Could Obi-WAN of beaten Darth Sidous

First of all, Cascador those are very good points and exactly what I was trying to say all along. Although "the balance of the Force" is known to be the eradication of the Sith.

Second of all...

2) True enough, he did live his life the way he wanted but with better guidance he could have lived a little differently.

4) Prophecies do indeed tell what happens, but still not necessarily HOW it happens. I am not denying what the Prophecy says, I am debating what it doesn't say.

5) I'm also not denying the children's importance, merely stating that if Anakin stayed on the light path then the children wouldn't have mattered.

Originally posted by Cascador
I just want to say a few things...

Qui-Gon would have been a better teacher. From when he was a boy, he had a better connection with him. Obi-Wan always kept it in his mind that he was forced to take Anakin as a Padawan, which blocked Anakin's learning, thus his control etc...You can see this in a deleted scene from ep I, where Anakin is fighting Greedo, Qui-Gon gives a little speech about anger and accepting other ones opinion. Anakin immediatly understands and accepts what Qui-Gon said. Again through their connection.

Shmi would die, no matter what path Anakin takes. The only mistake Anakin made was going after her. That is why you hear the duel of fates during the chase. It is Anakin's point of no return. At that moment Anakin's fate is sealed! Would he gone after her if he had Qui-Gon as a teacher? I don't think so. Qui-Gon was a hard teacher and Anakin wouldn't be so arrogant. You see you have the will of the Force...and you have choices. That is what the Jedi and the Sith do...you either follow the will of the Force or you don't. Anakin didn't, because of bad education, which Obi-Wan admits himself. "I thought I could instruct him aswell as Yoda, I was wrong!" I don't say Obi-Wan is a bad Jedi, not at all, but it was not Obi-Wan's choice (again...choices) to take him Anakin as a padawan which changed Anakin's character from a humble slave to an arrogant Jedi. Another example is that padawans who show respect to their masters built their lightsabers based on the ones of their masters. Anakin did not, again his choice cause his arrogance. All simple details. But it makes sense.

The prophecy...I didn't think it said Anakin should fall to the Dark Side. On the contrary. It probably also had something to do with the will of the Force, it is just the way you see what balance in the Force is...if it means that all the Sith are dead, yes Anakin did bring balance but through a longer path. The path would have been a lot shorter if he was trained different. Anakin wouldn't need his son to confront the Sith. He would have taken care of it immediatly!

But then he wouldn't match Palps for experience and would be whupped regardless. Besides, its not all about failures on the part of the Jedi...
Its equally about Palps homing in on Anakin's inherent sense of frustration at the lack of power afforded to you by the Jedi order...
Even if Qui-gonn had trained him, he STILL would've felt angry at not being able to hold on to the attachments/ relationships he had and would still most likely be bored. This was the kid who wanted to be first
to see all the stars, to free all the slaves and to hold on to his mother for all of his life...
Being in the Jedi order would've kept him from both dreams=resentment.

All this "What if stuff"... Man, one thing being overlooked in this is that as Yoda said, Anakin was TOO OLD to begin the training, which was why he found his attachment to his Mum too difficult to overcome.

What you say is partially true Sadako!
it are all what if's...and it didn't happen as the Jedi or the Sith had planned...The Jedi wanted Anakin to be a padawan who could control his anger...he didn't follow the right path as Mace indicates in the deleted scene in ep II, that if he did (again "if"😉 he would be a better padawan and he would have kicked Sidious ass. The Jedi didn't get what they want...but so did the Sith. Palpatine wanted a real strong apprentice...and who would be stronger than the chosen one himself! But because of his arrogance and overconfidence Anakin was defeated and badly damaged which gave Sidious a less stronger apprentice, but still very strong.

Can I say If again? With Qui-Gon as an educator, I think yes he would still feel angry but would be able to control it. He wouldn't go after his mother. He probably would attach to Padmé, but again, he would have better control over his emotions. And like I said he had a stronger connection with Qui-Gon. Would he be able to resist Palpatine's influence. I think so. The connection of Padawan and Master is very strong. But Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't have a strong connection like usual Padawan's and Masters.

I have to disagree. A LARGE portion of Anakin's frustration came from the way Obi-Wan trained him. Anakin already liked Qui-Gonn, because Qui-Gonn believed in him, while young Obi-Wan seemed not to trust him. Qui-Gonn's teachings were more like Anakin's way of doing things. He went with his instincts, allowing the force to guide him. I admit Qui-Gonn would have still had a rough time with Anakin's anger, but I am 100000% he would be better than Obi-Wan.
Obi-Wan admits it himself that he thought he was as good of an instructor as Yoda, and wasn't.
Yoda was wise to be cautious, but in the end didn't Luke refrain form the darkside?
Anakin could have done the same thing, but he had the most powerful politcal figure/force user in the galaxy telling him how great he is, how he should have more; manipulating the boy.
But, there's always been the point of, why not Mace Windu or Yoda directly training Anakin?

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
First of all, Cascador those are very good points and exactly what I was trying to say all along. Although "the balance of the Force" is known to be the eradication of the Sith.

Second of all...

2) True enough, he did live his life the way he wanted but with better guidance he could have lived a little differently.

4) Prophecies do indeed tell what happens, but still not necessarily HOW it happens. I am not denying what the Prophecy says, I am debating what it doesn't say.

5) I'm also not denying the children's importance, merely stating that if Anakin stayed on the light path then the children wouldn't have mattered.

1) At the time that the prophecy was known first (At least when Mace
mentioned it with Qui-gonn, the Sith were thought to not exist.
The prophecy seems to be non-specific about the destruction of the
Sith being involved.

2) Well he did get it and was hindered by natural "Weaknesses" that
would mess his life up anyways, but at the same time, would put him
on the path to forfilling the prophecy.

4) Well it doesn't say anything about R2 either... But he played his part. If it wasn't for him, the Jedi would never had made it to Tatooine.

5) Well. He had them as a part on his way to the prophecy, the same path he was bound to when Qui-gonn wanted to train him.

IMO Mace was the most cautious of anakin's teachings...and i think teaching would be the same way as it would be at a school...meaning that children will learn better from a person they can interact with...your not going to listen or like a teacher thats an a$$ ur going to want to listen to the teacher that you can talk to about things other then school..and its the same deal with anakin he couldn't open up with obi-wan...obi-wan was too strict he was old school jedi master...whereas qui-gon didn't follow things by the code..he seemed like a more learn from experience type teacher and thats the kind of free spirit that Anakin was and Obi-wan never gave him a chance to do anything independently to grow as a jedi...he was always babbysat...so i believe if he had a different master he may have been molded differently at his young age...

I guess the bottom line is, negating all ifs, buts and maybes would be, that Anakin was too old to go through training and keep to the lightside.

he was too old indeed...he was able to understand the world around him...right and wrong...death and life...pain and suffering

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1) At the time that the prophecy was known first (At least when Mace
mentioned it with Qui-gonn, the Sith were thought to not exist.
The prophecy seems to be non-specific about the destruction of the
Sith being involved.

2) Well he did get it and was hindered by natural "Weaknesses" that
would mess his life up anyways, but at the same time, would put him
on the path to forfilling the prophecy.

4) Well it doesn't say anything about R2 either... But he played his part. If it wasn't for him, the Jedi would never had made it to Tatooine.

5) Well. He had them as a part on his way to the prophecy, the same path he was bound to when Qui-gonn wanted to train him.

1) Oh yes, the Jedi had no idea what the Prophecy meant. But it has been confirmed that the Prophecy refers to destroying the Sith.

2) Exactly how did he get better guidance? I meant that he'd have gotten better guidance than Obi-Wan in the form of Qui-Gon. He could have helped Anakin improve on his weaknesses.

4+5) Exactly my point, it doesn't say that R2 or anyone else can't help. It doesn't say who can or cannot assist the Chosen One, only that he fulfill the Prophecy. Like I said, that path doesn't matter in this case, only the destination.

think of another small thing they say in spider-man...Anakin has a huge power...none other than any Jedi or Sith!
With great power comes great responsability!
Anakin couldn't carry that responsability and he didn't have Obi-Wan much to help him with that responsability.
Luke also has a large power like his father, but he had help from both Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Originally posted by ArthasKnight
path doesn't matter in this case, only the destination.

yuppp...there was no guidline only a goal...they coulda destroyed the whole universe but as long as there was balance in the force the prophecy was accurate...and i think thats what the problem was..they didnt think of the bad consequences that could happen they only thought "Prophecy were saved" at least most did...

1) In ROTJ, but aside from then, by whom and when?

2) We don't know... Maybe maybe not. All that matters is what DID occur

4+5) My whole point I guess, is more that if you removed R2, the Kids, Sidious, hell, even Sebulba, the prophecy wouldn't have occured as the prophecy was about the outcome of ROTJ... Not the prophecy of an EU
fantasy of what might have been.

Let's just agree on one thing!
Obi-Wan wasn't the best choice to be a master for Anakin!

Cause and effect are the guideline.

there was no specific layout on how to become the prophecy there could have been multiple ways..good or bad...so thats y i said there was no guildline but yea cause and effect is def. in there

Another think of what Sadako said...if R2 didn't rescue the Jedi, they would be dead and Qui-Gon wouldn't have found Anakin....doesn't matter! There is no such thing as coinsidence! If the Jedi died the Force would guide the Jedi so he was found. That's maybe something that failed in the past. Maybe it was meant to be that he was found when he was younger. Something could have disturbed that!

Originally posted by Cascador
Let's just agree on one thing!
Obi-Wan wasn't the best choice to be a master for Anakin!

😆
Yeah, but he was a neccesary link in the road that enabled Anakin to
do what he did...

How can you say Anakin was too old when Luke was like 15 years older when he started training?
Sidious' ability to trick Anakin and Anakin's dissapointment inObi-Wan/Obi-Wan thinking he's such a great teacher.

Originally posted by Cascador
Maybe it was meant to be that he was found when he was younger. Something could have disturbed that!

it was palpatine...he clouded..their...timing? lol

Originally posted by Darth_Nefarus
How can you say Anakin was too old when Luke was like 15 years older when he started training?
Sidious' ability to trick Anakin and Anakin's dissapointment inObi-Wan/Obi-Wan thinking he's such a great teacher.

but think of it im sure Luke wasnt 100% lightside..in my opinion he was barely lightside if not neutral you can tell by his thoughts and actions in ROTJ...believe me it was just a decision one way or the other and he did what his father didnt...it could have went either way...IMO