what i meant was that evrything including us is made up pf physical particles, that also includes our mind, now depnding on the forces that rule or affect these particles, at a subatomic level, a particle will act only one way and that depends on types of forces actin on it and the type of forces it posesses which interact with other particles, looking at this we KNOW FOR A FACT that each and every particle in the universe has ONE predestined path which it will follow depending on its influences which are NOT RANDOM but are infact generated by other particles which have the same limitations. so now if WE humans are made up of particles which follow the laws of physics, then its understandable to believe that each and every particle that makes US will follow a predestined path depending on physical rules, which means that WE will follow the same path as the particles or atoms or molecules that make us. {ofcourse this is only true if u dont believe in supernatural stuff or beliefs}
Originally posted by leonheartmm
everything we do is predistened, that is in my oppinion a sciebtifically verified fact
Originally posted by leonheartmm
what i meant was that evrything including us is made up pf physical particles, that also includes our mind, now depnding on the forces that rule or affect these particles, at a subatomic level, a particle will act only one way and that depends on types of forces actin on it and the type of forces it posesses which interact with other particles, looking at this we KNOW FOR A FACT that each and every particle in the universe has ONE predestined path which it will follow depending on its influences which are NOT RANDOM but are infact generated by other particles which have the same limitations. so now if WE humans are made up of particles which follow the laws of physics, then its understandable to believe that each and every particle that makes US will follow a predestined path depending on physical rules, which means that WE will follow the same path as the particles or atoms or molecules that make us. {ofcourse this is only true if u dont believe in supernatural stuff or beliefs}
You obviously follow the extreme "Determinist" view of the
world, namey that everything that happens, from the thought
inside your head at 12:27 pm yesterday, to the ripples in the
small water puddle located three feet to the left of the last
step in front of the White House's front door, to the solar
flair occuring right now on the opposite face of the distant
star Proxima Centauri, all occured/occuring because of
a chain of atomic events that began form the Big Bang
itself.
I remember reading a very good article on that in Skeptic
magazine a few months back. They pointed out two very good
counter-arguments to such ideas. The first is the study of
quantum mechanics, which showed that there is a randomness
to the behavior of particles and their movements.
Secondly, there is the idea of "emergent phenomena", which
is basically much like the saying "the whole is greater than
the sum of its parts". Particles by themselves may be
predictable and following a certian order, but millions and
billions of them together do not behave as the individual.
Studying Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms will not make you
undrstand the nature of water. The behavior and outcome
get more and more complicated with an increase in the
participating components, both because of the increasing
number of variables, as well as the interaction between
them.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
incidently, ur thoughts are physically nothing more than electrical impulses which are manipulated ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.
As I said above, the whle is greater than the sum of its parts.
Besides, you neglect exra-sensory factors, such as the soul,
and spirituality and faith (such as in God).
But I wish to add one point. You made these posts in this thread
so as to presumably point out the silliness of my and debbiejo's
views, but you ignore the fact that you could, and should post
the same thing in virtually all the threads in this Forum site.
Afterall, every opinion made on this site, from which are the
best horror movies, to thoughts on Michael Jackson's trial, to
memories on an old Superman comic book, can all be similarly
dismissed by you as manifested outcomes of this atomic
chain-reaction that began some 15 billion years ago.
So why post just here?
Originally posted by debbiejo
It would explain the phenomenon of miracles when many people are together to pray for someone, that it does manifest many times, and how many people see the Virgin Mary through mass hysteria of being in like mind expecting the event.
Very very good point.
If indeed one's thoughts and emotions can affcet, or even be
transmitted to another, then it is quite possible that a person
with sufficiently strong, and sufficiently sharp, thoughts can
affect another/others, especially if the other(s) is made more
"impressionable" by current cultural sentiments (the "zeit geist"
as it is), or by personal beliefs that are harmonious with the
influencer.
Hmmm, it would seem that you and I may end up solving
the mysteries of man afterall!?
Oh, and about your signature picture, here is a picture that
you may like.
^ yup, There are laws of attraction and influence beyond speech that are being studied and have for quite awhile. I find it fascinating to see how all things connect that we previously didn't know about. I feel prejudices melt away when you can see the bigger picture.
Hey, those kinds of pictures makes ya think outside the box. I love that kind of stuff.
actually king burger, no matter how complicated the particles get as more and more of them combine together to form structures THEY STILL BEHAVE EXACTLY BY THE LAWS OF THEIR INDIVIDUAL PHYSICAS however thats too much for us to actually study because WE CANT UNDERSTAND SUCH COMPLICATED DETAILS OR DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES OR TIME TO UNDERSTAND IT. secondly the argument about randomness in the behaviour of particles is actually a misleading term. the actual priciple on that is called the UNCERTAINTY principle, what it says is that when WE{humans} try to detect the path of smaller and smaller particles very very accurately, we use electron microscopes, particle acceleraters, proton scintilaters etc. and all these intruments magnify more and more energy onto the particle whose path we are tryin to determine, the more magnification they try to get on the path, now this energy disrupts the initial motion of the particle and hence the more accurate results we try to get, the more energy the particle will recieve and thus the more it will move from its predestined path and resultantly the more error we will get. now this gives a certain limit for US to determine the particle's path in space time because the more we try to see its path, the more physical influence we do to the particle and at very very small calculative distances, US HUMANS accept our current limitations and say that WE cant judge the path of that particle any more accurately, however this DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PARTICLE DOES NOT HAVE A PREDESTINED PATH, it just means that WE CANT DETECT IT PRECISELY BECAUSE OF OUR CURRENT LIMITATIONS. which means that from all we know, the particle follows the exact path as it was supposed to and NOTHING ELSE.
OK..heres a group of people who know about this sub-atomic stuff and can discuss it..I find it really refreshing..I have read that these electrons have been known to wink in and out, or disappear and reappear, which is fascinating...Scientists are wondering "where do they go, when they disappear?" A different dimension? Also looking at these sub-particles is so new, but so interesting, because when you get really down to it they also change to a wave like substance instead of a solid, but in fact they really aren't a solid, but alive acting in random, but as a whole seem to be acting with some kind of intelligence. They have done experiments with emotions, which are invisible, and they seem to act as a type of a stimulus, and besides emotions were also thought energies.
Have you also heard this??
Originally posted by leonheartmm
actually king burger, no matter how complicated the particles get as more and more of them combine together to form structures THEY STILL BEHAVE EXACTLY BY THE LAWS OF THEIR INDIVIDUAL PHYSICAS however thats too much for us to actually study because WE CANT UNDERSTAND SUCH COMPLICATED DETAILS OR DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES OR TIME TO UNDERSTAND IT.
You misunderstand. The point isn't the particles, it is the
greater objects that they merge into. Like I said, you can
understand oxygen and hydrogen all you want, they won't
make you understand water and all it's various properties.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
secondly the argument about randomness in the behaviour of particles is actually a misleading term. the actual priciple on that is called the UNCERTAINTY principle, what it says is that when WE{humans} try to detect the path of smaller and smaller particles very very accurately, we use electron microscopes, particle acceleraters, proton scintilaters etc. and all these intruments magnify more and more energy onto the particle whose path we are tryin to determine, the more magnification they try to get on the path, now this energy disrupts the initial motion of the particle and hence the more accurate results we try to get, the more energy the particle will recieve and thus the more it will move from its predestined path and resultantly the more error we will get. now this gives a certain limit for US to determine the particle's path in space time because the more we try to see its path, the more physical influence we do to the particle and at very very small calculative distances, US HUMANS accept our current limitations and say that WE cant judge the path of that particle any more accurately, however this DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PARTICLE DOES NOT HAVE A PREDESTINED PATH, it just means that WE CANT DETECT IT PRECISELY BECAUSE OF OUR CURRENT LIMITATIONS. which means that from all we know, the particle follows the exact path as it was supposed to and NOTHING ELSE.
Maybe. But from what I read, there has yet to be any satisfying
"Hidden Variable".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory
Even Einstein has been unable to prove that the "indeterminate"
theory of Quantum Mechanics is invalid because of as-yet-hidden
variable that needs to be considered.
Originally posted by debbiejo
OK..heres a group of people who know about this sub-atomic stuff and can discuss it..I find it really refreshing..I have read that these electrons have been known to wink in and out, or disappear and reappear, which is fascinating...Scientists are wondering "where do they go, when they disappear?" A different dimension? Also looking at these sub-particles is so new, but so interesting, because when you get really down to it they also change to a wave like substance instead of a solid, but in fact they really aren't a solid, but alive acting in random, but as a whole seem to be acting with some kind of intelligence. They have done experiments with emotions, which are invisible, and they seem to act as a type of a stimulus, and besides emotions were also thought energies.
Have you also heard this??
Actually Debbie, you probably know alot more about
atomic and sub-atomic sciences than I do. I only know
a bit from what I picked up here and there.
I have never heard of this phenomena of particles
seemingly disappearing and appearing. Such a happening
could, maybe, be due to them moving or vibrating in
a different frequency, beyond the specifications that
were used to "see" them at the time. I guess.
About the changing of particles-waves, maybe this is
what they call the "Wave-Particle Duality":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave-particle_duality
http://www.twow.net/ObjText/OtkCaLdQmB.htm#04
About thoughts and emotions being like energ, or
mechanical energy, it is much like what you said in the
opening post, that the mind can affect the physics of
atleast small objects.
To be honest, I don't know that much about physics. I
used to be quite a good science student in school, but
that was many moons ago.
But to go back to the central issue. I do believe that
the human mind can influence the world around, though
an individual human mind may not have that great of an
influence beyond small things.
actually king burger if i understand EXACTLY the physics of hydrogen and oxygen, and understand exactly the influence each AND EVERY particle has on the other {or molecules in this case} in a given amount of water then there is no reason why i cant map out EXACTLY, the predetermined paths of the given molecules. and as for the popping in and out of existance thing, thas just a theory in the early stages of its developments, however i would like to tell you that the change in position is very very little in that case, for a comparison, lets say that a particle for example an electron pops in out and into existance in slightly different positions, lets say that the electron was as big as our entire universe, do u know how little a change in position it will aquire after getting back into existance, ill tell u, less than that of 1 METER! consider the length of 1 meter and consider the radius of the universe!!!! thas how little randomness particles are THOUGHT to show, ofcourse since we can not prove that infact this happens, it is still a theory. secondly even if we assume that a very minute amount of randomness is present in particles, is it still not a fact that however this random behaviour affects the course of a particle{and ive just told u how small it is}, we STILL HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THIS RANDOMNESS and our thoughts definately dont, so how can such little uncontrolled randomness give rise to OUR FREE WILL?
If you fully understood the nature of hydrogen and oxygen
atoms, then maybe you'll be able to predict their
behavior these atoms even after their union to form H2O.
But you probably won't be able to predict the behavior of
water itself.
As for the "disappearances" of particles. I don't know much
about that, but I think that maybe you exaggerated a bit
leonheartmm, in your analogy of the electron with the
entire universe, especially since no one knows for sure the
size of it.
Finally, you ask how such a small shift can have much of an
affect. Maybe not much if it's just one particle or atom, but
it would have a huge effect when talking about trillions and
trillions of particles (to use a very small number). It's like a
ship that turns one degree left. The change won't be noticable
after a few hundred meters, but it'll be very apparent
after a few miles.
no actually thas where ure wrong, i most certainly WOULD be able to predict the behaviour of water of a given volume if i have enough calculative power and if i have account of each and EVERY external force acting on every individual molecule of h2o, only thing is that would take more calculative and processing power than we can dream to ever achieve yet.
and as for the randomness of particles comparison of a less than 1 meter displacement in the whole diameter of the universe, no i most certainly did not exagarate.
and one more thing, i do understand that millions of particles having a slight change in would make a very noticable change over all but the change im talking about IS ALREADY PRESENT in every particle theoretically but i already told u that if u took it in account, it would mean a LESS THAN 1 METER distortion in size of the entire radius of the universe! so guess what, that is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too small to add up to anything even extremely insihnificant. and anyway, this randomness as i explained is not controlled by us so there really is no argument as it cant be translated to a different fate of a human being than his/her predestined fate.
If thoughts can't change an object that is in it's essence only sub particles, then how would you explain spoon bending? If indeed we are all connected by a wave energy of sub particles that blend into each other including the invisible air around us that may be in another frequency type station, then wouldn't you say that the spoon by bending was changed? It was not predestined, but altered by another force.
And yes they have been able to duplicate this over and over again, that thoughts do have some kind of substance to them...
Originally posted by leonheartmm
no actually thas where ure wrong, i most certainly WOULD be able to predict the behaviour of water of a given volume if i have enough calculative power and if i have account of each and EVERY external force acting on every individual molecule of h2o, only thing is that would take more calculative and processing power than we can dream to ever achieve yet.and as for the randomness of particles comparison of a less than 1 meter displacement in the whole diameter of the universe, no i most certainly did not exagarate.
...
and one more thing, i do understand that millions of particles having a slight change in would make a very noticable change over all but the change im talking about IS ALREADY PRESENT in every particle theoretically but i already told u that if u took it in account, it would mean a LESS THAN 1 METER distortion in size of the entire radius of the universe! so guess what, that is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too small to add up to anything even extremely insihnificant. and anyway, this randomness as i explained is not controlled by us so there really is no argument as it cant be translated to a different fate of a human being than his/her predestined fate.
Well ofcourse if your going to add "EVERY external force", then maybe
you can. But not from the particle alone.
And the universe-analogy if exaggerated. The size of the universe is
unknown.Scientists at best know only the size of the observable
universe.
Maybe a better analogy would be with your ego.
And who cares if the randomness of partcles' movements is not
controlled by humans? The point is that the universe and everything
that happens in it is not necessarily so well calculabe and predictable.
And furthermore, you ignore (as is your right) my pointing out of
spiritual factors like God. If you don't believe, then so be it.
Finally, you can't keep falling back on the argument that given enough
knowledge and powerful enough equipment, you can know all. That's
silly, because in that case, even if particles really functioned at
random, crazy random even, then you'd still know of their place and
state through your "omniscience".
Or, to expand it into the religious realm, you can argue that Heaven
is not really a "spiritual" place afterall, because given God's brains, you
would be able to explain it's nature and dimensions and physical
make-up.
Ofcourse, given god-like knowledge you would be able to know
all, or atleast nearly all, about the universe or about humanity.
Originally posted by debbiejo
If thoughts can't change an object that is in it's essence only sub particles, then how would you explain spoon bending? If indeed we are all connected by a wave energy of sub particles that blend into each other including the invisible air around us that may be in another frequency type station, then wouldn't you say that the spoon by bending was changed? It was not predestined, but altered by another force.And yes they have been able to duplicate this over and over again, that thoughts do have some kind of substance to them...
I think the point he's trying to make Debbie, is that everything that
one does if predistened, including applying any pressure on a spoon
to make it bend.
However, he has ignored the essense of your thread, which is the
influence that the mind can have over the world around. He's main
beef is free will vs. destiny.
About the bent spoon. I always thought that where-as thie Uri Geller
guy was probably a fake, that some people do have the ability to
exert enough mental-to-physical influence to affect something as
large and hard as a spoon. Though that would be a rare and hard
thing to do for even those with such "telekinetic" abilities.
Realxxxxx king burger, its not like i myself believe in nothing more than just a physical predestined universe, i was just surprised by how easily people believed that thoughts could influence the physical world and was just presenting a conflicting point of view to state the fact that infact there is a lot of evidence against the theory of thoughts beeing able to change the world around you, ofcourse im not dismissing the idea completely, i mean there must be some sense to it if so many people believe in it it and are involved i the theory, i suppose a really powerful psyche really might be able to change the physical world{like true psionics for example}, but the thing is that of all the evidence i have seen of psionics, most are fake and some that may truly have the ability never really tend to ever show their results to mainstreem out in the open science and present their case infront of the whole world to see on some accepted open media or something, it neveeer happens, and even the spoon bending phenomenon{and im not saying it doesnt exist} is only being studied by really small underfunded groups of scientists who can at most reveal their somewhat vague results to some paronormal tv shows at best{the kind that are not really accepted to be completely true and are not really taken very seriously}, this is the kinda stuff because of which it is hard for me to believe when someone states the psionic thing as if it is a proven fact thas all.