Look, it's been said and proven that Anakin is the only one who can kill Sidious and bring the Force into balance. Thus, Obi-Wan may be able to survive against Sidious but he WOULD NOT be able to kill him. Anakin is the only one Sidious would fall against and (allow me to channel Ush for a moment) anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong.
Anakin picked up the Emperor and tossed him down a shaft, and you think that makes him powerful? How hard is it to pick someone up, carry them a few feet, and drop them? He had the physical strength to pick him up yes, and the willpower to withstand the Force lightning, but that is no measure of how strong someone is.
I agree that Obi-Wan beats Grievous with a blaster out of luck. No one should be able to defeat a character that is skilled with a lightsaber, Force-sensitive or no, with a blaster unless they are incredibly skilled ( Jango in Ep2) or the lightsaber wielder in question is against overwhelming odds (Geonosis arena).
BTW, Grievous, IMHO, is not Force-sensitive but he kicks ass with a lightsaber anyway.
Just figured I'd cover all the bases here, I had a lot to say.
Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
but you're right, if anakin would have never fallen into lava, he would eat sidious
Yup, Its funny how life can work....Isn't it....? 🙂
To be fair though.... It looked like as I said, the suit enabled Anakin to be able to take the lightning A LOT better than any other un-suited individual had throughout the entire saga..... The suit is just another element along with Luke and the rebel attack blindsiding Palps long enough for Anakin to blindside him and chuck him down the shaft...
Without any of these elements, I don't think Anakin'd be able to do it or have the motivation to forfill the prophecy in the sudden way that he did...
Why didn't he use his sabre to deflect/absorb the Emporer's lightning in Ep6...? Again he would have gotten his ass handed back to him by Palps lightsabre on lightsabre..... Palps rules all with the sabre....
Anakin wasn't meant to fall to the dark side of the Force at all, his destiny was to kill the Sith. How he got there could have happened in any number of ways. He could have stayed of the light path for all we know had the circumstances been different. Had he stayed on the light path and not been seduced by the dark side there would have been no suit and he would've been much stronger and he would have pwned Sidious.
AT ALL? He WAS meant to turn as he DID turn to the darkside, maybe it was not the Jedi's plan or expectation, but it certainly was the way of the force.
(To be light then dark then into balance.)
A large part of his redemption was Luke. Luke would never have been born without Padme. His relationship with/and not being able to keep Padme was in part what turned him to the darkside... His circumstance of his whole life pointed to him turning to the darkside....
And looking at the "If he had stayed on the lightside" argument even further, since the lightside (Even the most powerful of it's practitioners)
lacked the ability to get Sidious out of there, Anakin would have had to have the immediately more powerful Darkside anyway to stand a chance....
Remember, it was only in that flash of Darksideyness that Luke was able to beat Vader in combat finally...?
And if he wasn't so close to Sidious, and in that exact position in ROTJ, he may not have been able to kill the sith...Bringing balance.
One of the great points about the resolution of ROTJ was that even though Anakin had to go through what he went through, everything was ok in the end.....But had to go through it, he did.......
Anakin would have been able to kill the Sith because that was his destiny, light side or not. The Prophecy tells us this. This is fact.
How do you figure Anakin was meant to turn to the dark side? Everything was circumstancial.
-Had Qui-Gon not died Anakin would have had a better teacher than Obi-Wan.
-Had Shmi not died, Anakin wouldn't have slaughtered the Sand People in rage.
-Had Padme stayed on the ship like Qui-Gon told her to, Anakin wouldn't have met her and been tempted to break the Jedi Code.
Everything could have gone the other way around, it wasn't the will of the Force it was circumstance.
"There is no such thing as luck" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
He's right. Anakins turn to the darkside was circumstantial - but that means that it's mere chance. In the Star Wars Universe, nothing happens by chance. Anakin is a victim of circumstance, which it itself is due to the will of the force. I mean, it was a Jedi after all that used the force, saw potential in Anakin and trained him. Thats the will of the force, not some circumstance. Of course it's the will of the force that Anakin turns - how can it not be?
And to answer the question - Obi-Wan could probably fend off Sidious.
But without Obi-Wan, Luke would never leave Tatooine, and would therefore never face Vader to fulfil the prophecy - so, in other words, Obi-Wan was "protected" by the prophecy in a way. If he died, the prophecy would not come true. Obi-Wan vs Sidious would never happen even if Obi-Wan and Sidious tried.
In a no holds barred, typical fight to the death, Sidious would win. But like I said, it would never happen, so why even bother?
Originally posted by ArthasKnight
Anakin would have been able to kill the Sith because that was his destiny, light side or not. The Prophecy tells us this. This is fact.How do you figure Anakin was meant to turn to the dark side? Everything was circumstancial.
-Had Qui-Gon not died Anakin would have had a better teacher than Obi-Wan.
-Had Shmi not died, Anakin wouldn't have slaughtered the Sand People in rage.
-Had Padme stayed on the ship like Qui-Gon told her to, Anakin wouldn't have met her and been tempted to break the Jedi Code.
Everything could have gone the other way around, it wasn't the will of the Force it was circumstance.
1) Show me a quote from the movies where it states about light OR dark....It merely prophecised the Chosen one bringing balance.
So to assert that the prophecy states that he could forfill it by going either way as fact is simply wrong.
2)Circumstances are the building blocks of life.
(Also see answer 6)
3)Better teacher or not, due to his slave childhood and lack of control/power back then, he'd STILL have grown ambitious and weaked by temptation of power would probably have given YODA a headache.
4)Shmi inevitably WOULD have died.... Anakin WOULD have to face this eventually and his frustration at his inability to hold on to things STILL would mess him up.... Even later on..... The slaughtering of the sandpeople was symptomatic of this inability of his....
5)True. But then Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born, Luke wouldn't have triggered Vader's defeat of the Emporer. (Or destroyed the first Death star either)
6) "The force controls our actions, but partially obeys our commands."
"The force will guide us."
"It is the will of the force"
Basically everything happened and was able to happen in accordance with the prophecy, BECAUSE it happened... No other way.
Prophecies never regard the might-have-beens. Only what WILL be.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) Show me a quote from the movies where it states about light OR dark....It merely prophecised the Chosen one bringing balance.
So to assert that the prophecy states that he could forfill it by going either way as fact is simply wrong.2)Circumstances are the building blocks of life.
(Also see answer 6)3)Better teacher or not, due to his slave childhood and lack of control/power back then, he'd STILL have grown ambitious and weaked by temptation of power would probably have given YODA a headache.
4)Shmi inevitably WOULD have died.... Anakin WOULD have to face this eventually and his frustration at his inability to hold on to things STILL would mess him up.... Even later on..... The slaughtering of the sandpeople was symptomatic of this inability of his....
5)True. But then Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born, Luke wouldn't have triggered Vader's defeat of the Emporer. (Or destroyed the first Death star either)
6) "The force controls our actions, but partially obeys our commands."
"The force will guide us."
"It is the will of the force"Basically everything happened and was able to happen in accordance with the prophecy, BECAUSE it happened... No other way.
Prophecies never regard the might-have-beens. Only what WILL be.
1.) There is nothing that says Anakin must fall to the dark side, nor is there anything saying that he has to stay on the light path. He only has to fulfill the Prophecy. It doesn't matter how he does it, he just has to do it. I agree with you, but I don't see how I'm wrong.
2.) See 6.
3.) Of course the teacher matters. You can be taught control and I believe Qui-Gon would have done a better job at teaching Anakin merely because he did not stick to the rigidity that the Council demanded in its training methods. Obi-Wan represented this rigidity and it is a flaw which Qui-Gon could have corrected.
4.) Yes Shmi would have died, but had it been under different circumstances (i.e. a later time and not captured by Sand People) then Anakin would have learned more control by then and there would be nothing to slaughter in rage, plus he probably would have had his Master with him who could also help him cope and control his emotions.
5.) If he hadn't met Padme, then yes Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born but it wouldn't have mattered because if you combine everything I've been saying then Anakin doesn't turn to the dark side, he kills Sidious, and Vader never exists so Luke has no purpose anyway.
6.) "...Partially obeys our commands." Yes, the Force has a will of its own, but it also listens to those who command it. It will follow the will of the Force user if it is commanded to do so. We make the choices we make, the Force cannot force (haha) someone to make a choice, they ultimately make it themselves. The Force is a guide, not a dictator.
The Prophecy says the Chosen One will kill the Sith, it doesn't dictate what happens in between finding the Chosen One and the fulfillment of the Prophecy. The might-have-beens are important indeed because they pave that path of the One. The Prophecy doesn't say that things COULDN'T have happened another way.
Originally posted by ArthasKnight
1.) There is nothing that says Anakin must fall to the dark side, nor is there anything saying that he has to stay on the light path. He only has to fulfill the Prophecy. It doesn't matter how he does it, he just has to do it. I agree with you, but I don't see how I'm wrong.2.) See 6.
3.) Of course the teacher matters. You can be taught control and I believe Qui-Gon would have done a better job at teaching Anakin merely because he did not stick to the rigidity that the Council demanded in its training methods. Obi-Wan represented this rigidity and it is a flaw which Qui-Gon could have corrected.
4.) Yes Shmi would have died, but had it been under different circumstances (i.e. a later time and not captured by Sand People) then Anakin would have learned more control by then and there would be nothing to slaughter in rage, plus he probably would have had his Master with him who could also help him cope and control his emotions.
5.) If he hadn't met Padme, then yes Luke and Leia wouldn't have been born but it wouldn't have mattered because if you combine everything I've been saying then Anakin doesn't turn to the dark side, he kills Sidious, and Vader never exists so Luke has no purpose anyway.
6.) "...Partially obeys our commands." Yes, the Force has a will of its own, but it also listens to those who command it. It will follow the will of the Force user if it is commanded to do so. We make the choices we make, the Force cannot force (haha) someone to make a choice, they ultimately make it themselves. The Force is a guide, not a dictator.
The Prophecy says the Chosen One will kill the Sith, it doesn't dictate what happens in between finding the Chosen One and the fulfillment of the Prophecy. The might-have-beens are important indeed because they pave that path of the One. The Prophecy doesn't say that things COULDN'T have happened another way.
1) Wrong only by saying that he could have forfilled the prophecy staying on the lightside and that the prophecy stated this to be a possibilty, which you had presented wrongly as a fact.
2, 3 and 6) Qui-gonn was aware of the "Living force" concept I'm speaking of... The teacher matters only so far as the will of the student to follow the teachings.... And the last I looked at TPM, Qui-Gonn didn't look like he was shy in defying his OWN teachers..... This'd probably have rubbed off on Anakin or at least, Anakin'd follow by example.(If he followed at all....) Getting back to the Force issue though... The whole symbiotic relationship states that its a "Two to tango thing with the force"
So yes it DOES have an influence.
4) Again all ifs, buts and maybes anyway when the only thing which matters is how it happened, which is the ONLY way it could have happened...The prophecy HAD to happen the way it did. Other wise it wasn't a prophecy. Besides how DO we know that someone with the issues that Anakin had wouldn't have reacted badly even if she'd lived 'til 60.... Anyway. Someone else may have murdered her, or an accident may have occurred, which could seem similarly unjust to Anakin...Sparking rage.... Anyway "it was her destiny" 😄
5) If he wasn't the one from the prophecy (Which he wouldn't be if he didn't have Luke and have Luke's torture trigger his attack on Palps,killing him and bringing balance)
then he couldn't have destroyed Palps and bought balance to the force anyway. Again. Circumstance was the thing that enabled the balance bringing. Without HIS circumstance bought about by all these actions in his life, he wouldn't be able to BE the 'chosen one'.
It's all good. I was thinking about something though. Sidious is Dooku's master, therefore he must be superior. (Sith and all) And every time Dooku faces Obi-Wan, he manages to punk him. He's just mastered Obi-Wan's defenses to well.
So you could say, based on that, that Obi-Wan could not defeat Sidious.
They should make another star wars game. Have young vader, mech vader, sidious, maul, qui-gonn, dooku, yoda, etc. (You see where I'm going.) It would be a mix of a classic fighting game (like street fighter 2) and ninja gaiden for x-box. Then we could all prove who we think wins lol
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) Wrong only by saying that he could have forfilled the prophecy staying on the lightside and that the prophecy stated this to be a possibilty, which you had presented wrongly as a fact.2, 3 and 6) Qui-gonn was aware of the "Living force" concept I'm speaking of... The teacher matters only so far as the will of the student to follow the teachings.... And the last I looked at TPM, Qui-Gonn didn't look like he was shy in defying his OWN teachers..... This'd probably have rubbed off on Anakin or at least, Anakin'd follow by example.(If he followed at all....) Getting back to the Force issue though... The whole symbiotic relationship states that its a "Two to tango thing with the force"
So yes it DOES have an influence.4) Again all ifs, buts and maybes anyway when the only thing which matters is how it happened, which is the ONLY way it could have happened...The prophecy HAD to happen the way it did. Other wise it wasn't a prophecy. Besides how DO we know that someone with the issues that Anakin had wouldn't have reacted badly even if she'd lived 'til 60.... Anyway. Someone else may have murdered her, or an accident may have occurred, which could seem similarly unjust to Anakin...Sparking rage.... Anyway "it was her destiny" 😄
5) If he wasn't the one from the prophecy (Which he wouldn't be if he didn't have Luke and have Luke's torture trigger his attack on Palps,killing him and bringing balance)
then he couldn't have destroyed Palps and bought balance to the force anyway. Again. Circumstance was the thing that enabled the balance bringing. Without HIS circumstance bought about by all these actions in his life, he wouldn't be able to BE the 'chosen one'.
1) Allow me to rephrase then, because I know what post you mean. I meant that the Prophecy tells use that Anakin will bring balance to the Force, not that it said the light side was a possibility. That was a miscommunication on my part.
2) The better the teacher the more will the student has to obey that teacher. Obviously Anakin saw that Obi-Wan had flaws and I think he would have responded more to Qui-Gon, liked him more as a teacher, and would have responded with less resistance than he does with Obi-Wan. He would have respected Qui-Gon more and therefore would have respected his decisions more than Obi-Wan's.
4) And I am still adamant in my position that id did not HAVE to happen that way, that the path could have been traveled any number of ways, and that Anakin could have stayed on the light path had he so chosen. The Prophecy only tells us the destination, that Anakin would defeat the Sith, not how he actually goes about doing it. And again, I stress the fact that Qui-Gon could have helped Anakin cope with his distress when his mother inevitably dies. Obi-Wan, whom Anakin respects and trusts, didn't know his mother had died and wasn't there to help him. Qui-Gon may have been there to help. Yes they are all ifs, maybes, and speculation but nothing here is certain so it calls for the ifs, maybes, and speculation.
5) What do the children have to do with the Prophecy exactly? it doesn't mention children, it mentions the Chosen One. It doesn't say that Anakin can't be the Chosen One if he doesn't have children, that's ridiculous. He could have destroyed Sidious without falling to the dark path. That being the case, the children may not have existed at all. They are not necessary to fulfill the Prophecy, only the Chosen One is. The only thing that makes Anakin the Chosen One is his ability to defeat Sidious, not the circumstances in his life.
Yes this is another long reply but like you said before, short replies apparently won't do here.
I just want to say a few things...
Qui-Gon would have been a better teacher. From when he was a boy, he had a better connection with him. Obi-Wan always kept it in his mind that he was forced to take Anakin as a Padawan, which blocked Anakin's learning, thus his control etc...You can see this in a deleted scene from ep I, where Anakin is fighting Greedo, Qui-Gon gives a little speech about anger and accepting other ones opinion. Anakin immediatly understands and accepts what Qui-Gon said. Again through their connection.
Shmi would die, no matter what path Anakin takes. The only mistake Anakin made was going after her. That is why you hear the duel of fates during the chase. It is Anakin's point of no return. At that moment Anakin's fate is sealed! Would he gone after her if he had Qui-Gon as a teacher? I don't think so. Qui-Gon was a hard teacher and Anakin wouldn't be so arrogant. You see you have the will of the Force...and you have choices. That is what the Jedi and the Sith do...you either follow the will of the Force or you don't. Anakin didn't, because of bad education, which Obi-Wan admits himself. "I thought I could instruct him aswell as Yoda, I was wrong!" I don't say Obi-Wan is a bad Jedi, not at all, but it was not Obi-Wan's choice (again...choices) to take him Anakin as a padawan which changed Anakin's character from a humble slave to an arrogant Jedi. Another example is that padawans who show respect to their masters built their lightsabers based on the ones of their masters. Anakin did not, again his choice cause his arrogance. All simple details. But it makes sense.
The prophecy...I didn't think it said Anakin should fall to the Dark Side. On the contrary. It probably also had something to do with the will of the Force, it is just the way you see what balance in the Force is...if it means that all the Sith are dead, yes Anakin did bring balance but through a longer path. The path would have been a lot shorter if he was trained different. Anakin wouldn't need his son to confront the Sith. He would have taken care of it immediatly!
To AK:
Apparently not. No....
1) Fair Enough then.
2) No matter how good the polisher is, you can't polish a turd.
Anakin may very well have listened to Qui-Gonn a little more, but
Anakin lead his own life like we all do. Im sure that he respected Obi-
wan too, but his own wishes/fears overode them....
Anyway, Qui-gonn died and that doesn't matter anyway.
4) Fair enough bout your adamance. I respect your right to your opinion.
But cause and effect still are a fundimental part of the SW universe,
and since the path of Anakins life lead him to the point where he
could forfill the prophecy, undoing that path, would alter the outcome
and the effects on the events that were in the prophecy.... Bringing
balance to the force.... Again. Prophecies are forfilled by what
happens, not what might.
5) The children allowed Anakin to be in the position he was in in Ep6 and
therefore aided killing the Emporer in the only way it occured, the
only way it could happen because by virtue of the fact that it did
happen.