Originally posted by Gregory
America was founded by slave-holders. While we're at it, let's add shackles and chains to the symbols of the country.
Let's not even go there. Many other countries had slaves also. And nobody brings up how many of the slaves were sold in slavery by their own people. If you want to make statements like that, research world history.
America was founded by people that were persecuted for their beliefs. Then the English came and brought slavery.
good call, by the way not all Americans are christians. Dont see why they should be forced to swear on the bible.
Yes that is true; not all Americans are Christians, but the country was founded by Christians. And you're right, people shouldn't be forced to swear on the bible. It's an outdated symbol, and some courts have moved away from it. What I want to know is why two words have to get everybody in such a huff. If the majority doesn't want them in, take them out. If the majority wants them in, they stay in. Isn't that how democracy works?
Originally posted by Oswald Kenobi
Let's not even go there. Many other countries had slaves also. And nobody brings up how many of the slaves were sold in slavery by their own people. If you want to make statements like that, research world history.America was founded by people that were persecuted for their beliefs. Then the English came and brought slavery.
I know that African tribes sometimes sold their own in to slavery. I didn't bring it up because it wasn't relevant to my point, which was that the Founding Fathers doing something does not make that something goodl.
Yes that is true; not all Americans are Christians, but the country was founded by Christians.
Deists. At least, Jefferson was a Deist.
And no, Democracy does not mean that the majority get to trample on the rights of the minority. At least, it shouldn't mean that.
Being an athiest myself, I just take stuff like that in stride. If I was ever in court, I would refuse to swear on the bible, but the Pledge of Alliegiance is irrelevant to me. Little kids are forced to say that over and over again in a monotonous tone every day until the words hold no meaning for them anymore. They've certainly lost their meaning for me.
How is the majority rule trampling on the rights of the minority? The only thing I would like to see changed is the amount of majority.
The founding fathers incorporated their religious beliefs into the foundation of this country. Whether it's good or bad doesn't really matter now. I think it's worse to pick and choose what we want to honor about them. You have to take the whole or nothing at all.
The only practical argument for removing "under God" from the pledge is that was not originally there. That's a pretty powerful argument. The Supreme Court should send it back down to the appellate court without a ruling. That way it's removed, but there is no word of law that is should or shouldn't be there. Unless you put it to the American people to vote on, this is the only way to be fair to both groups.
Originally posted by Oswald Kenobi
How is the majority rule trampling on the rights of the minority?
Forcing atheists to acknowledge the existance of God violates their rights. Not all of them mind saying the "under God" part--Lord Soth doesn't, and I don't--but many do. The whole point of the Constitution is to keep things like that from happening. A majority of Americans might want to force their religious beliefs on others, but the Constitution says that they don't get to do that. It might be undemocratic, but if I believed in God, I'd thank him for it. In his absence, I'll thank Jefferson and his lot.
The founding fathers incorporated their religious beliefs into the foundation of this country.
The only mention of religion in the Constitution, which is what our country is founded on, is in the First Ammendmant, so I think you're wrong about this.
it should be an honest promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth...but today, more often it's just mere words people utter just because.....feeling nothing....really I believe people who claim to be atheists and don't want to swear on a Bible just like to argue....there are plenty of people who like to argue. sad but true
if they stop swearing on the Bible and saying "so help you God" they will have to change alot of things in America... like on the coins IN GOD WE TRUST.... lines in the constitution have something reffeing to God in it (according to my Global teacher)... the pledge... i dont know why it is a big deal.... nd about the majority trampling on the minority thing... most americans are monotheistic... so ur saying that the minority should over rule the majority...?????no... 3/4 americans believe in A God.... so no offence but move to a diffrent country if you dont like it...
Originally posted by Gregory
Forcing atheists to acknowledge the existance of God violates their rights. Not all of them mind saying the "under God" part--Lord Soth doesn't, and I don't--but many do. The whole point of the Constitution is to keep things like that from happening. A majority of Americans might want to force their religious beliefs on others, but the Constitution says that they don't get to do that. It might be undemocratic, but if I believed in God, I'd thank him for it. In his absence, I'll thank Jefferson and his lot.
Not allowing believers in God to use words is violating THEIR rights. It's a catch-22 any way you look at it.
The only mention of religion in the Constitution, which is what our country is founded on, is in the First Ammendmant, so I think you're wrong about this.
Check the Declaration of Independence, Gettysburg Address, and other speeches. There are references to God in them. Even the money has "In God We Trust" on it.
Speaking as a man with O-Level Law... In the UK, if a person is giving evidence under oath in a court of Law, he or she will be sworn in with his or her right hand upon the Bible, unless it is shown that to do so is meaningless or abbhorrent to the person so swearing, when an alternative form of the oath may then be given... for example, a Muslim would be allowed to swear on the Koran, promising in the name of Allah... a Hindu will pledge by his or her Dharma... As a Pagan, I am allowed to swear on a ring, hammer or sword... unless the court decides that any such religious oath would be innapropriate or ill advised, in which case the person so swearing will be asked to "Affirm that the evidence you shall give is the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But The Truth," upon which the person so swearing shall say "I affirm." This affirmation is held then to be legally binding, and if it is found that the person affirmed has lied, or failed to tell the whole truth (Lie by Omission) he or she will be held to be in contempt, and will be guilty of perjury... Atheists therefore Affirm, and have done in this country for, oh, fifty years or more...
Originally posted by JulieThere's something to be said for equality. It's only the idealism that was the basis of the ENTIRE country due to oppression from the King of England. But what you're saying is that we shouldn't all be equal: If we were truly equal, there would be no religious phrases on money. 🙄
it should be an honest promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth...but today, more often it's just mere words people utter just because.....feeling nothing....really I believe people who claim to be atheists and don't want to swear on a Bible just like to argue....there are plenty of people who like to argue. sad but true
i have another question:
on my cell phone warranty page of the manual, the warranty doesnt cover damage to the phone by "ACT OF GOD"
if my phone breaks n they wont fix it because its an "act of god" can i swear im an athiest, sue them, and get a new phone?
(id sue based on religious persecution, seems fair to me, jus wonderin...)
oh, n since we're discussin legal matters:
will a 7-11 sell a minor O'Douls (non-alcoholic beer)?
Originally posted by Oswald Kenobi
Not allowing believers in God to use words is violating THEIR rights. It's a catch-22 any way you look at it.
Rot. Maybe we should establish Christianity as a the official state religion? I mean, there are a lot of people who want that, aren't there? And we wouldn't want to "violate their rights," would we?
Check the Declaration of Independence, Gettysburg Address, and other speeches. There are references to God in them. Even the money has "In God We Trust" on it.
What about them? They're both speaches--one delivered by writing, one spoken--and have no legal value. They did not "found this country." And if I had my way, the money would not have that written on it.
Originally posted by WaDe_N_sPaRrOw
this is not just a christian issue... jews and muslins believe in one God... nd Jews Christians and Muslims make up 3/4 of this country!! so they shuld not change it..... i mean why change it for 1/4 of the country... its not rite... the majority rules... plain nd simple!
Yeh, and White people make up a majority of the country, too. So why should we have endeed segregation? Why bother fighting descrimination? The majority rules and to hell with everyone else!