Storm vs. Dr. Doom

Alright, I'm going to post something serious.

Impossible!

Even if Storm could bypass the forcefield, I doubt she could do anything.

"Oops. There goes your gauntlet again. Sorry about that. I seem to have a bad habit of disabling your weapons system"

There's obviously not enough electricity to make a bolt of lightning inside the suit. And even if she could use his power source, I don't think he's dumb enough to not insulate himself AND have the option to charge it up.

He's dumb enough not to fireproof it against the archnemesis. 🙂

Lightning going from outside to inside would get caught up in the forcefield AND the insulation.

Once it's inside the forcefield, she's make use of the entire internal atmosphere to wreak havoc internally not just with one lightning bolt, but with an entire lightning storm. One Doom couldn't escape for as long as his shields are up. Someone posted a scan 10 pages ago or so that shows that Doom struggles in things like high winds without his shield up.

The closest thing I think she could come to using lightning to mess up his electronics is if she could mess with his power source but I'm sure that's regulated, breakered, etc.

Regulated against power surges, yes. Most major electronics are. But Storm is a little bit more than a power surge - she's directing a lot of electricity directly at him. Regulation is only good within certain parameters. After that, circuit breakers kick in...but that's a bad thing for Doom, because that means stuff starts powering down to preserve the current and prevent an overload.

There's not enough space int he suit to make much of a wind, let alone a tornado to cause breathing problems. The suit's even air conditioned.

Unus' forcefield is skintight - didn't save him.

And the suit is space worthy so outside tornadoes won't mess up the breathing either.

Outside tornadoes, true. But manipulating the air current away from Doom inside the field is a different story.

And for the last time, creating a storm in a jar or bottle is impossible on just "commanding/summoning weather"

And yet...she's done it. Which means that her power isn't commanding/summoning weather. It's atmospheric control. That would also explain the star situation.

Originally posted by demigawd
Do I sincerely believe that Storm can do that? Now that I thought it up, yeah, I do. But scan this board and you'll NEVER see me use it as part of my list of Storm's arsenal, because I stand by my philosophy of only mentioning things I've seen a character do in a comic instead of assuming. I've seen Storm bypass forcefields, I've seen Storm overload Doom's tech, I've seen Storm destroy Doom's gauntlet. That's what I'm going by. So drop the whole atmosphere thing...arguing it does nothing to my belief that Storm would win.

The crucial part that you overlooked in that paraphrased convo is that Doom has (to one degree or another) used magic. That's what I'm basing it on. You are basing Storm's ability to suck air out of lungs on what? The "Air is atmosphere and you breathe in the atmosphere" theory? Ridiculous. It's a silly theory and you know it, not to mention irrelevant. You're struggling to prove a point we both know is wrong.

Air is part of the atmosphere. When you breathe it in, it separates, because air isn't one whole element. She controls the atmosphere as one, not air. She doesn't control every hydrogen and oxygen molecule in the air independantly. She controls the weather. In your following post you even went so far as to say Storm can control the stars and that weather control/commanding isn't her powers. What the hell is that? You can't change a characters powers to prove some witless theory. Sorry. She can't do it, dwell on it all you want but she can't.

Originally posted by demigawd
I know Strange wears normal clothes when using magic...because Strange is a REAL magician. Doom is not, therefore, he has to make pacts with demons, or get armor made in limbo, or has to prepare a pretty lengthy ritual to use magic. That's the difference between them, and that's why "Doom knows magic" isn't enough of an explanation.

So you are making the claim that Doom doesn't contain magical knowledge? You're denying him the possibility of combating with powers he has owned, yet you are willing to say Storm is gonna bypass his forcefield and suck the air out of his lungs? Hahaha.

Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, see, that's where you're getting confused. Atmosphere doesn't CONTAIN air. Atmosphere IS air. I've posted this before, but since it seems you forgot, I'll post it again.

Webster's definition of atmosphere:

1 a : the gaseous envelope of a celestial body (as a planet) b : the whole mass of air surrounding the earth
2 : the air of a locality

Therefore, if you control the atmosphere (Storm does), and you breathe in the atmosphere, then that same atmosphere that you breathed in is subject to the same kind of control that the atmosphere had before it entered you. There's nothing special about it entering your body vs. entering a box vs. a glass jar vs. an enclosed room. They're all cut off containers of that atmosphere - she's controlled them all in the past, the body should be no exception, scientifically speaking.

There's no difference scientifically, but that's where you get confused. You over involve science. He powers in the comic book are nowhere near that strong or concentrated. You know it, I know it, readers know it.

Originally posted by demigawd
But again, none of this has anything to do with any of my reasons for why Storm would beat Doom. I never cited this as such.

"Stop harping on it"-You.

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, he would care if a Doombot is blown up because Doombots are basically flawless represenations of them. They've represented him in countless storylines and they've had extremely weighty and important roles in securing vastly powerful objects or advancing his cause significantly. We both know that. It doesn't make sense that he'd equip them with EVERYTHING he has, all the different weapons he packs...and then give them a crap shield. It just doesn't make sense. He'd make his bots as invulnerable as possible...and if that includes an invulnerable shield, then he'd do it.

I never said he gives them crap, I said it's a safe and likely assumption that he takes better care of his protection and technology than he does of Doombots and as a result, heightens safety measures.

This is all irrelevant. Completely. This isn't Storm Vs Doombot. She overloaded a Doombot's shield. So what? You agreed with me when I said "If you catch Doom off guard once, it's just his advantage". Storm overloaded a Doombot shield. She wouldn't overload Doom's. She only beat the Doombot because it trapped her in a case and she panicked and broke out. This was around the same time she controlled stars. One shot and she's dead. The liklihood of Doom hitting that one shot is up in the 90%s.

Doom has more ways of winning and ways of winning quickly, than Storm ever does. This is all based on her being able to get past his forcefield which A) Doesn't guarantee and win anyway and B) She most likely won't even be alive long enough.

Originally posted by demigawd
I considered that possibility too, but Doom didn't always have his molecular expander gun. Once he started packing it, all of his Doombots started packing it too. So he upgrades his Doombots along with his new weapons and discoveries. No reason why that wouldn't include upgrading his shields too. Especially if he's fighting the FF all the time. You've never heard Reed say, "Hey...this Doom we're fighting is weird. Why's his tech all old? And look....that shield! What a wussy shield! This isn't Doom! Let's go home, ya'll". He takes pain to maintain consistency with his Doombots.

He came back from being away and whooped one of his highly evolved, overpowered Doombots. If they had the same tech, he would have lost.

Originally posted by demigawd
But the difference is, I'm basing my assumptions on something. I'm basing my assumption that Storm could operate from within his shield on the fact that she's done it with shields on many occasions. You're basing your assumption that Storm could NOT operate from within his shield on faith. I understand that having faith in Doom is warranted because he's DOOM, but Doom is NOT prepared for everything. Otherwise he could have fireproofed his armor and not gotten toasted by Johnny, or he could have had better circuitbreakers and not had his system lock up when Thing crushed his armor.

I'm not. Even if she could operate his shield (which she might not be able to do) it doesn't guarantee her the win. You're missing the point. The very fact that he can and has beaten the F4, put their lives in danger and conquered the world 3 times shows that losing matches to his fated nemesi is no bad thing. You're acting as though Magneto hasn't lost to the X-Men. Which is worse? Yes exactly.

Originally posted by demigawd
Look at it this way - if you had $1000 and you saw someone walk through five walls of different materials, and someone asked if you wanted to bet that they could walk through that sixth wall. it's a harder material, sure, but it's still just a wall. And this person has NEVER failed to walk through a wall. Of course, this wall has never been walked through, but no one has tried, either. Based on what you've seen, are you better off betting the $1000 or not betting it?

I don't know about you, but I'd bet the $1000 in a second...the evidence that the person could walk through any wall is overwhelming. The evidence that there's some technology in the sixth wall that prevents it...non existent.

Yeah but if you replaced those five walls with Magneto and Unus (the only two she's manipulated from the outside while fighting) and the sixth wall with Dr. Doom, I'd be alot less likely to bet the money. Doom is, contrary to popular belief, prepared for a hell of alot of things. I can't rule out that he has not prepared his true self with something like that, based on past experience of his skill and preparation. I'm not asking you to do the same.

Originally posted by demigawd
Right. Tech. He was in awe of Doom's tech. He wasn't comparing it to forcefields he's encountered, but he couldn't possibly accurately compare them. How would he know if Doom's forcefield is the best? Because it's never been broken? The Avengers run into "unbreakable" forcefields all the time. Galactus, Champion, Magneto, Thanos, Stranger, Graviton, etc.

Yeah and they break them. When Doom mailed parts of a Doombot into the Avengers mansion and it assembled itself, the Avengers couldn't do anything to it.

This isn't relevant.

Originally posted by demigawd
I suppose for the same reason he chooses to eyeblast people and miss all the time instead of snapping his fingers and molecularly melting them.

Exactly. Because you can't always go by realism and science. Comic science and real world science don't match up.

Storm just controls the weather, that is all she does. She's fairly powerful and has grown slightly in power over the years but she isn't a God. She cannot suck air from lungs nor will that ever happen in a comic involving Storm (though I wouldn't put it past some writers).

If the two genuinely fought, all it would take is one shot from Doom to win the fight. Doom can defend himself and keep her busy long enough to pull that off. Storm cannot make fog, make hurricanes and make tornadoes powerful enough or effective enough to survive.

That's my opinion and I believe history shows such.

If you choose to reply, leave the air sucking out of it. Because it's pointless and does nothing but give you and I more to reply to, needlessly.

-AC

ok, fine, I'll leave out the atmosphere thing. You're right, it's not a relevant point, though I stand by my belief she can do it because atmosphere and air are the same thing. There's absolutely no difference and the idea that anyone would try to argue that they're different is senseless. I'll also leave out the magic part of it - we'll never agree on either of these points. You say "magical knowledge" gives the user an unspecified range of control over magic, I say "magical knowledge" is too vague, so you have to go by feats and Doom has none.

There's no difference scientifically, but that's where you get confused. You over involve science. He powers in the comic book are nowhere near that strong or concentrated. You know it, I know it, readers know it.

So you throw out science because it's inconvenient to your argument? It's relevant, because it's used as the basis of comic book science all the time. Proven scientific rules are NOT ignored in comics. Unproven scientific theory IS frequently accepted as true in comics. To say that atmosphere and air being the same "in real life" isn't true in the comic world is sily.

I never said he gives them crap, I said it's a safe and likely assumption that he takes better care of his protection and technology than he does of Doombots and as a result, heightens safety measures.

But it's only a forcefield. One piece of equipment. Why would he give them all kinds of sophsicated Doomtech and then leave out the forcefield? Why would he upgrade them all to with the same new weapons he has....but not the forcefield. It's a more logical assumption that he gave them the same technology he uses than it is that he'd intentionally not give it to them. There isn't a real reason for it. People only get inferior things for budgetary reasons or laziness. Neither would apply here.

This is all irrelevant. Completely. This isn't Storm Vs Doombot. She overloaded a Doombot's shield. So what? You agreed with me when I said "If you catch Doom off guard once, it's just his advantage". Storm overloaded a Doombot shield. She wouldn't overload Doom's. She only beat the Doombot because it trapped her in a case and she panicked and broke out. This was around the same time she controlled stars.

It's not irrelevant. It shows that she's, on two occasions, defeated Doomtech. In one case, it's by defeating Doom's shield on a Doombot, and there's been no evidence presented to suggest that Doom uses a different shield and all circumstantial evidence suggests that Doombots and Doom use the same technology. In the other case, it was on Doom himself when she took out his weapons system. So in her only two encounters with Doom's technology, she's defeated it. Does it PROVE that she'd beat Doom? No. But in terms of evidence, it's more than what Doom has on her. So in the absense of a full conflicts between the two of them, this kind of evidence is the next best thing. It points in her direction.

Doom has more ways of winning and ways of winning quickly, than Storm ever does. This is all based on her being able to get past his forcefield which A) Doesn't guarantee and win anyway and B) She most likely won't even be alive long enough.

I agree that Doom has more ways of winning quickly than she does. I don't agree that Doom has more ways of winning. Doom's got his gun and an intelligent moving target. Storm's wearing the same body armor that FF uses and it's stood up against Doom's attacks just fine. Hurt, yeah. But it never killed anybody.

He came back from being away and whooped one of his highly evolved, overpowered Doombots. If they had the same tech, he would have lost.

Bless my soul, I do believe AC has presented comic book evidence of something for once. Now, this would actually be good supporting evidence of your contention...BUT, Doom won by outsmarting the Doombot, but outpowering him. They were actually tied in terms of technology. This example actually serves to prove my case more than it does yours. That's why I used that example myself a couple of posts ago. He's also mentioned in the past that he builds a dampening program in all his Doombots that activate in his presence so they become less powerful when around him.

I'm not. Even if she could operate his shield (which she might not be able to do) it doesn't guarantee her the win. You're missing the point. The very fact that he can and has beaten the F4, put their lives in danger and conquered the world 3 times shows that losing matches to his fated nemesi is no bad thing. You're acting as though Magneto hasn't lost to the X-Men. Which is worse? Yes exactly.

I'd say losing to the Fantastic Four is worse. But you're missing the point - it's not that Doom has lost...it's HOW he's lost. I'm talking straight up beat down. The X-men have never done that to Magneto - it generally takes a psychic assault to beat him or chase him away. Or they ruin his plans. Thing BEAT Doom down. Johnny roasted him. Big difference.

Yeah but if you replaced those five walls with Magneto and Unus (the only two she's manipulated from the outside while fighting) and the sixth wall with Dr. Doom, I'd be alot less likely to bet the money. Doom is, contrary to popular belief, prepared for a hell of alot of things. I can't rule out that he has not prepared his true self with something like that, based on past experience of his skill and preparation. I'm not asking you to do the same.

that comes down to faith in Doom rather than comic evidence. If you want to base it on faith, well, can't argue with that.

Yeah and they break them. When Doom mailed parts of a Doombot into the Avengers mansion and it assembled itself, the Avengers couldn't do anything to it.

This isn't relevant.

The point I was making is that the Avengers DIDN'T break them. Any of those aforementioned shields. Ever. Doom's shield is no more special than theirs...they're all seen as unbreakable because they failed to break them.

Exactly. Because you can't always go by realism and science. Comic science and real world science don't match up.

The point I was making is that Galactus is often written as an idiot. It has nothing to do with science. Galactus should be able to snap his fingers and use his matter manipulation abilities to melt the Fantastic Four, the Avengers and the X-men at the same time...no matter how hungry he is. The fact that he doesn't manipulate the inside of Doom's armor is not a credit to Doom, it's a discredit to how a cosmic god like Galactus is usually written.

Storm just controls the weather, that is all she does. She's fairly powerful and has grown slightly in power over the years but she isn't a God. She cannot suck air from lungs nor will that ever happen in a comic involving Storm (though I wouldn't put it past some writers).

And I'm sure when it does happen, you'll be up in arms and I'll just nod and say, "makes sense".

As a funny aside, Storm did actually create a thunderstorm inside someone's stomach in Ultimate X-men. You'd be up in arms about it, I find it logical.

If the two genuinely fought, all it would take is one shot from Doom to win the fight. Doom can defend himself and keep her busy long enough to pull that off. Storm cannot make fog, make hurricanes and make tornadoes powerful enough or effective enough to survive.

Assuming Doom could hit her. Storm is pretty good at not being hit. If he hits her, good for him. But there are too many ways this fight could go that it's that simple.

That's my opinion and I believe history shows such.

haha, and I guess as 40+ pages show, we have slightly different opinions that we'll never agree on. 🙂

Could Storm make the weather foggy and then change the weather to -500 degreees and then Doom would freeze to death???

Originally posted by demigawd
Impossible!

"Oops. There goes your gauntlet again. Sorry about that. I seem to have a bad habit of disabling your weapons system"

He's dumb enough not to fireproof it against the archnemesis. 🙂

Outside tornadoes, true. But manipulating the air current away from Doom inside the field is a different story.

And yet...she's done it. Which means that her power isn't commanding/summoning weather. It's atmospheric control. That would also explain the star situation.

Also, to shorten things up, Storm would get shot in the face or have her neurons scrambled like Doom did to Hulk. Or have her neurons scrambled from a shot in the face.

Originally posted by demigawd
So you throw out science because it's inconvenient to your argument? It's relevant, because it's used as the basis of comic book science all the time. Proven scientific rules are NOT ignored in comics. Unproven scientific theory IS frequently accepted as true in comics. To say that atmosphere and air being the same "in real life" isn't true in the comic world is sily.

Who said that? You love misquoting, or misunderstanding. It's one of the two.

I said they aren't the same. Either way, it's not relevant since we're not dwelling on that.

Originally posted by demigawd
But it's only a forcefield. One piece of equipment. Why would he give them all kinds of sophsicated Doomtech and then leave out the forcefield? Why would he upgrade them all to with the same new weapons he has....but not the forcefield. It's a more logical assumption that he gave them the same technology he uses than it is that he'd intentionally not give it to them. There isn't a real reason for it. People only get inferior things for budgetary reasons or laziness. Neither would apply here.

I'm not saying he didn't do it with lesser technology than capable, read my posts.

I said he more than likely ups the efforts when he makes and modifies his own suits. Come on, it's not hard to understand me.

Originally posted by demigawd
It's not irrelevant. It shows that she's, on two occasions, defeated Doomtech. In one case, it's by defeating Doom's shield on a Doombot, and there's been no evidence presented to suggest that Doom uses a different shield and all circumstantial evidence suggests that Doombots and Doom use the same technology. In the other case, it was on Doom himself when she took out his weapons system. So in her only two encounters with Doom's technology, she's defeated it. Does it PROVE that she'd beat Doom? No. But in terms of evidence, it's more than what Doom has on her. So in the absense of a full conflicts between the two of them, this kind of evidence is the next best thing. It points in her direction.

A Doombot's shield, you mean. Not all evidence suggest they use the same tech. Doombot shield couldn't stand up to Storm, Doom's shield stood up to Galactus. Why are you not picking up what I'm putting down?

Doom has had a handful of real appearances, she fought a Doombot, it was revealed in later issues.

Originally posted by demigawd
I agree that Doom has more ways of winning quickly than she does. I don't agree that Doom has more ways of winning. Doom's got his gun and an intelligent moving target. Storm's wearing the same body armor that FF uses and it's stood up against Doom's attacks just fine. Hurt, yeah. But it never killed anybody.

He can kill Storm quickly is he so chooses, he has the ability to do so. You have admitted such. Storm's wearing the same body armour? What the hell? They all have the same tailor now?

Originally posted by demigawd
Bless my soul, I do believe AC has presented comic book evidence of something for once. Now, this would actually be good supporting evidence of your contention...BUT, Doom won by outsmarting the Doombot, but outpowering him. They were actually tied in terms of technology. This example actually serves to prove my case more than it does yours. That's why I used that example myself a couple of posts ago. He's also mentioned in the past that he builds a dampening program in all his Doombots that activate in his presence so they become less powerful when around him.

The dampener didn't work because it grew an independent A.I of itself. Hence why he had to step in and take it out.

Despite the fact that Doom was wearing an updated, upgraded armour that he used to beat the Doombots, their tech was the same? Whatever you say...he quite clearly had advances. If he thought to build a dampener, he obviously has failsafes. You are trying to pin Doom down to having equal tech of his creations, that's not the case IMO.

Originally posted by demigawd
I'd say losing to the Fantastic Four is worse. But you're missing the point - it's not that Doom has lost...it's HOW he's lost. I'm talking straight up beat down. The X-men have never done that to Magneto - it generally takes a psychic assault to beat him or chase him away. Or they ruin his plans. Thing BEAT Doom down. Johnny roasted him. Big difference.

Yeah but for that beat down and that roasting, Doom has still done enough to strike fear into the hearts of the Marvel Universe and the Fantastic Four. Reed Richards shit himself when he had to go it alone against Doom. Doom losing to the people he is theoretically supposed to lose to, isn't bad. The fact is, in this debate he's fighting Storm, not the Fantastic Four. I still think it's a ridiculous mismatch.

Originally posted by demigawd
that comes down to faith in Doom rather than comic evidence. If you want to base it on faith, well, can't argue with that.

Someone once said "All we can do is assume" in most cases. I'm simply doing that.

Originally posted by demigawd
The point I was making is that the Avengers DIDN'T break them. Any of those aforementioned shields. Ever. Doom's shield is no more special than theirs...they're all seen as unbreakable because they failed to break them.

You're on the right track, but swerving a bit. Unbreakable as far as a majority of the Marvel Universe is concerned, is what Doom's shield is. It's been acknowledged. So while it may not be TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY unbreakable/impenetrable, it will remain so until someone displays such power to do so. Storm lacks that power IMO and obviously in the M.U's opinion. I'm sure they know who Storm is.

Originally posted by demigawd
The point I was making is that Galactus is often written as an idiot. It has nothing to do with science. Galactus should be able to snap his fingers and use his matter manipulation abilities to melt the Fantastic Four, the Avengers and the X-men at the same time...no matter how hungry he is. The fact that he doesn't manipulate the inside of Doom's armor is not a credit to Doom, it's a discredit to how a cosmic god like Galactus is usually written.

None of them can kill Galactus therefore Galactus doesn't need to bother. That's why.

Originally posted by demigawd
And I'm sure when it does happen, you'll be up in arms and I'll just nod and say, "makes sense".

As a funny aside, Storm did actually create a thunderstorm inside someone's stomach in Ultimate X-men. You'd be up in arms about it, I find it logical.

You find alot of illogical things logical though. I don't deny that it probably will happen one day. Look at Ice-Man. I'm waiting for the day that Kitty Pryde can beat Thanos, because X-Men writers have this mentality of "Pfft. Can't be bothered explaining why they deserve to be good, or building them up. So let's just do it".

They've ****ed the X-Men up so much over the years and STILL got best sellers that they know they can put ANYTHING out there and have it accepted. It's not like I read X-Men and still *****. I stopped as soon as they all got too far up their own backsides. They were created to be a very good team at best. A communal team. The powers that be obviously had a problem with that.

Originally posted by demigawd
Assuming Doom could hit her. Storm is pretty good at not being hit. If he hits her, good for him. But there are too many ways this fight could go that it's that simple.

I believe it is, I don't believe she has a chance in hell of beating Dr. Doom.

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd

The strength of a forcefield is meaningless.

Yeah good point. 😉 Might as well just use a paper bag.

Originally posted by demigawd

2+2=5 isn't an opinion.

Yes, it is.

Originally posted by demigawd

It's a statement of fact that's incorrect.

Paradox.

Saying, "I think capitalism is better than socialism" is an opinion. [/B][/QUOTE]

It sure is, now you're catching on.

Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

I BELIEVE that 2+2=5. I am CONFIDENT it's correct, but I have NO PROOF or POSITIVE KNOWLEDGE of it being so.

For a bonus point, do you know what that makes it?

2+2=5 is not an opinion. You can prove it. U cant prove opinions.

Read what he just said.

-AC

Originally posted by Tormentor_2004
2+2=5 is not an opinion. You can prove it. U cant prove opinions.

Why are people lazily assuming opinion means 'not fact'?

It describes a state of belief, fact or no.

In my opinion, I could do 'x'.

At this point, it is both capable of being tested, and exists as a fact one way or the other, in the abstract. This doesn't preclude its being opinion.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Why are people lazily assuming opinion means 'not fact'?

It describes a state of belief, fact or no.

In my opinion, I could do 'x'.

At this point, it is both capable of being tested, and exists as a fact one way or the other, in the abstract. This doesn't preclude its being opinion.

Yeah...

Additionally, while we are delving into semantics and philosophy,

'Good' is in many cases provable;

'Truth' has been variously depicted as subjective.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying he didn't do it with lesser technology than capable, read my posts.

I said he more than likely ups the efforts when he makes and modifies his own suits. Come on, it's not hard to understand me.

I understood what you said. What I'm saying in response is that if he creates an "unbreakable forcefield" while screwing around in the lab one day, there's no reason why he wouldn't then turn around and incorporate it into his Doombots. I mean, sure, you up the effort for yourself, but once you've created lots of cool stuff for yourself, you backtrack and retrofit it to make your creations more formidable. Not that difficult.

A Doombot's shield, you mean. Not all evidence suggest they use the same tech. Doombot shield couldn't stand up to Storm, Doom's shield stood up to Galactus. Why are you not picking up what I'm putting down?

We addressed this before. Galactus hit Doom with concussive force from the power cosmic. Storm overloaded Doom's shield with electrical energy. The electrical energy interacted with the shield differently than G's concussive force. If G decided to bombard Doom with electrical power instead of cosmic concussive force, the results would have been much different.

He can kill Storm quickly is he so chooses, he has the ability to do so. You have admitted such. Storm's wearing the same body armour? What the hell? They all have the same tailor now?

lol, nah, the FF make some of their money by outsourcing their costume designs to other superhero teams. They designed the unstable molecule armor. I think most uniformed superhero teams use them.

I didn't admit that Doom could kill Storm quickly. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said if Doom is to have a chance to beat Storm at all, it would have to be in the beginning of the match, before Storm could get going. If he's unable to do that, the match shifts to Storm's favor. I then said that Storm isn't likely to go down quickly, either. Especially with her body armor, which is proven effective against shots from Doom.

The dampener didn't work because it grew an independent A.I of itself. Hence why he had to step in and take it out.

There was no indication that he defeated the dampener. That Doombot grew an independent AI because it heard Doom doubt himself. Doombot's programming is such that it believes Doom to be perfect. When it heard Doom admit imperfection, it corrupted its programming and made it go rogue. But it never said that it deleted the dampener.

Despite the fact that Doom was wearing an updated, upgraded armour that he used to beat the Doombots, their tech was the same? Whatever you say...he quite clearly had advances. If he thought to build a dampener, he obviously has failsafes. You are trying to pin Doom down to having equal tech of his creations, that's not the case IMO.

Clarify. At what did he update and upgrade his armour in that storyline? Because I have no recollection of him updating and upgrading it prior to the fight.

And yes, Doom has failsafes. Why does he have failsafes? Because if he's going to outfit his Doombots with all his tech, they're tied in power, so if that's the case, he'd NEED failsafes so that he could always take one down if he needed to. If they had lower grade technology, he wouldn't have to put in failsafes. That's his insurance that he can give them technology as sophisicated as his own.

Yeah but for that beat down and that roasting, Doom has still done enough to strike fear into the hearts of the Marvel Universe and the Fantastic Four. Reed Richards shit himself when he had to go it alone against Doom. Doom losing to the people he is theoretically supposed to lose to, isn't bad. The fact is, in this debate he's fighting Storm, not the Fantastic Four. I still think it's a ridiculous mismatch.

Doom is supposed to lose to Thing? He's supposed to lose to Torch? He fought Reed one on one to a draw when they fought through time? Must not be that powerful, then...

The problem with Doom is that he's arrogant. He's not on his A game when he's fighting people he underestimates. Hear all these opinions on the board with reasons like, "He's DOOM; she's JUST Storm". Thing of what Doom himself would think. If there's ever a time when he'd fight someone the way he fought Thing (just barging in, trying to beat him up), it would be against "just" Storm.

Someone once said "All we can do is assume" in most cases. I'm simply doing that.

I assume based on specific references. You're assuming based on Doom's place in some perceived Marvel pecking order.

You're on the right track, but swerving a bit. Unbreakable as far as a majority of the Marvel Universe is concerned, is what Doom's shield is. It's been acknowledged. So while it may not be TOTALLY and ABSOLUTELY unbreakable/impenetrable, it will remain so until someone displays such power to do so. Storm lacks that power IMO and obviously in the M.U's opinion. I'm sure they know who Storm is.

You ignored my point. My point is there are a lot of shields that have never been broken. Given that there are at least half a dozen shields by various characters that haven't been cracked, Doom can at best hope for a tie...there's nothing to show that it's THE best. Storm has bypassed two of those shields that have never been shown to crack. Remember, Storm isn't breaking the shield...she's ignoring it.

None of them can kill Galactus therefore Galactus doesn't need to bother. That's why.

ok, so you've answered your own question. Why doesn't G kill Doom from the inside of his shield? Doesn't need to bother.

You find alot of illogical things logical though. I don't deny that it probably will happen one day. Look at Ice-Man. I'm waiting for the day that Kitty Pryde can beat Thanos, because X-Men writers have this mentality of "Pfft. Can't be bothered explaining why they deserve to be good, or building them up. So let's just do it".

Well, if I find it logical, then I, by definition, have to disagree with you finding it illogical. I suppose then I could accuse you of finding a lot of logical things illogical. Eh.

They've ****ed the X-Men up so much over the years and STILL got best sellers that they know they can put ANYTHING out there and have it accepted. It's not like I read X-Men and still *****. I stopped as soon as they all got too far up their own backsides. They were created to be a very good team at best. A communal team. The powers that be obviously had a problem with that.

You accuse them of being so overpowered now, but you still think they'd lose to the Fantastic Four.

I don't believe she has a chance in hell of beating Dr. Doom.

40+ pages of debating and we're full circle. 🙂

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Well, I'd say not fireproofing your suit against an archnemesis ranks a bit lower than protecting yourself from mortal harm from your own defenses.

Right, but what I'm saying is, installing circuit breakers and all that are meant to guard against internal suit power problems, not deliberate high level electric attacks.

But for the electricity to get internal, it'd have to cross his forcefield. I'm saying even if she could direct lightning into his suit, his forcefield would block it before it gets there. This is all assuming the forcefield is up.

Hm. I mentioned a couple of possible options. If his forcefield is up, she could overwhelm it like she did against the Doombot's shield (same designer, same tech). Or she could ignore it altogether. The forcefield would absorb the electricity, but my guess is the electrical nature of the attack would interact badly with the forcefield, perhaps conducting the electricity directly back to its generator, causing it to malfunction. Given what Storm did to the forcefield before, it seems to show that the forcefield is actually a conductor of electricity.

[quote]
I'm not sure what time of nuclear power Doom uses. But here it says through fission just one atom of uranium creates 200 million volts of electricity. And here it says a bolt of lightning can be anywhere to 100 million to 1 billion volts. I'm fairly sure he's running on more than an atom of uranium.

You have to remember, it's not the voltage that gets you. It's the amps. A human can survive millions of volts if the amps are low. Compare a lightning bolt (lethal) to a taser (not lethal). The taser actually has a MUCH higher voltage than a lightning bolt, but fewer amps...so it's not lethal.

How on Earth do you make any kind of wind effect in a space with no air? You mean drawing the air away from his spaceworthy suit? It'd be like pulling air around a manequin. Forcefield or not.
It would mean her powers are teleportation or creation of matter. There's not enough water in a jar to create a storm. Not an airtight jar. There's a set amount of moisture in an airtight container.

I'm not sure I understand. Storm wouldn't actually be able to affect a forcefield if it were a vacuum inside. There's be no atmosphere to affect. But unless you know otherwise, Doom's forcefield going up doesn't somehow remove air. So she'd have the same effect on it.

But you're right about one thing, at some point, she'd use up the air inside his forcefield. But then he wouldn't be able to breathe. His suit becomes spaceworthy because of the forcefield. It would have to, because he lives in his armor indefinitely, so he's getting a constant supply of real air.

Also, to shorten things up, Storm would get shot in the face or have her neurons scrambled like Doom did to Hulk. Or have her neurons scrambled from a shot in the face.

If he can nail her.

No Demi, we're not full circle. You just post essays and then complain when you "have" to reply. I know where you stand, you know where I stand. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree, it's clearly not going to change, neither are we. Yet you continue, because it obviously makes you feel like you're a good debater.

Originally posted by demigawd
I understood what you said. What I'm saying in response is that if he creates an "unbreakable forcefield" while screwing around in the lab one day, there's no reason why he wouldn't then turn around and incorporate it into his Doombots. I mean, sure, you up the effort for yourself, but once you've created lots of cool stuff for yourself, you backtrack and retrofit it to make your creations more formidable. Not that difficult.

Yeah, exactly. You backtrack. Does backtracking therefore render Doom inable to "forward" track and keep stuff for himself? No. You know as well as I do not to put something like that past someone of Doom's calibre, you're just not either A) Seeing how good he truly is and labelling him overrated or B) Denying for sake of debate.

Originally posted by demigawd
We addressed this before. Galactus hit Doom with concussive force from the power cosmic. Storm overloaded Doom's shield with electrical energy. The electrical energy interacted with the shield differently than G's concussive force. If G decided to bombard Doom with electrical power instead of cosmic concussive force, the results would have been much different.

Why do you keep slyly saying Doom's shield? It was a Doombot.

No more no less.

Originally posted by demigawd
lol, nah, the FF make some of their money by outsourcing their costume designs to other superhero teams. They designed the unstable molecule armor. I think most uniformed superhero teams use them.

Anyone read the comic called Beano? Some great characters in there.

Originally posted by demigawd
I didn't admit that Doom could kill Storm quickly. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said if Doom is to have a chance to beat Storm at all, it would have to be in the beginning of the match, before Storm could get going. If he's unable to do that, the match shifts to Storm's favor. I then said that Storm isn't likely to go down quickly, either. Especially with her body armor, which is proven effective against shots from Doom.

You are denying that you said if Doom hits her she's dead? You're denying that flat out?

It doesn't shift to Storm's favour, it just prolongs the "battle". Doom's only shot isn't at the beginning, that's just if he want's to kill her off quick. He can still kill her if he so chose, at any point during the fight.

Yeah "Body Armour". The name of that comic character in the Beano comics will return to me in a sec....

Originally posted by demigawd
There was no indication that he defeated the dampener. That Doombot grew an independent AI because it heard Doom doubt himself. Doombot's programming is such that it believes Doom to be perfect. When it heard Doom admit imperfection, it corrupted its programming and made it go rogue. But it never said that it deleted the dampener.

Yeah, and what did Doom do about that? Turned up and said "Yeah but look, but tech is better than yours. Have some whooping." Didn't he? Yes he did. He turned up with an armour capable of being that which his most powerful Doombot was running riot with. 2+3-1=?

Originally posted by demigawd
Clarify. At what did he update and upgrade his armour in that storyline? Because I have no recollection of him updating and upgrading it prior to the fight.

He overcome a Doombot with will of it's own. He overcome his own tech with better tech. He didn't show up in his normal threads, he showed up in a new armour.

Originally posted by demigawd
And yes, Doom has failsafes. Why does he have failsafes? Because if he's going to outfit his Doombots with all his tech, they're tied in power, so if that's the case, he'd NEED failsafes so that he could always take one down if he needed to. If they had lower grade technology, he wouldn't have to put in failsafes. That's his insurance that he can give them technology as sophisicated as his own.

Such a silly viewpoint. If you create a robot with capacity to learn even though it's already modelled intellectually on the smartest man there is on Earth, you would be stupid to assume "Nah they're cool". Him having failsafes doesn't insinuate "Oh they're my equal". Whether they were or not, I doubt he wants rogue Doombots, so should he need to destroy them if things get hectic.

As so common in an X-Men debate, you've completely avoided Storm's ability to win the fight and shifted yet again to Doom's tech. Why? Because you're harping onto the point that you so desperately want to prove. "Storm could overload Doom's shield". When even if she could, it doesn't mean much, at all.

Originally posted by demigawd
Doom is supposed to lose to Thing? He's supposed to lose to Torch? He fought Reed one on one to a draw when they fought through time? Must not be that powerful, then...

This has to do with what? We both (or apparantly not) know that he's not a weakling, extremely far from it. He lost to the best superhero team on the planet who fight omnipotent cosmics on a daily basis. Your point is what? He's beat them too. This has nothing to do with anything. Storm Vs Doom, not Doom Vs The F4. OH WAIT!

THAT'S the character's name....Desperate Dan.

Originally posted by demigawd
The problem with Doom is that he's arrogant. He's not on his A game when he's fighting people he underestimates. Hear all these opinions on the board with reasons like, "He's DOOM; she's JUST Storm". Thing of what Doom himself would think. If there's ever a time when he'd fight someone the way he fought Thing (just barging in, trying to beat him up), it would be against "just" Storm.

The problem with Storm is she doesn't have a will to kill and she's too moral. She owes Doom her life so if we're going by demeanour she isn't gonna do anything.

Originally posted by demigawd
I assume based on specific references. You're assuming based on Doom's place in some perceived Marvel pecking order.

You ignored my point. My point is there are a lot of shields that have never been broken. Given that there are at least half a dozen shields by various characters that haven't been cracked, Doom can at best hope for a tie...there's nothing to show that it's THE best. Storm has bypassed two of those shields that have never been shown to crack. Remember, Storm isn't breaking the shield...she's ignoring it.

Still harping on about that. Given that those other shields weren't devised and created by the greatest Earthborn genius in Marvel, I'd say that gives Doom a bit of an advantage.

Originally posted by demigawd
You accuse them of being so overpowered now, but you still think they'd lose to the Fantastic Four.

Off Topic:

Because they would. Fantastic Four haven't had to go through all the members, story arcs, writers, power changes, deaths, rebirths, multi-comic series' that the X-Men have and their still the shit. Why? Because they're the better team.

Individually they're not THAT great besides Sue. However, together, they get the job done against people that the X-Men could never beat.

Like Vic said before, F4 are the MU's Sun. X-Men are the Moon. If the X-Men left the MU forever, sales would drop but there would be no shortage of credible and interesting stories to read. If F4 was gone and the multi X-Men series remained, it'd be crap.

The X-Men are Marvel's reserves. No amount of cheap advancement will ever convince me otherwise. I'm high den rike, I don't value thread-al life.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Yeah good point. 😉 Might as well just use a paper bag.

Good try, with the taking my quote out of context and all. 😉

Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

I BELIEVE that 2+2=5. I am CONFIDENT it's correct, but I have NO PROOF or POSITIVE KNOWLEDGE of it being so.

2+2 isn't something subject to belief - it's something subject to proving or disproving. It's a statement of fact that is subsequently shown not to be factual at all...hence disproven.

Opinion: Allen Iverson is short. That's a subjective assessment. What is short? Short compared to whom?

Fact: Allen Iverson is shorter the average NBA player. That's something that can be objectively shown.

Fact: Allen Iverson is taller than Shaq. It's a statement of fact, but it's one easily proven incorrect by objective means. Paradox? Whatever.

Opinion: Doom can beat Storm.

For a bonus point, do you know what that makes it?

A bad example.

Originally posted by demigawd
Good try, with the taking my quote out of context and all. 😉

2+2 isn't something subject to belief - it's something subject to proving or disproving. It's a statement of fact that is subsequently shown not to be factual at all...hence disproven.

Opinion: Allen Iverson is short. That's a subjective assessment. What is short? Short compared to whom?

Fact: Allen Iverson is shorter the average NBA player. That's something that can be objectively shown.

Fact: Allen Iverson is taller than Shaq. It's a statement of fact, but it's one easily proven incorrect by objective means. Paradox? Whatever.

Opinion: Doom can beat Storm.

A bad example.

You're wrong. As explained above, shan't reiterate same point.

You can believe in spite of proof. All nice like.

Desperate Dan is from The Dandy.

Swear it was Beano. Oh well.

-AC