Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No Demi, we're not full circle. You just post essays and then complain when you "have" to reply. I know where you stand, you know where I stand. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree, it's clearly not going to change, neither are we. Yet you continue, because it obviously makes you feel like you're a good debater.
Oh please...you're just as guilty of it as I am. Otherwise, you would have stopped writing back too.
Yeah, exactly. You backtrack. Does backtracking therefore render Doom inable to "forward" track and keep stuff for himself? No. You know as well as I do not to put something like that past someone of Doom's calibre, you're just not either A) Seeing how good he truly is and labelling him overrated or B) Denying for sake of debate.
I don't understand this point at all. I said that if Doom invents awesome technology for himself, he'd go back and give it to his Doombots to keep up with them. They wouldn't be very good foolproof clones if they're sporting outdated techology. What this point has to do with the drivel you posted above is beyond me.
Why do you keep slyly saying Doom's shield? It was a Doombot.
Using the same shield and tech Doom uses. She overloaded DOOM'S tech. Twice!
You are denying that you said if Doom hits her she's dead? You're denying that flat out?
Switching points yet again, I see. I never denied that, what's your point? I said if he hits her she's dead. Of course, it would have to be a head shot, since her armor protects her. But I never said otherwise. You're making it sound like I backtrack, when that topic wasn't even addressed in that last post. What was addressed was "beginning of the fight" vs. "after the first moments when Storm gets going". What are YOU talking about?
It doesn't shift to Storm's favour, it just prolongs the "battle". Doom's only shot isn't at the beginning, that's just if he want's to kill her off quick. He can still kill her if he so chose, at any point during the fight.
No, because by then, he'll have cloudy vision, trouble breathing, and shields being overloaded.
He overcome a Doombot with will of it's own. He overcome his own tech with better tech. He didn't show up in his normal threads, he showed up in a new armour.
And all this took place after his Galactus-shot taking feats and Thanos-shot taking feats. So if his shield was impenetrable before he made his anti-Doombot armor, and the Doombot has the same armor Doom had (which is why he had to make new armor in the first place), and Storm overloaded the Doombot armor, then Storm is able to overload the same forcefield that took shots from those big baddies.
Think about it - assuming your example is correct, why would he had to have created new armor unless he knew that the Doombots armor is identical to the one he had before? He gives Doombots all his tech, so he created new armor to compensate. So he compensated. That means Storm overloaded the same tech Doom himself uses.
Such a silly viewpoint. If you create a robot with capacity to learn even though it's already modelled intellectually on the smartest man there is on Earth, you would be stupid to assume "Nah they're cool". Him having failsafes doesn't insinuate "Oh they're my equal". Whether they were or not, I doubt he wants rogue Doombots, so should he need to destroy them if things get hectic.
You're making my same point. He put in failsafes because he knows a rogue Doombot is a threat to him because they have his tech. If they were so vastly inferior to him, he wouldn't need to put in power dampeners to make them LESS powerful in his presence.
As so common in an X-Men debate, you've completely avoided Storm's ability to win the fight and shifted yet again to Doom's tech. Why? Because you're harping onto the point that you so desperately want to prove. "Storm could overload Doom's shield". When even if she could, it doesn't mean much, at all.
It means everything. Without his shield, one lightning strike disables his gauntlet. Another one disables his molecular expander gun. No more weapons. Another one. His armor is disabled. He becomes useless. Oh yeah, and she wins the fight.
It's not harping on one point, either. Everybody's point here is, "Doom can't be hurt by Storm, he has a forcefield". My counterpoint is, "Storm has and can bypass forcefields. Storm has and can overload Doom's tech". You persist in arguing against that, I'm not the one harping on that point.
This has to do with what? We both (or apparantly not) know that he's not a weakling, extremely far from it. He lost to the best superhero team on the planet who fight omnipotent cosmics on a daily basis. Your point is what? He's beat them too. This has nothing to do with anything. Storm Vs Doom, not Doom Vs The F4. OH WAIT!
Best superhero team on the planet??? hahahahahahahahaha. Yeah, ok.
The problem with Storm is she doesn't have a will to kill and she's too moral. She owes Doom her life so if we're going by demeanour she isn't gonna do anything.
Well, neither will he, so it's a wash.
Still harping on about that. Given that those other shields weren't devised and created by the greatest Earthborn genius in Marvel, I'd say that gives Doom a bit of an advantage.
Who cares if he's some super-genius? There's no evidence that his forcefield is any stronger than any other forcefield shown never to be broken. Maybe he's so smart that he was able to build a forcefield AS powerful as a cosmic one, or Magneto's forcefield, or Unus' forcefield. Saying that he's really, really smart doesn't make any difference about the strength of his forcefield.
Off Topic:Because they would. Fantastic Four haven't had to go through all the members, story arcs, writers, power changes, deaths, rebirths, multi-comic series' that the X-Men have and their still the shit. Why? Because they're the better team.
Individually they're not THAT great besides Sue. However, together, they get the job done against people that the X-Men could never beat.
Like Vic said before, F4 are the MU's Sun. X-Men are the Moon. If the X-Men left the MU forever, sales would drop but there would be no shortage of credible and interesting stories to read. If F4 was gone and the multi X-Men series remained, it'd be crap.
The X-Men are Marvel's reserves. No amount of cheap advancement will ever convince me otherwise. I'm high den rike, I don't value thread-al life.
See, I see it the complete opposite way (big surprise). I don't find FF stories to be better than X-men stories, and I don't find the team to be better or more powerful than the X-men. Having read them both for a number of years, I find the FF to be resourceful and intelligent...but not powerful. I've never seen any enemy the FF has faced that I've ever thought to myself, "Man, the X-men could never take that guy". Never. The X-men represent far more of what goes on in the real world - it makes for superior stories. Giving the X-men power ups aren't really necessary, but they have them...and they vastly overshadow the FF in power because of it.
I see it just comes down to where we place these teams on our personal hierarchy. I see the X-men as being second to the Avengers in power (among active teams). You evidently see the FF as being at the very top in terms of power. I suppose it's just a matter of....opinion.
Right, but what I'm saying is, installing circuit breakers and all that are meant to guard against internal suit power problems, not deliberate high level electric attacks
I work with an electrician, no matter how strong the current, if his suit is grounded his breaker will flip and nothing will come of it.
Originally posted by demigawd
I don't understand this point at all. I said that if Doom invents awesome technology for himself, he'd go back and give it to his Doombots to keep up with them. They wouldn't be very good foolproof clones if they're sporting outdated techology. What this point has to do with the drivel you posted above is beyond me.
Yeah and I don't agree with that completely. It's as though you are saying his armour is completely the same as his Doombots and I find that ridiculous. For reasons stated.
Originally posted by demigawd
Using the same shield and tech Doom uses. She overloaded DOOM'S tech. Twice!
She overloaded a Doombot's shield, yeah. It's your assumption that it's the same as Doom uses, I disagree.
Originally posted by demigawd
Switching points yet again, I see. I never denied that, what's your point? I said if he hits her she's dead. Of course, it would have to be a head shot, since her armor protects her. But I never said otherwise. You're making it sound like I backtrack, when that topic wasn't even addressed in that last post. What was addressed was "beginning of the fight" vs. "after the first moments when Storm gets going". What are YOU talking about?
No not at all. I was just trying to clarify that you admitted Doom could kill her it one shot, which you did, because he could. She doesn't wear armour, you are basing this on what? The fact that you believe the F4 make everyone's suits? Haha.
Originally posted by demigawd
No, because by then, he'll have cloudy vision, trouble breathing, and shields being overloaded.
Fog is nothing, you can avoid it by walking out of it. Trouble breathing? That's down to your little lightning storm in the suit theory and we all know what I think about shields being overloaded. I don't believe they use the same tech nor do I believe that EVEN IF she got his shield down, that it'd matter.
Originally posted by demigawd
And all this took place after his Galactus-shot taking feats and Thanos-shot taking feats. So if his shield was impenetrable before he made his anti-Doombot armor, and the Doombot has the same armor Doom had (which is why he had to make new armor in the first place), and Storm overloaded the Doombot armor, then Storm is able to overload the same forcefield that took shots from those big baddies.
That's far too roundabout of an analogy. Just because person A beat person C and person B can't beat person C, doesn't mean person A can beat person B. Same applies here. If Thanos couldn't even FLOOR Doom for a while with his shield down, with a blast from the infinity gauntlet, then I don't believe anything STORM can conjure up will do anything special. At all.
Originally posted by demigawd
Think about it - assuming your example is correct, why would he had to have created new armor unless he knew that the Doombots armor is identical to the one he had before? He gives Doombots all his tech, so he created new armor to compensate. So he compensated. That means Storm overloaded the same tech Doom himself uses.
No, it doesn't mean that. That situation involved ALOT of overpowered rogue Doombots and a few other people. He destroyed his castle trying to stop them. You are proving my point. Doom makes his Doombots awesome, with existing technology. The very fact that the impossible happened and he was already ready proves that he keeps much more advanced tech for himself. It in NO way implies that the armour he uses is the same as the Doombots. It may indeed have alot of the same features but IMO he cares more about packing his one with more protection than that of the Doombots. If you can factually prove me wrong, go for it.
Originally posted by demigawd
You're making my same point. He put in failsafes because he knows a rogue Doombot is a threat to him because they have his tech. If they were so vastly inferior to him, he wouldn't need to put in power dampeners to make them LESS powerful in his presence.
He put the dampeners in so that they obey him. Regardless of the fact that he is more powerful than them, I'm sure he doesn't want rogue Doombots causing damage or havoc, so naturally he has things to stop that happening. It doesn't mean he is equal to them. He has an infinite line of Doombots but I still doubt that he wants to destroy them by his own hand. So he keeps them under control. They're not threats, just troublesome.
Originally posted by demigawd
It means everything. Without his shield, one lightning strike disables his gauntlet. Another one disables his molecular expander gun. No more weapons. Another one. His armor is disabled. He becomes useless. Oh yeah, and she wins the fight.
Hahaha. Talk about being presumptuous. If I say "One shot and she's dead" you say "If she gets hit. She can dodge". Yet for some reason every lightning bolt she throws at him is a direct critical hit. Rather hypocritical. The infinity gauntlet couldn't stop his suit, Storm isn't going to be able to shut down his whole suit. Doom knows more about his suit than Storm does and he knows enough about Storm's powers to know what she can do. He's going to be ready for her, there's nothing drastic she can do to pull the win out.
Originally posted by demigawd
It's not harping on one point, either. Everybody's point here is, "Doom can't be hurt by Storm, he has a forcefield". My counterpoint is, "Storm has and can bypass forcefields. Storm has and can overload Doom's tech". You persist in arguing against that, I'm not the one harping on that point.
She disrupted the Doombots gauntlet once. That's it. As I said above, forcefield or not, Storm isn't gonna be doing anything to win the fight just by jolting his suit. Which is all she could do. His forcefield isn't useless, she might not even know he has it up and attack him with no effect. How can she bypass what she doesn't know is there?
Originally posted by demigawd
Well, neither will he, so it's a wash.
Doom can, has and would kill. Storm wouldn't.
Originally posted by demigawd
Who cares if he's some super-genius? There's no evidence that his forcefield is any stronger than any other forcefield shown never to be broken. Maybe he's so smart that he was able to build a forcefield AS powerful as a cosmic one, or Magneto's forcefield, or Unus' forcefield. Saying that he's really, really smart doesn't make any difference about the strength of his forcefield.
If you asked Spider-Man to make one, he probably could. Doom's would be better. Do you know why?
And no, I don't view the F4 as top in terms of powerful teams. Keyword though: Team. Which is why they're the best. But this is irrelevant.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yeah and I don't agree with that completely. It's as though you are saying his armour is completely the same as his Doombots and I find that ridiculous. For reasons stated.
But the fact remains that there's been nothing to show or suggest that Doom uses better tech than his Doombots. In the example you stated, Doom whipped up a new, special armor. The fact that he had to do that to that means that the armor he'd been using all that time was the same as the one he gave to the Doombots. If his armor was better the whole time...why would he need to build new armor just to fight a DOOMBOT?
She overloaded a Doombot's shield, yeah. It's your assumption that it's the same as Doom uses, I disagree.
In both cases, ultimately, it's speculative because Doom has never said, "We use the same armor!" and he's never said, "We use different armor!". But the evidence leans in favor of him using the same tech - your own example shows that much.
No not at all. I was just trying to clarify that you admitted Doom could kill her it one shot, which you did, because he could. She doesn't wear armour, you are basing this on what? The fact that you believe the F4 make everyone's suits? Haha.
Don't laugh - they said it themselves. Reed said that part of how the FF fund their operations is through patents. He said that they patented unstable molecules for use in body armor, but they only license it to bona fide superhero teams because the military can't be trusted. The X-men have said themselves that their suits are made of unstable molecules - the same ones the FF use. That's why Charlotte Jones wears an X-men suit under her police uniform - she herself said that it's better than the best bulletproof vest.
So with the suit on, Storm already has enhanced durability over most of her vitals. Doom would have to get a head shot in.
Fog is nothing, you can avoid it by walking out of it. Trouble breathing? That's down to your little lightning storm in the suit theory and we all know what I think about shields being overloaded. I don't believe they use the same tech nor do I believe that EVEN IF she got his shield down, that it'd matter.
I'm going to stop addressing the whole shield issue, since I think we've completely exausted our points. I think you understand the logic behind those explanations, but don't accept it. All my facts can do is help you understand the logic, but you already do, so accepting it or not is a matter of choice. You choose not to, all the facts in the world won't change that.
Fog, however, follows you. Storm would cover the entire battlefield with it. Doom wouldn't just "walk" out of it.
That's far too roundabout of an analogy. Just because person A beat person C and person B can't beat person C, doesn't mean person A can beat person B. Same applies here. If Thanos couldn't even FLOOR Doom for a while with his shield down, with a blast from the infinity gauntlet, then I don't believe anything STORM can conjure up will do anything special. At all.
That's far too roundabout of an analogy. Just because person A couldn't beat person B and person A could beat person C doesn't mean that person C couldn't beat person B. Same applies here. If Thanos couldn't even FLOOR Doom for awhile with his shield down, with a blast from the infinity gauntlet, then that doesn't at all mean that Storm, using a completely different power TYPE, couldn't interact with his armor in a completely different way using her specific TYPE of power - electricity.
I bet Thanos didn't disable Doom's gauntlet with his cosmic blast either, did he? Storm did...
No, it doesn't mean that. That situation involved ALOT of overpowered rogue Doombots and a few other people. He destroyed his castle trying to stop them. You are proving my point. Doom makes his Doombots awesome, with existing technology. The very fact that the impossible happened and he was already ready proves that he keeps much more advanced tech for himself. It in NO way implies that the armour he uses is the same as the Doombots. It may indeed have alot of the same features but IMO he cares more about packing his one with more protection than that of the Doombots. If you can factually prove me wrong, go for it.
As I said before, Doom doesn't compare his armor to his Doombot's armour one way or another. But the fact that Doom had to get out of his armor and pull out a new one means that their existing armor is the same - he pulled out the new one for the edge. If his existing armor was already superior to the rogue Doombots, he wouldn't have needed to pull out some new armor.
He put the dampeners in so that they obey him. Regardless of the fact that he is more powerful than them, I'm sure he doesn't want rogue Doombots causing damage or havoc, so naturally he has things to stop that happening. It doesn't mean he is equal to them. He has an infinite line of Doombots but I still doubt that he wants to destroy them by his own hand. So he keeps them under control. They're not threats, just troublesome.
But here's the thing - the dampeners don't deactivate them so that he doesn't have to fight them, the dampeners DECREASE their power levels. They're still capable of fighting and destroying things, but they become less potent when in the prescence of Doom. It has nothing to do with their ability to obey him.
Hahaha. Talk about being presumptuous. If I say "One shot and she's dead" you say "If she gets hit. She can dodge". Yet for some reason every lightning bolt she throws at him is a direct critical hit.
Guns and gauntlet blasts need to be aimed. Lighting doesn't. It's line of sight. If she were shooting from her hands, then she could miss. But she can conjure lightning too.
Rather hypocritical. The infinity gauntlet couldn't stop his suit, Storm isn't going to be able to shut down his whole suit. Doom knows more about his suit than Storm does and he knows enough about Storm's powers to know what she can do.
Apparently Storm knows enough about his suit to know how to disable his (the real Doom's) weapons system. And more than that if she so chose, I'll wager.
She disrupted the Doombots gauntlet once. That's it. As I said above, forcefield or not, Storm isn't gonna be doing anything to win the fight just by jolting his suit. Which is all she could do. His forcefield isn't useless, she might not even know he has it up and attack him with no effect. How can she bypass what she doesn't know is there?
Forcefields are alternately drawn as being visible and invisible depending on the artist. I've seen both in past depictions of Doom. Ditto with Magneto. But Unus' forcefield is always invisible...didn't save him.
Doom can, has and would kill. Storm wouldn't.
Storm hasn't killed before? C'mon, you know that's not true.
If you asked Spider-Man to make one, he probably could. Doom's would be better. Do you know why?
Oh! oh! I know! Because Doom is smarter and a better technician than Spider-Man!
But we're not doing a tech comparison - we're doing a forcefield comparison. And we're comparing a tech forcefield to forcefields that are the result of natural powers. There's no basis for comparison, aside from Doom's artificial forcefield vs. God's naturally endowed forcefields. And that doesn't look too good for Doom.
Doom can fire magical blasts, go read the sorcerer supreme comic. Doom fights without using his suits weapon systems at all.
Sure guy.
Originally posted by demigawd
But the fact remains that there's been nothing to show or suggest that Doom uses better tech than his Doombots. In the example you stated, Doom whipped up a new, special armor. The fact that he had to do that to that means that the armor he'd been using all that time was the same as the one he gave to the Doombots. If his armor was better the whole time...why would he need to build new armor just to fight a DOOMBOT?
No it doesn't mean that. You are assuming it means that. There has been nothing to show that Doom USES the same tech as his Doombots also. You are making claim that the fact he used a new armour means that he wasn't good enough before, which is crap. Iron-Man repeatedly returns to his normal armour. He has better ones, but he doesn't use them all the time because that's not what Iron-Man is. Doom is the same in that respect. It all comes down to whether you honestly believe Doom would give his creations the EXACT same tech as himself. I don't believe he would. Maybe close, but not exact, because it doesn't make sense. It would be foolish, something Doom isn't.
Originally posted by demigawd
In both cases, ultimately, it's speculative because Doom has never said, "We use the same armor!" and he's never said, "We use different armor!". But the evidence leans in favor of him using the same tech - your own example shows that much.
It doesn't, as proven. Speculative based upon how you view Doom's demeanour. Don't get me wrong I can see why you think what you do, I just don't agree.
Originally posted by demigawd
Don't laugh - they said it themselves. Reed said that part of how the FF fund their operations is through patents. He said that they patented unstable molecules for use in body armor, but they only license it to bona fide superhero teams because the military can't be trusted. The X-men have said themselves that their suits are made of unstable molecules - the same ones the FF use. That's why Charlotte Jones wears an X-men suit under her police uniform - she herself said that it's better than the best bulletproof vest.So with the suit on, Storm already has enhanced durability over most of her vitals. Doom would have to get a head shot in.
Hahaha how desperate. Body armour, not superhero outfits. The X-Men can't withstand bullets, therefore you are talking nonsense. Their suits don't render them immune to gunfire. Much less blasters. Also, Storm doesn't wear a mask, she has no protection for getting shot in the face. Such a ridiculous thing to bring up. Only an X-Men debate could get into clothing. If Doom shoots her in the chest, no suit is protecting her.
Originally posted by demigawd
Fog, however, follows you. Storm would cover the entire battlefield with it. Doom wouldn't just "walk" out of it.
They're not fighting in a ring. They're fighting in the street. Doom can fly, Storm can fly. He can fly out of it, he's not gonna stand there.
Originally posted by demigawd
That's far too roundabout of an analogy. Just because person A couldn't beat person B and person A could beat person C doesn't mean that person C couldn't beat person B. Same applies here. If Thanos couldn't even FLOOR Doom for awhile with his shield down, with a blast from the infinity gauntlet, then that doesn't at all mean that Storm, using a completely different power TYPE, couldn't interact with his armor in a completely different way using her specific TYPE of power - electricity.I bet Thanos didn't disable Doom's gauntlet with his cosmic blast either, did he? Storm did...
She disabled the Doombot's gauntlet. You mistyped the analogy. While Storm uses a different power, it's irrelevant because the Infinity Gauntlet has more power than Storm could ever muster. So different power or not, it's not going to achieve any super results. Storm can't control where the lightning goes. She might hit him and if she did, it's charge his armour. She can't say "Right, fry those circuits".
Originally posted by demigawd
As I said before, Doom doesn't compare his armor to his Doombot's armour one way or another. But the fact that Doom had to get out of his armor and pull out a new one means that their existing armor is the same - he pulled out the new one for the edge. If his existing armor was already superior to the rogue Doombots, he wouldn't have needed to pull out some new armor.
He didn't, he returned from being away and found chaos. He proceeded to whoop it into control. He didn't prepare it for the Doombot, he happened to return with it.
Originally posted by demigawd
But here's the thing - the dampeners don't deactivate them so that he doesn't have to fight them, the dampeners DECREASE their power levels. They're still capable of fighting and destroying things, but they become less potent when in the prescence of Doom. It has nothing to do with their ability to obey him.
That's ego though. Constant reminder of how Doom created them. You are operating under the assumption that he made the armour especially to fight the Doombot, which isn't the case and I thought you knew that.
Originally posted by demigawd
Guns and gauntlet blasts need to be aimed. Lighting doesn't. It's line of sight. If she were shooting from her hands, then she could miss. But she can conjure lightning too.
Yeah, and so can mother nature. Doom lives in Eastern Europe and lightning has never troubled him before. Even so, once it hits, she loses no control over it. Doom doesn't lose control of his suit. He has ways of shutting down the electricity within his suit, harnessing the overcharges he uses also. If anything it's more likely that he can just use it. This all assuming he has his shield down, which I doubt he will.
Originally posted by demigawd
Apparently Storm knows enough about his suit to know how to disable his (the real Doom's) weapons system. And more than that if she so chose, I'll wager.
She disabled a Doombot gauntlet for a bit. She didn't conjure ruination upon his entire suit, because she couldn't do that, I'll wager.
Originally posted by demigawd
Forcefields are alternately drawn as being visible and invisible depending on the artist. I've seen both in past depictions of Doom. Ditto with Magneto. But Unus' forcefield is always invisible...didn't save him.
So? Unus' isn't Doom's.
Originally posted by demigawd
Storm hasn't killed before? C'mon, you know that's not true.
She doesn't have a killer instinct, she won't kill without thinking and she certainly won't kill Doom.
Originally posted by demigawd
Oh! oh! I know! Because Doom is smarter and a better technician than Spider-Man!But we're not doing a tech comparison - we're doing a forcefield comparison. And we're comparing a tech forcefield to forcefields that are the result of natural powers. There's no basis for comparison, aside from Doom's artificial forcefield vs. God's naturally endowed forcefields. And that doesn't look too good for Doom.
Exactly. You asked why Doom's superior mind will have any baring on the shield. Because he knows what works and what doesn't. Spider-Man could make a good one but it would pale in comparison to Doom's. Storm hasn't fought anyone as smart, versatile or unpredictable as Doom.
-AC