", and I am to automatically infer that you also meant: "eh... well, good". No, because you didn't even imply it. The [B]fact of the matter is that that 9-year-old kid is damn good if only for his age.[/b]

You can automatically infer all you want, it doesn't change what I meant, does it? You said you got a clip of a 9 year old playing Eruption. What you got was a 9 year old playing a BIT of the intro, and doing so noticeably sloppily to any ear. Did I say he wasn't good? No.

Originally posted by Gideon
A lot of critics aren't world-class singers, guitarists, or anything. So, when they critique something (especially in a negative manner) one must question their sources. I have admitted and confessed that the only knowledge I have (which is limited) is from other people. I am, in no way, shape, or form, better, equal, or even close to any guitarist on the face of this Earth.

And I claimed the opposite where?

Originally posted by Gideon
Saying "Neal Schon is not as good as Eddie Van Halen" is absolute horseshit, because you say so is horseshit, 'cuz apparently you're not a guitarist. If you can actually provide me with quotes from skilled guitarists who claim that Eddie Van Halen is a more technically skilled guitarist than Neal Schon (and it has to be someone good, 'cuz you don't like me bringing Hagar into this), I'll consent and leave you the hell alone about it.

Honestly, it's here or PM, because I'm not going to keep saying the same thing in two places.

In reply to the above; You say Schon is as good based on what? Friends/family and Hagar? I say it based on friends, musicians who revere Van Halen too. So we're both making claims from the same place. Schon hasn't been repeatedly chased down by Satch and Vai, Van Halen has.

Schon doesn't do what Van Halen does. Van Halen does many things to make sure his style and SOUND are inimitable, hence why nobody sounds like him, or plays like him.

-AC

Why do you ASSUME I am basing it just on Journey? Because I'm not all over him? I've heard enough of him to discuss him, don't assume I haven't. I'm not going to say the same shit here that I'm saying to you in PM regarding him being "held back" anyway.

Why do you ASSUME that I think you have to be "all over him" to be familiar with Schon? We can go back and forth all night, Alpha. You make assumptions just like I do, and with the same amount of tact.

A) You assume I haven't, I have.

Check out Beyond the Thunder. Or, are you now a veritable goldmine of information on Neal Schon as well?

B) I have.

Clips of him live are good, but how good is the sound quality?

C) How ridiculous. I need to listen to other musicians brag about him to appreciate his skill? I appreciate his skill already, I respect his skill. I simply don't believe he is as good as you claim, nor as good as the people you put him next to. I base this on your outlook on guitar playing;

Right. I've mentioned Brian May (who considers Neal's solo in "Lights" to be in his personal Top 10 greatest ever) and Sammy Hagar (and I can find others, if you'd like), who consider Neal to be "one of the best", "underrated", and "as skilled as anybody". You still haven't proven that Eddie's skill is better, just that he is considered "greater", and greatness and skill are not necessarily one in the same.

Any decent guitarist can play anything, which is more stupid than ANYTHING I could ever say.

Actually, you once claimed Geddy Lee was a better singer than Steve Perry. Neal Schon being on par with EVH is much more believable than that crock.

You can automatically infer all you want, it doesn't change what I meant, does it? You said you got a clip of a 9 year old playing Eruption. What you got was a 9 year old playing a BIT of the intro, and doing so noticeably sloppily to any ear. Did I say he wasn't good? No.

So, let's knock it out of the way: yes, he was good. Actually, he was a god for his age.

And I claimed the opposite where?

Your constant BSing that Neal is inferior to EVH because of... um... oh, yeah. He's "greater". And I presented an argument that you can't exactly refute. Circumstances prevented Neal from becoming as iconic as EVH during the '70s and '80s, and I have no problem proving it.

Honestly, it's here or PM, because I'm not going to keep saying the same thing in two places.

The PM system isn't working for me. It could be MSN, where this doesn't have to be spamming the thread or constantly misinterpreted statements or assumptions, but I'm not going to force nor demand that you add me.

In reply to the above; You say Schon is as good based on what? Friends/family and Hagar? I say it based on friends, musicians who revere Van Halen too . So we're both making claims from the same place. Schon hasn't been repeatedly chased down by Satch and Vai, Van Halen has.

Right: "musicians who revere Van Halen". So, they won't be biased...? As opposed to Hagar, who has worked with both extensively. Hmm... I'd say his opinion is more credible than theirs, but that's just me.

Schon doesn't do what Van Halen does. Van Halen does many things to make sure his style and SOUND are inimitable, hence why nobody sounds like him, or plays like him.

Right. I've seen a Nashville-based act Van Halen band (Han Valen - stupid name) emulate EVH to an uncanny degree. Once again, people can imitate Van Halen. People can imitate Schon. Welcome to the real world.

Be back later (or on MSN). My sister's gotta do her taxes on his piece of shit.

Originally posted by Gideon
Why do you ASSUME that I think you have to be "all over him" to be familiar with Schon? We can go back and forth all night, Alpha. You make assumptions just like I do, and with the same amount of tact.

Check out Beyond the Thunder. Or, are you now a veritable goldmine of information on Neal Schon as well?

I've checked out A LOT more Schon since this debate began, my opinion is the same,

Originally posted by Gideon
Clips of him live are good, but how good is the sound quality?

MP3 quality.

Originally posted by Gideon
Right. I've mentioned Brian May (who considers Neal's solo in "Lights" to be in his personal Top 10 greatest ever) and Sammy Hagar (and I can find others, if you'd like), who consider Neal to be "one of the best", "underrated", and "as skilled as anybody". You still haven't proven that Eddie's skill is better, just that he is considered "greater", and greatness and skill are not necessarily one in the same.

He isn't "as skilled as anybody" though, is he? Are you saying there are no guitarists more skilled?

Originally posted by Gideon
Actually, you once claimed Geddy Lee was a better singer than Steve Perry. Neal Schon being on par with EVH is much more believable than that crock.

But not more believable than any decent guitarist being able to imitate anything famous. Not even remotely true.

Originally posted by Gideon
So, let's knock it out of the way: yes, he was good. Actually, he was a god for his age.

No musician is a god.

Originally posted by Gideon
Your constant BSing that Neal is inferior to EVH because of... um... oh, yeah. He's "greater". And I presented an argument that you can't exactly refute. Circumstances prevented Neal from becoming as iconic as EVH during the '70s and '80s, and I have no problem proving it.

You become iconic by being revered, as Van Halen did. Van Halen's skill is initially what launched the whole band. It was Eruption that got them noticed in the midst of hair metal.

Schon didn't get revered because he was "held back", whilst Van Halen wasn't even that self-indulgent, all things considered. The shows and albums weren't filled with Van Halen wankery, he was revered for his skill, innovation and uniqueness anyway. Van Halen made SURE nobody overlooked him, Schon didn't do the same, and even when he wasn't held back, it's not like guitarists of the world started pulling his name out.

Originally posted by Gideon
The PM system isn't working for me. It could be MSN, where this doesn't have to be spamming the thread or constantly misinterpreted statements or assumptions, but I'm not going to force nor demand that you add me.

Why don't you just stop misinterpreting me then?

Originally posted by Gideon
Right: "musicians who revere Van Halen". So, they won't be biased...? As opposed to Hagar, who has worked with both extensively. Hmm... I'd say his opinion is more credible than theirs, but that's just me.

Vai and Satriani, as I have said before, put EVH on their number 1 wish list. Schon had a bit part of G3, hardly even noticeable. Vai and Satch are two of the most skilled ever, yes, even more so than Schon, would you say Hagar's opinion on guitar is better than theirs? More credible?

Originally posted by Gideon
Right. I've seen a Nashville-based act Van Halen band (Han Valen - stupid name) emulate EVH to an uncanny degree. Once again, people can imitate Van Halen. People can imitate Schon. Welcome to the real world.

They can play Van Halen songs, not imitate or duplicate the man's specific style or playing. He's unique for a reason.

-AC

In terms of skill I think Satch and Vai are below Malmsteen. Batio is up there in skill as well.

I saw an amazing guitar player the other day, his band is Order of Chaos and are on MySpace, unsigned, but are starting to make a break. He's got crazy skills and writes awesome riffs... Then I saw him sweetpick the second solo in Bark at the Moon (already one of the more technically challenging solos) with the guitar behind his head. I was impressed, I have a feeling he'll make a name for himself...

I've checked out A LOT more Schon since this debate began, my opinion is the same,

If I were to compare your opinion of Schon before and after this debate (such as when we once compared Schon to Alex Lifeson, you didn't seem to have any respect for Neal at all). I will grant you that, late in the debate, you have revealed to have a high respect for someone of Schon's caliber.

MP3 quality.

That's cool. I only have the stuff from Youtube.

He isn't "as skilled as anybody" though, is he? Are you saying there are no guitarists more skilled?

I think, yes, that Neal can literally play any song by any guitarist and do a good job on it. He may not have EVH's precise "tone", but he can hit all of the notes and perform the same technical feats. These amazing guitarists (he is also a close friend of Steve Vai (as well as EVH), who deemed Schon good enough to be on his Favored Nations label when Schon released another solo album) consider Schon to be an amazing guitarist on par with themselves.

But not more believable than any decent guitarist being able to imitate anything famous. Not even remotely true.

Given time and practice, they can do what Neal can - perform the same technical feats on a song. It might not have the same tone, but they can still actually play the song. Three guys at my school, as I said, played the entire "Surfing with the Alien" album. It didn't sound identical, but they played every note just as quick and precise.

No musician is a god.

That is an exaggeration, Alpha.

You become iconic by being revered, as Van Halen did. Van Halen's skill is initially what launched the whole band. It was Eruption that got them noticed in the midst of hair metal.

When you try to compare Eddie and Neal in the context of the same circumstance, Alpha, it's ridiculous. Once again, you make it seem as if they started off in the same fashion, the same situation, and Eddie simply came out on top because he was better. For the final time, that is not the case.

Schon didn't get revered because he was "held back", whilst Van Halen wasn't even that self-indulgent, all things considered. The shows and albums weren't filled with Van Halen wankery, he was revered for his skill, innovation and uniqueness anyway. Van Halen made SURE nobody overlooked him, Schon didn't do the same, and even when he wasn't held back, it's not like guitarists of the world started pulling his name out.

Schon was held back by an incredibly talented singer who wrote 90% of the material. Eddie's singers include David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar, who look like amateurs in comparison to someone of Perry's skill. Furthermore, Eddie was the founder of Van Halen and his name was on it - thus ensuring that he was going to stay with it. It'd be like Ritchie Sambora trying to kick Jon Bon Jovi out of Bon Jovi - the shit ain't happenin'. Next, Schon's guitar solos with Journey are subdued compared to what he exhibits live, solo, and on later albums, and this is when he advances with age. EVH never had such a restraint on him. Then, after Journey, there was Bad English - which restrained him just as worse. Then, there was Hardline, during the 90s in which the hair metal scene died off. Circumstances prevented Schon from becoming a legend. And now? He is not a "household name" but he is a revered guitarist, which is amazing given the situation he was in.

Once again, Brian May of Queen, Sammy Hagar, Phil Collen and Vivian Campbell from Def Leppard have claimed that Neal is grossly underrated due to Journey/Bad English's former pop-based music tendancies. You need to accept it and move on.

Why don't you just stop misinterpreting me then?

Welcome to the Internet. Misinterpretations happen.

Schon had a bit part of G3, hardly even noticeable.

The critics who watched it would disagree with you. They praised Neal's performance.

Vai and Satch are two of the most skilled ever, yes, even more so than Schon, would you say Hagar's opinion on guitar is better than theirs?

"Satch" and Slash (EVH was in the talks, too) - at three separate points - were originally going to sign up with Planet US (which later became Soul SirkUS) because Neal asked them to. So, we have three guitarists who are "more famous" than Neal and were going to join his side band until they thought it wouldn't last due to Neal's commitments with Journey. So... really, if Neal wasn't "revered" or "respected", why would they even consider joining his band?

More credible?

Which means... what? For all you know, they want EVH because of his reputation.

They can play Van Halen songs, not imitate or duplicate the man's specific style or playing. He's unique for a reason.

Ah, right. Because they aren't EVH, they obviously can't play the same notes.

Originally posted by Gideon
I think, yes, that Neal can literally play [B]any song by any guitarist and do a good job on it.[/b]

To me, that's a ridiculous, utterly, truly ridiculous opinion. You actually propose he can play anything by any guitarist ever and do a good job? That's something I'm having a problem accepting that even YOU believe.

If he was that good, he's be the best guitarist on Earth, is he? No.

Originally posted by Gideon
He may not have EVH's precise "tone", but he can hit all of the notes and perform the same technical feats. These amazing guitarists (he is also a close friend of Steve Vai (as well as EVH), who deemed Schon good enough to be on his Favored Nations label when Schon released another solo album) consider Schon to be an amazing guitarist on par with themselves.

You don't know that he can perform the same technical feats, you're guessing. We know EVH can perform EVH parts, we don't KNOW that Schon can, but then, in light of your above opinion, I'm not entirely sure there's much more I can say, really. You believe there are no guitarists on Earth that are better than Schon, skill wise. I find that to be unbelievably ignorant.

Wait, what are you even basing that on? Friends, family and Hagar? That's not enough to consider him that high.

Originally posted by Gideon
Given time and practice, they can do what Neal can - perform the same technical feats on a song. It might not have the same tone, but they can still actually play the song. Three guys at my school, as I said, played the entire "Surfing with the Alien" album. It didn't sound identical, but they played every note just as quick and precise.

That's something I'd have to see to believe, because if anybody could do this shit, it'd not be revered or acclaimed for being skillful.

Originally posted by Gideon
When you try to compare Eddie and Neal in the context of the same circumstance, Alpha, it's ridiculous. Once again, you make it seem as if they started off in the same fashion, the same situation, and Eddie simply came out on top because he was better. For the final time, that is not the case.

Please don't speak of "ridiculous" when you're saying he's as skilled as anybody ever. I don't mean to be jarring here, because despite some of your claims, you're not the worst I've seen on these boards, but I don't think I can take your beliefs or opinions seriously anymore after that.

Originally posted by Gideon
Schon was held back by an incredibly talented singer who wrote 90% of the material. Eddie's singers include David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar, who look like amateurs in comparison to someone of Perry's skill. Furthermore, Eddie was the founder of Van Halen and his name was on it - thus ensuring that he was going to stay with it. It'd be like Ritchie Sambora trying to kick Jon Bon Jovi out of Bon Jovi - the shit ain't happenin'. Next, Schon's guitar solos with Journey are subdued compared to what he exhibits live, solo, and on later albums, and this is when he advances with age. EVH never had such a restraint on him. Then, after Journey, there was Bad English - which restrained him just as worse. Then, there was Hardline, during the 90s in which the hair metal scene died off. Circumstances prevented Schon from becoming a legend. And now? He is not a "household name" but he is a revered guitarist, which is amazing given the situation he was in.

In all fairness, let's put Perry's acclaim in perspective. Not all Journey fans were singers, they weren't all sitting there focusing on Perry's technical ability, were they? On a base level, Schon did his thing, Perry did his, people were attracted to one or the other, and it turned out to be Perry. Hagar is far from a bad singer, he has what many consider to be a wonderful voice, based not on skill, so who's to say they couldn't have focused on Hagar or Roth over EVH? Roth was flipping all over the stage, running everywhere, he didn't steal Van Halen's thunder. Eddie Van Halen is single handedly responsible for Van Halen blowing Black Sabbath off the stage when they toured together. HE was getting all the acclaim, despite doing nothing on stage but stand around.

Yes, he's revered, he's very skilled, but you're massively overrating him by saying he's the best ever, or best alive. Most skilled I mean.

Originally posted by Gideon
Once again, Brian May of Queen, Sammy Hagar, Phil Collen and Vivian Campbell from Def Leppard have claimed that Neal is grossly underrated due to Journey/Bad English's former pop-based music tendancies. You need to accept it and move on.

I have accepted it, I'm not saying he isn't underrated, but most skilled ever? Never in a million years. You are proposing, quite openly, that there is no guitarist more skilled.

Originally posted by Gideon
The critics who watched it would disagree with you. They praised Neal's performance.

It was still a bit part, they weren't mad about having him.

Originally posted by Gideon
"Satch" and Slash (EVH was in the talks, too) - at three separate points - were originally going to sign up with Planet US (which later became Soul SirkUS) because Neal asked them to. So, we have three guitarists who are "more famous" than Neal and were going to join his side band until they thought it wouldn't last due to Neal's commitments with Journey. So... really, if Neal wasn't "revered" or "respected", why would they even consider joining his band?

Who the hell is saying Schon isn't revered or respected? I'm not saying that am I? He asked them, they agreed. Great for Schon, he wanted them more then they wanted him, though, it seems.

I'm not saying he isn't respected, of course he is, I'm just saying you're overrating him. I've never, ever, ever heard ANYBODY refer to Schon as the most skilled guitarist on Earth besides you. He could never play Midnight by Joe Satriani.

Originally posted by Gideon
Which means... what? For all you know, they want EVH because of his reputation.

Precisely. What's his reputation based on? Would it be his guitar ability? Yes.

Originally posted by Gideon
Ah, right. Because they aren't EVH, they obviously can't play the same notes.

Not necessarily, but mostly, because he's an extreme talent. Slash can't play Beat It, the solo anyway.

-AC

In my opinion Jimmy Hendrix, due to pure innovation and skill. I believe had he lived longer, he'd have experimented more and made some phenomenal blues tracks.

To me, that's a ridiculous, utterly, truly ridiculous opinion. You actually propose he can play anything by any guitarist ever and do a good job? That's something I'm having a problem accepting that even YOU believe.

I believe it wholeheartedly and completely, unless I am told otherwise by a credible source (you're not that person). My friends have said that someone of Neal's caliber (or indeed of Vai's, Satriani's, EVH) would likely be able to play anything set in front of him with practice, and since he is already proven to be an outrageously talented guitarist, that it wouldn't take extreme effort to do so.

Get a credible source (which isn't you) to disprove it, and I will consent. But I have a really hard time believing that Neal (or anyone on par with him) couldn't do it.

If he was that good, he's be the best guitarist on Earth, is he? No.

I'm not claiming that he is the best on Earth. I am saying that Neal has reached a certain level of skill where he could decently play anything by any other guitarist. Hell, the kiddies from DragonForce (who have shown more speed and agility with a guitar than most - if not any guitarist) are inspired by Neal Schon's work according to allmusic.com.

You don't know that he can perform the same technical feats, you're guessing. We know EVH can perform EVH parts, we don't KNOW that Schon can, but then, in light of your above opinion, I'm not entirely sure there's much more I can say, really. You believe there are no guitarists on Earth that are better than Schon, skill wise. I find that to be unbelievably ignorant.

Alpha, let's get one thing out of the way, here. You've got less sources on your side supporting the idea of Schon's inferiority. You're not a guitarist, and - according to you - your friends whom you question "revere Van Halen" (thus, they'd be biased). Evidence-wise? You've got shit. Actually, you've got less than. You're basing this off of a dogmatic opinion that Neal Schon isn't as good as EVH, 'cuz he's not as famous and he's not EVH.

And, once more, I've never claimed that he is the best on Earth. Do you make a habit out of putting words in someone's mouth?

Wait, what are you even basing that on? Friends, family and Hagar? That's not enough to consider him that high.

It's more than you've got, clearly. Meanwhile, I have accounts of Brian May, Hagar, friends who do play the guitar, as well as the fact that Slash, Satriani, and EVH all - at one point or another - were going to join Neal's band. Certainly, if he's lesser than all of them, they wouldn't have even considered joining his band. Half of your argument went down the toilet right then and there.

That's something I'd have to see to believe, because if anybody could do this shit, it'd not be revered or acclaimed for being skillful.

Notice how I didn't say "anybody". The most I've said is that "with practice, any decently skilled guitarist" can play another guitarist's song. That requires time and effort, which sets people apart. For the final time, quit putting words in my mouth, Alpha.

Please don't speak of "ridiculous" when you're saying he's as skilled as anybody ever. I don't mean to be jarring here, because despite some of your claims, you're not the worst I've seen on these boards, but I don't think I can take your beliefs or opinions seriously anymore after that.

I hope I'm not the worst you've seen on these boards, having debunked your Perry arguments.

In all fairness, let's put Perry's acclaim in perspective. Not all Journey fans were singers, they weren't all sitting there focusing on Perry's technical ability, were they?

Well, let's compare: Journey's last album with Perry, Trial By Fire, went to #3 on the charts. They had a top 20 single and it was Grammy nominated. When he was removed from the band, the concert revenues went down considerably, and Arrival (with new singer Steve Augeri) didn't peak the Top 100. As a Journey fan, let me tell you that Perry was the icon of that band. In fact, I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 Journey Youtube videos will feature at least four comments of people begging Perry to return.

Perry was to Journey what Mercury was to Queen. Perhaps even moreso. They had a better replacement for Mercury (Good ol' Paul) than Journey did (Augeri is good, though).

On a base level, Schon did his thing, Perry did his, people were attracted to one or the other, and it turned out to be Perry. Hagar is far from a bad singer, he has what many consider to be a wonderful voice, based not on skill, so who's to say they couldn't have focused on Hagar or Roth over EVH? Roth was flipping all over the stage, running everywhere, he didn't steal Van Halen's thunder. Eddie Van Halen is single handedly responsible for Van Halen blowing Black Sabbath off the stage when they toured together. HE was getting all the acclaim, despite doing nothing on stage but stand around.

On a base level, Schon was restrained. Certainly, if you'd like to argue, feel free. But I've already got that victory in a handbasket, as everything after Perry features more kickass solos than ever before. Once again, comparing the two is ridiculous. EVH's playing was showcased in every song on every album. Schon wasn't so lucky. See 1986's "Raised on Radio".

Yes, he's revered, he's very skilled, but you're massively overrating him by saying he's the best ever, or best alive. Most skilled I mean.

I consider people like Schon, EVH, and so on to be on a level of skill that cannot be measured easily. I consider them to be on par with one another, and - with either practice or time - they could play any of each other's songs. I'm not basing this on Neal's shit with Journey, which isn't as skilled as Eddie's arsenal. I am comparing this from his entire collection of work, and if you truly have listened to it, it wouldn't sound so preposterous.

I have accepted it, I'm not saying he isn't underrated, but most skilled ever? Never in a million years. You are proposing, quite openly, that there is no guitarist more skilled.

I am not, and you should quit whining about misinterpretation, and then turn around and do it to someone else.

It was still a bit part, they weren't mad about having him.

Prove it.

Who the hell is saying Schon isn't revered or respected? I'm not saying that am I? He asked them, they agreed. Great for Schon, he wanted them more then they wanted him, though, it seems.

Actually, it was because of Schon's prior commitments to Journey, Hagar and Anthony's commitment to Van Halen (which was up for a reunion), Slash's aspirations for a solo album, and who the hell knows for Satriani? I've seen photos and reviews of them, five minutes ago, playing back in 2002 under the "Planet US" name.

Bottom line, if he wasn't even close to their level, they wouldn't have the incentive to join his band.

I'm not saying he isn't respected, of course he is, I'm just saying you're overrating him. I've never, ever, ever heard ANYBODY refer to Schon as the most skilled guitarist on Earth besides you. He could never play Midnight by Joe Satriani.

Prove that he couldn't play Midnight.

Precisely. What's his reputation based on? Would it be his guitar ability? Yes.

Automatically, then, if we were to go on reputation, Carlos Santana is more skilled than either Vai or Satriani. He's more famous. Slash is as skilled. Hell, Kirk Hammet would be a god. My advice? Stop relying so much on popularity and fame, otherwise Journey is miles and miles ahead of Vai or Satriani already.

Welcome to the real world, where the "best" aren't always recognized due to circumstances.

Not necessarily, but mostly, because he's an extreme talent. Slash can't play Beat It, the solo anyway.

Prove it.

Now that you've added me, we can handle it on MSN. I won't be responding to this particular argument on here.

I wasn't under the impression you wanted to add me to discuss this, that's not why I did so, and so I shall reply to your post.

Originally posted by Gideon
I believe it wholeheartedly and completely, unless I am told otherwise by a credible source (you're not that person). My friends have said that someone of Neal's caliber (or indeed of Vai's, Satriani's, EVH) would likely be able to play anything set in front of him with practice, and since he is already proven to be an outrageously talented guitarist, that it wouldn't take extreme effort to do so.

Get a credible source (which isn't you) to disprove it, and I will consent. But I have a really hard time believing that Neal (or anyone on par with him) couldn't do it.

I love the way you talk of credible sources and then say "My friends...". Your friends are biased for all I know. Don't sit there saying mine are and yours are not.

What "your friends" say is honestly of no concern to me. You can take your friends' words as gospel if you desire, I won't be doing that. I know guitarists of many, many years who wouldn't demean the talent it takes to be a virtuoso, by saying a decent guitarist can play anything. My sources are credible.

Someone on this thread has already told you that your claim of "Any decent guitarist..." etc is wrong, and they've been playing for a long, long time.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not claiming that he is the best on Earth. I am saying that Neal has reached a certain level of skill where he could decently play anything by any other guitarist. Hell, the kiddies from DragonForce (who have shown more speed and agility with a guitar than most - if not any guitarist) are inspired by Neal Schon's work according to allmusic.com.

Hahahaha, Dragonforce guitarists. Have you seen their Total Guitar videos? Either way, why are you saying they're inspired? So what? Many are inspired by many. I'm not denying the man's skill, so you can stop trying to prove Schon is great.

You implied he has no superiors regarding technical skill.

Originally posted by Gideon
Alpha, let's get one thing out of the way, here. You've got less sources on your side supporting the idea of Schon's inferiority. You're not a guitarist, and - according to you - your friends whom you question "revere Van Halen" (thus, they'd be biased). Evidence-wise? You've got shit. Actually, you've got less than. You're basing this off of a dogmatic opinion that Neal Schon isn't as good as EVH, 'cuz he's not as famous and he's not EVH.

Less? What do you have? Friends who are biased as far as I know, a few guitarists who say Schon is great, and Eddie Van Halen isn't short of acclaim himself is he? So what exactly do you have over me? Revere Van Halen as respect his talent, like Herman Li and Sam Totman revere Schon. Evidence wise? You've got shit.

I'm going by what I've heard and been told over the years, as are you, however. You are taking that to mean Schon has no skill superiors.

Originally posted by Gideon
And, once more, I've never claimed that he is the best on Earth. Do you make a habit out of putting words in someone's mouth?

Did you not just say he can play anything, ever, by anyone?

Originally posted by Gideon
It's more than you've got, clearly. Meanwhile, I have accounts of Brian May, Hagar, friends who do play the guitar, as well as the fact that Slash, Satriani, and EVH all - at one point or another - were going to join Neal's band. Certainly, if he's lesser than all of them, they wouldn't have even considered joining [B]his band. Half of your argument went down the toilet right then and there.[/b][/quite]

How is it more than I've got? Them joining his band doesn't mean they are bowing down to his skill, it means they respect him enough to do so, including EVH. It doesn't mean he's better than Van Halen. Van Halen invented...INVENTED new ways, no just of playing, but modelling guitars. He holds patents, he did things Schon couldn't have and DIDN'T do.

You have friends, I have friends. You have Hagar and Brian May saying he is UNDERRATED, and I have Slash not being able to play Beat It (See any live video of him performing the song with Jackson.), Satch and Vai continuing to try getting EVH on the G3 tour, not Schon, EVH.

Why do you assume they would never have joined if he was lesser? You think they all had to be as good simply because they worked together? That's not good logic.

[QUOTE=8776629]Originally posted by Gideon
Notice how I didn't say "anybody". The most I've said is that "with practice, any decently skilled guitarist" can play another guitarist's song. That requires time and effort, which sets people apart. For the final time, quit putting words in my mouth, Alpha.

Yes, and you were ridiculous to make that claim, as it's not even remotely true, and a guitarist of many years has told you so in this thread.

Originally posted by Gideon
I hope I'm not the worst you've seen on these boards, having debunked your Perry arguments.

You're not, and you didn't debunk anything, you were arguing something I wasn't specifically arguing. You can take Perry being better than Lee, and I'll take me correcting you on Perry having tenor training. If, of course, you desire to keep bringing it up.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, let's compare: Journey's last album with Perry, Trial By Fire, went to #3 on the charts. They had a top 20 single and it was Grammy nominated. When he was removed from the band, the concert revenues went down considerably, and Arrival (with new singer Steve Augeri) didn't peak the Top 100. As a Journey fan, let me tell you that Perry was the icon of that band. In fact, I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 Journey Youtube videos will feature at least four comments of people begging Perry to return.

The name and focus didn't get Van Halen his acclaim, because if you think most Van Halen fans were guitar wizards then you're wrong. He has massive acclaim for his ability, that didn't come from the fans.

Originally posted by Gideon
Perry was to Journey what Mercury was to Queen. Perhaps even moreso. They had a better replacement for Mercury (Good ol' Paul) than Journey did (Augeri is good, though).

Besides the point.

Originally posted by Gideon
On a base level, Schon was restrained. Certainly, if you'd like to argue, feel free. But I've already got that victory in a handbasket, as everything after Perry features more kickass solos than ever before. Once again, comparing the two is ridiculous. EVH's playing was showcased in every song on every album. Schon wasn't so lucky. See 1986's "Raised on Radio".

I'm not arguing that, I'm saying if he had such a problem, he could have made a bit more of a name for himself in Journey, he didn't. He did after, and still didn't get the acclaim for skill as Van Halen did, he didn't even get the acclaim he deserved, but that's my point. I don't believe he deserves the acclaim you are giving him based on friends, Hagar, and people agreeing to work with him.

Originally posted by Gideon
I consider people like Schon, EVH, and so on to be on a level of skill that cannot be measured easily. I consider them to be on par with one another, and - with either practice or time - they could play any of each other's songs. I'm not basing this on Neal's shit with Journey, which isn't as skilled as Eddie's arsenal. I am comparing this from his entire collection of work, and if you truly have listened to it, it wouldn't sound so preposterous.

See, this is what's so ignorant about you. You assume that I haven't listened just because I STILL disagree.

You consider them on par because you can't measure them, that's not fair is it? Why not just say "I don't know who's better." if you don't know? They are no equal, be it with Schon being better or EVH, so until you know, you shouldn't be saying either, because you're doing ONE of them an injustice, aren't you? For argument's sake.

Originally posted by Gideon
I am not, and you should quit whining about misinterpretation, and then turn around and do it to someone else.

If you are saying he could play to the same skill level as anybody, then you are saying there isn't anyone more skilled, because that would make him as good as ANYBODY. If that's the case, how can you also claim you're not saying that?

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove it.

Because they didn't chase him down, it's well documented how many times they've requested Van Halen.

-AC

Originally posted by Gideon
Bottom line, if he wasn't even close to their level, they wouldn't have the incentive to join his band.

First off, Slash isn't anywhere near as good as anybody we're discussing. Second, you say things about incentive via talent, yet, Eddie Van Halen played on Thriller by Michael Jackson. Yes, he's clearly picky about the guitar talents he works with.

Like you said, they're friends. I play video games with people who aren't as good as me, and people who are better.

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove that he couldn't play Midnight.

I can't, that was my informed opinion. I'd have thought you'd realised. As it stands, I don't believe he could. I don't believe he's as skilled as "anybody". Or as these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB27p-tSjY0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvXvctcMPk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGNj34GSjs4

Originally posted by Gideon
Automatically, then, if we were to go on reputation, Carlos Santana is more skilled than either Vai or Satriani. He's more famous. Slash is as skilled. Hell, Kirk Hammet would be a god. My advice? Stop relying so much on popularity and fame, otherwise Journey is miles and miles ahead of Vai or Satriani already.

Fame isn't reputation as a guitar player though. I'm talking pure guitar reputation. Nobody would say Santana is more skilled than Vai if they knew their stuff.

You suggest by "rep" I mean popularity and fame, so stop misinterpreting me. Fame means nothing, I'm talking reputation among guitarists.

Originally posted by Gideon
Welcome to the real world, where the "best" aren't always recognized due to circumstances.

Welcome to the real world, where the underrated are overrated because they're underrated or outschon, I mean shone.

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9K9RSIzjEQ
Slash version, with comments even saying "Shame about the solo.".

-AC

I watched Midnight and its nothing mind-boggling. Finger-tapping is not the hardest guitar technique to do and I'm nearly positive that someone of Schon's calibre could play it (unless he sucks at finger tapping from lack of ever doing it). Eruption being the most famous finger tapping song is a song that some of my friends refuse to learn because anybody with a high skill level can play it easily... I have a friend who could play it after three years on guitar so its nothing overly special other than it was unique at the time.

You do realise that what he's doing is entirely different to what Van Halen does, right? Obviously, without knowing what's going on, you just watched it and thought "Just tapping.", which isn't the case. He's tapping a chord progression, which is ridiculous.

As for all these people supposedly playing down Eruption, shall we stop the ridiculousness before someone comes in and says "My Grandmother played it."?

It's still a guitar track that is respected among guitarists for its skill, and regardless of all these claims that people are throwing out (Without any fear of having to prove it, by the way), it's still a hard track.

-AC

I would still say that the best guitarist ever s Jimi. As for personaly favorites, Im big on Tom Morello and Jack White.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You do realise that what he's doing is entirely different to what Van Halen does, right? Obviously, without knowing what's going on, you just watched it and thought "Just tapping.", which isn't the case. He's tapping a chord progression, which is ridiculous.

As for all these people supposedly playing down Eruption, shall we stop the ridiculousness before someone comes in and says "My Grandmother played it."?

It's still a guitar track that is respected among guitarists for its skill, and regardless of all these claims that people are throwing out (Without any fear of having to prove it, by the way), it's still a hard track.

-AC

It's not that ridiculous, tapping in any form is not amazingly difficult. I watched very closely and since I play guitar I did know exactly what was going on. Now considering that I know pretty much every underground metal band in the greater Edmonton area I can say that I have seen Eruption played many times (and well more that a few) and it's not that impressive. I've seen no name people you've never heard of sweetpick (harder than tapping in most cases) the solo from Bark To the Moon (widely considered very technically challenging) with the guitar behind his head (ie. not even looking and holding the guitar in an odd position). And guess what he did on the song before (might have been two)? A complex tapping song is probably as hard as most Eruption. Satch's is not as difficult as you are making it out to be.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=107995000
That's the band of the guy who did the Bark At the Moon feat to show that he exists. Is he better than EVH? No, not yet at least, but can he play anything EVH wrote? Likely. Is he as good as Schon? No, not yet at least, but can he play anything EVH wrote? Which is why I guarantee Schon could play any of the songs you listed.

I should add that I frickin' hate his band, but think he is the sweetest guitar player in Edmonton.

You are playing it down for the sake of your argument, though.

You having seen other people play Eruption and not finding the track impressive does not make every other guitarist ever who has lauded it, as easily impressed. It's revered for a reason, and not just because of its time. It still gets focused on in guitar mags and demos all the time.

Satch's is difficult, he explains to you why in the actual video. I don't think you're quite qualified to argue with the man about technique.

I don't know where this ridiculous idea came from that any guitarist can play anything even if they have decent skill, but that is what it is. It defies sense because these people are revered for a reason.

-AC

What the heck is sweetpicking?