Darth Malak vs. Mace Windu

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you remember that what Malak demonstrated on Star Forge?

A) - He toyed with those two Jedi Knights with his TK abilities and then killed both of them instantly with Choke and Light Saber Throw.

B) - Malak was a master swordsman as well.

C) - Malak demonstrated Drain knowledge, which is deadly against anything. Mace cannot defend against this.

D) - Malak has shown us more Force moves then Dooku. Believe whatever you want to but Malak > Dooku.

E) - Sidious got unbalanced due to being hit by Mace's boot. But Malak is physically very strong. He can't get unbalanced like that by a simple Boot.

You haven't been paying attention, it would seem.

Those two Jedi Knights are nowhere near the caliber of Mace Windu. Windu invented the deadliest and most difficult lightsaber form. Yoda and the Jedi Council confirm this in his novel, Shatterpoint. Malak being a master swordsman is fine and dandy, but there's nothing that he has done that puts him on par with Windu.

Likewise, was he not powered by the Star Forge? It enhanced his abilities if I remember correctly. This isn't Star Forge-empowered Malak battling Windu.

Malak has no defense against Vaapad or Shatterpoint. He's going down, hard.

Originally posted by Gideon
You haven't been paying attention, it would seem.

Those two Jedi Knights are nowhere near the caliber of Mace Windu. Windu invented [B]the deadliest and most difficult lightsaber form. Yoda and the Jedi Council confirm this in his novel, Shatterpoint. Malak being a master swordsman is fine and dandy, but there's nothing that he has done that puts him on par with Windu.

Likewise, was he not powered by the Star Forge? It enhanced his abilities if I remember correctly. This isn't Star Forge-empowered Malak battling Windu.

Malak has no defense against Vaapad or Shatterpoint. He's going down, hard. [/B]

Also, I have said before that Mace will win (due to his Vaapad) ability.

And if this is not SF powered Malak, then Mace can will more easily. It will still be a good fight.

And if this SF powered Malak, then Mace will have lots of problems and this fight can go either ways.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Those two Jedi knights made it to Malak's position, which is a noticeable achievement. And Malak killed them both like children. Guess what? Malak is very good as well.

Also, I have said before that Mace will win (due to his Vaapad) ability.

And if this is not SF powered Malak, then Mace can will more easily. It will still be a good fight.

And if this SF powered Malak, then Mace will have lots of problems and this fight can go either ways.

Again, those two Jedi Knights are not on Windu's level of skill. Guess what? Malak is good, but Mace is much better. 🙂

This is NOT SF-powered Malak. This is regular Malak. Malak has no defense against Vaapad. No defense against Shatterpoint. And he isn't familiar with them on any level. Given that Vaapad works as a "super conductive loop" against Dark siders, what the hell is Malak gonna do?

Oh, yeah. Go down. Hard.

Originally posted by Gideon
Again, those two Jedi Knights are not on Windu's level of skill. Guess what? Malak is good, but Mace is much better. 🙂

This is NOT SF-powered Malak. This is regular Malak. Malak has no defense against Vaapad. No defense against Shatterpoint. And he isn't familiar with them on any level. Given that Vaapad works as a "super conductive loop" against Dark siders, what the hell is Malak gonna do?

Oh, yeah. Go down. Hard.

Normal Malak goes down after moderate difficulty. It will be a good fight still.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well! if this is not SF powered Malak then I agree with your case.

Normal Malak goes down after moderate difficulty. It will be a good fight still.

Again, you have yet to prove why it would be a good fight.

Mace is armed with two weapons that Malak has zero familiarity with and zero defense against: Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Vaapad has an extremely effective knack for turning the strength of dark side combatants into a strength for Windu. It's how he was eventually able to overcome Sidious (who is much more powerful than Malak) in a lightsaber duel.

Malak's a "master swordsman". Big whoop. Obi-Wan was called the same thing, as was Qui-Gon Jinn. Neither of them stand a chance against Windu in combat.

If all you've got is "physical strength", then you're losing that argument, too. Mace was able to punch a guy six times in a single second. There are accounts of him defeating an army with his barehand, and he engaged in multiple physical brawls on Koruun Hal - which I highly doubt Malak'd win.

Malak's big, therefore, he must be pretty strong. Arguable, logical. But Mace has shown levels of superhuman strength due to his skill with the Force and his skill as a fighter.

Malak. Gets. Tooled.

Originally posted by Gideon
Mace is armed with two weapons that Malak has zero familiarity with and zero defense against: Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Vaapad has an extremely effective knack for turning the strength of dark side combatants into a strength for Windu. It's how he was eventually able to overcome Sidious (who is much more powerful than Malak) in a lightsaber duel.

Originally posted by Gideon
Malak's a "master swordsman". Big whoop. Obi-Wan was called the same thing, as was Qui-Gon Jinn. Neither of them stand a chance against Windu in combat.

Qui-Gon Jinn was also very good but he was certainly not on par with Mace and Yoda and possibly Anakin. He got pawned by Maul.

Malak is excellent at offensive attack and thus does not relies on Soresu. He was actually considered to be the 2nd best warrior after Revan among thousands of Jedi.

Originally posted by Gideon
If all you've got is "physical strength", then you're losing that argument, too. Mace was able to punch a guy six times in a single second. There are accounts of him defeating an army with his barehand, and he engaged in multiple physical brawls on Koruun Hal - which I highly doubt Malak'd win.

Originally posted by Gideon
Malak's big, therefore, he must be pretty strong. Arguable, logical. But Mace has shown levels of superhuman strength due to his skill with the Force and his skill as a fighter.

Malak also has shown superhuman strength by survivng and being tolerating the terrible wound on his FACE. Pure death ripped through his Face and he survived and still did very well. This is damn impressive.

Originally posted by Gideon
Malak. Gets. Tooled. [/B]

Ok, when you can prove how Malak survived that, do let me know. Don't think his survival is due to, y'know, cybernetics and the like?

Originally posted by Gideon
Again, you have yet to prove why it would be a good fight.

Mace is armed with two weapons that Malak has [B]zero familiarity with and zero defense against: Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Vaapad has an extremely effective knack for turning the strength of dark side combatants into a strength for Windu. It's how he was eventually able to overcome Sidious (who is much more powerful than Malak) in a lightsaber duel.

Malak's a "master swordsman". Big whoop. Obi-Wan was called the same thing, as was Qui-Gon Jinn. Neither of them stand a chance against Windu in combat.

If all you've got is "physical strength", then you're losing that argument, too. Mace was able to punch a guy six times in a single second. There are accounts of him defeating an army with his barehand, and he engaged in multiple physical brawls on Koruun Hal - which I highly doubt Malak'd win.

Malak's big, therefore, he must be pretty strong. Arguable, logical. But Mace has shown levels of superhuman strength due to his skill with the Force and his skill as a fighter.

Malak. Gets. Tooled. [/B]

1. Why is Malak not powered by the Star Forge? The thread creator didn't elaborate on which incarnation of Malak this is, and when that happens, do we not usually just assume that it is the character at his peak?

2. People blow that whole Vaapad thing out of proportion. You can't just say that Mace's form alone will give him the edge, when we can quite clearly see that he's a pretty average swordsman from the movies. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that it's somewhat expert against darksiders?

3. You don't seem to understand the whole shatterpoint technique. It's not something which Malak has zero familiarity with, Shatterpoint (the novel) indicates that most jedi know the technique; all it is, is using the force to discover weaknesses in certain situations, or people etc. The ability isn't solely available to Mace Windu, he just has a talent with it.

Also, from Shatterpoint: Situations have shatterpoints, like gems. But those of situations are fluid, ephemeral, appearing for a bare instant, vanishing again to leave no trace of their existence. They are always a function of timing. The shatterpoint technique would most likely be pretty ineffective in a battle with someone like Malak.

Vaapad is what makes Mace powerful against Dark Siders and I agree with this. This is why Malak is at disadvantage but Sidious did not went down very fast and Malak will also not go down very fast. Sidious has speed while Malak has great strength.

Please. Saying that Malak will not go down fast because Sidious didn't is pathetic. Sidious > Malak. Just because Sidious went down with difficulty does not mean that Malak will give Mace a hard time.

Obi-Wan was never considered to be a master swordsman. He was very good with "Soresu" and thats it, which is a defensive technique. Whenever Obi-Wan tried to make an offensive attack, he got pawned.

No. Obi-Wan was considered a master swordsmen. Period. Mace said so, and it was his whole argument for sending him after General Grievous - who managed to survive a duel with Mace himself, and who was more than a match for the vast majority of the Jedi at the time. Use common sense: because Obi-Wan is skilled with Soresu (and a master of it), he has mastered a legitimate lightsaber form. People who have mastered lightsaber form are "master swordsmen". Some are more than others.

Qui-Gon Jinn was also very good but he was certainly not on par with Mace and Yoda and possibly Anakin. He got pawned by Maul.

Wrong. Obi-Wan considered Qui-Gon to be on par with most of the Council members. Just because he got "pawned" by Maul is irrelevent - Maul is a highly skilled combatant and warrior.

Malak is excellent at offensive attack and thus does not relies on Soresu. He was actually considered to be the 2nd best warrior after Revan among thousands of Jedi.

Great! Malak is excellent at offensive attack. That's brilliant. So was Anakin (who was more powerful than Dooku) - and he couldn't breach Obi-Wan's defense. What makes you think Malak is going to? 🙄

Yeah! in Star Wars cartoons perhaps. Malak was also physically very strong as well. He survived a damn Light Saber attack on his FACE. How many Jedi can survive a f**king Light Saber attack on their Faces that ripped the entire Jaw out?

[Planet] Wrong! Waa! [/Planet]

He performed several impressive physical feats in Shatterpoint - facing off against Kar Vastor (who possessed raw power on par with Yoda in the jungles of Koruun Hal). And, please. People survive amputated limbs all the time. Guess you've never watched an episode of Star Wars. Just because Malak survived the loss of his jaw means jack. Anakin lost all of his limbs and survived. Big friggen whoop.

No it is not argueable. Strength is a very important factor in determining that you won't tire out easily in a hard fight. Strength always adds to Power.

Strength =/= power. Sidious is more powerful than Mace, but no where near as strong. Strength (coupled with speed, mind you) means that you're more likely to win a damn saber lock. You have yet to prove that Malak > Mace in strength.

Malak also has shown superhuman strength by survivng and being tolerating the terrible wound on his FACE. Pure death ripped through his Face and he survived and still did very well. This is damn impressive.

No, Anakin surviving his wounds is impressive. Malak lost a jaw, which as far as I'm concerned, is about as impressive as Luke losing his hand.

Sorry! I am not convinced.

Sorry! Not really caring.

Darth Malak's Profile:

From the Star Wars Databank -

See Italic line explanations below the biography.

For thousands of years, the Sith and the Jedi have waged war, with control of the galaxy at stake. Though the Jedi Knights did not seek to rule, they served the Republic in their efforts to vanquish the Sith Lords. In the darkest reaches of the distant past, the Sith would strike in full force, seeking to exert their dark will upon a terrified public.
Four millennia before the Sith would eventually subvert the Galactic Republic into a New Order, the galaxy was still reeling from the last great Sith uprising. Licking its wounds from the Great Sith War, the Republic again found itself on the defensive as Mandalorian raiders attacked from the Outer Rim.

The beleaguered Jedi Knights fought valiantly to repulse the Mandalorian marauders. Foremost among the heroes of this era were the Jedi warriors Malak and Revan . Revan's clever military strategies proved successful time and again, while Malak gained a reputation as a headstrong warrior who would recklessly charge into danger . Malak's former Masters were well aware of this impetuousness during his days at the training academy on Dantooine. They were hesitant to unleash Malak onto the battlefields, but the strains of the Mandalorian Wars left them few options.

Turning the tide of the Mandalorian attacks, Malak and Revan pursued the fleeing forces into uncharted regions of space. All contact was lost between the Republic and the two Jedi warriors. In the unknown regions, something terrible happened. The two Jedi heroes succumbed to the dark side, and would return to the galaxy as Sith Lords -- Darth Revan as the mentor, and Darth Malak as the apprentice.

The Sith Lords had somehow amassed a huge military force, and with each world that they conquered, they added to their legions. Disturbingly, many Jedi Knights and Republic soldiers switched sides, joining forces with the growing Sith movement. The Republic stood on the verge of collapse from the repeated attacks of Darth Malak's forces.

Fueling the Sith conquest was the Star Forge. An ancient device of amazing Rakatan engineering, the Star Forge was an immense space-bound factory station that churned out an endless supply of vessels and combat materiel. Revan and Malak had found clues to its existence during their time in the Unknown Regions, and were able to uncover the Star Forge's location in orbit over an incredibly ancient world.

The Jedi Council, in a last ditch effort to stop Revan and Malak, engineered a trap for the Sith Lords. Though the snare neutralized Darth Revan, Malak escaped and took control of the Sith forces. Some claim that Malak fled the battle. Others maintain that he survived simply because he was stronger than Revan. Still others believe Malak turned on Revan, using the Jedi's attack as an opportunity to wrest control from his former Master's failing grip. Whatever the truth, Malak survived, and returned with a vengeance.

From the bridge of the massive cruiser Leviathan, Malak would order the razing of entire worlds. Planets such as Taris and Dantooine felt the might of the Sith Lord's wrath. Commanding Malak's fleet forces was Admiral Saul Karath, a former Republic officer. Malak took on an apprentice, Darth Bandon, to do his bidding.

Revan, a Jedi captive, was stripped of all memories of a Sith past, and was turned into an agent of the Republic. Jedi observers closely watched Revan as the "reformed" Sith traced the path blazed during the initial search for the Star Forge. In this manner, agents of the Republic were able to find the station and confront Malak.

This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic. The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.

Malak was a tall human who was horridly injured in a lightsaber duel. A swipe from a laser sword severed his lower jaw, and Malak was forced to wear a metallic jaw guard that hid his disfigurement from view. The guard also included a vocoder, through which Malak spoke with an eerie metallic tone.

1) Revan and Malak were heroes of the Republic. Malak, alongside his companion Revan, was able to lead the forces of the Republic and kill hundreds of Mandalorians.

2) The second italic line shows how Malak bears a similarity to Anakin Skywalker. The Jedi Council feared to use him in combat because of his power, strength, and arrogance. He was deadly in many aspects.

3) Malak suffered a lightsaber wound during his tenure as the Dark Lord. There is no one else besides Kavar who challenged Malak and lived. Kavar was one of the Order's strongest, and he was bested by Malak.

4) Malak was the Dark Lord of a very martial time of Jedi and Sith. There were many powerful Sith in the Sith Empire of Malak, but no even dared to challenge Malak because of his strength.

Now there's more references to Malak's power in Wookiepedia. However, I'm too lazy to show those.

Darth Malak, I would say, is par to ROTS Darth Tyrannus. Now, since ROTS Mace > ROTS Tyrannus, then I would say ROTS Mace > Malak by transitive.

Even then, Mace's mastery of Vapaad and his Shatterpoint allows him to win this.

Here's an argument that I've borrowed from a very intelligent person on another board, it was in a 'Malak vs Dooku' thread.

I'd give this to Malak, by quite a fair margin.

Saberwise:
Malak was a saber prodigy, most likely having mastered Schien or Makashi (judging by the way he fights in cutscenes), and with the exception of Revan, he outclassed anyone in the KotOR era.
The fact that he was so high up on the scales, in such a martial period which saw lots of jedi on sith action speaks volumes. He was also a frontline general for the sith empire, and would have seen an extraordinary amount of fighting; in terms of battle experience he has way more than Dooku, and he had the type of battle experience that is more relevant for a fight like this - jedi on sith, lightsaber on lightsaber. In terms of experience, he has received way more that would be beneficial to a fight between force users like this. Even in the Mandalorian wars, he would have received more relevant experience as they used blades as well as blasters.
He was also a huge and physically strong man, and he was young and most likely in his physical prime, whereas Dooku was an old man and had to compensate for his age by wasting precious force energy.
And while we don't know much about what he did, we do know that he defeated Bastilla (who herself was no pushover, one of the top jedi), we do know that he defeated Kavar (the head of the jedi guardians, most likely the order's top duelist), and logic dictates that he killed a bunch of jedi as well. And he was also able to put up a great fight against Jedi Master Revan (who was said to be stronger than Dark Lord Darth Revan) on the Star Forge, granted he was powered up by the SF. And while he was said to have lost his jaw in combat, logic points to Revan being the one who did it, as they were stated to have fought for the mantle of dark lord of the sith, and we know that Revan beat him; if it had been a jedi, they would have most likely captured him or killed him or something, whereas Revan would have use for him, so it was most likely Revan.
But really, the fact that he was so close to Revan speaks volumes and puts him above Dooku in my eyes.

Forcewise:
Malak was a force prodigy, knew ancient sith teachings (such as force drain as demonstrated on the star forge, and most likely other things such as force storm, thought bomb, probably had many sith artifacts and whatnot that he and Revan plundered from Korriban) and was stated to be not too far from Darth Revan who we know now from PoD was uber.
He has demonstrated extreme force mastery such as using the force to lift two jedi up, choking the first one while blasting the other with lightning, then throwing his saber into the first one killing him while throwing the second back using the force. These two jedi were clearly very skilled having fought through much of the Star Forge, and Malak just toyed with both of them like they were nothing. I'd say this feat alone puts him above Dooku.
He was also able to suppress Revan's precognition well enough to surprise attack Revan - this is extremely impressive, Revan's precognition was stated to be above the level of Echani masters who could predict the outcome of war years before they happened.
There's also the fact that Malak was able to rule above Nihilus and Sion, in a society where the strongest rule, so this must tell you something.

I'd say Malak definitely has this, quite easily as well.

Did you not just bash the hell out of DS for "borrowing" arguments and being unoriginal?

Ah the beauty of stupidity and hypocrisy, or rather makings hit up.. You're cool nebaris/planet🙂

Did I mention the argument came from Nebaris? 😛

Well, let's not bash him back or waste thread-space pointing out how stupid, hypocritical, and pathetic he is acting.

However, despite his most passionate attempts, he has yet to prove (even with that accolade copied from "an intelligent person"😉 that Malak is on par with Count Dooku - let alone "better than him by a fair margin".

And even if he is, it is irrelevent. Malak is a practitioner of the dark side of the Force - thus he is susceptible and weak to the workings of Vaapad.

Edit: Which means, what? Are you trying to excuse your hypocrisy? The only way to do that would be to admit that you and Nebaris are one in the same - which means that you're going to be banned. Either way, Nebaris was ridiculed and despised on her for his lack of ability. He's not intelligent, he's wrong.

I'm not being a hypocrite. I copy one argument, so what? The rest of mine are mostly original. Need I point out that I never looked down on DS because he copied one or two arguments, it's because all of his arguments are copied, yet he continuously tells people to 'stop copying those guys at EoD'. Sexy's the hypocrite, not me.

Anyways, in terms of the force, that one display by Malak is above anything Dooku or Windu have ever done.

Originally posted by Sexyback
I'm not being a hypocrite. I copy one argument, so what? The rest of mine are mostly original. Need I point out that I never looked down on DS because he copied one or two arguments, it's because all of his arguments are copied, yet he continuously tells people to 'stop copying those guys at EoD'. Sexy's the hypocrite, not me.

Anyways, in terms of the force, that one display by Malak is above anything Dooku or Windu have ever done.

No.

Count Dooku brought Asajj Ventress to her knees by lifting a finger.

Try again. 🙂

Edit: Don't copy other people's arguments and bash other people about it. Only makes you look more idiotic.

Man this kid is a trip. This forum has been devoid of humor lately, so that would explain why this fool is still here and not banned for incessant stupidity.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

Count Dooku brought Asajj Ventress to her knees by lifting a finger.

Try again. 🙂

Edit: Don't copy other people's arguments and bash other people about it. Only makes you look more idiotic.

Dooku had taught Ventress everything she knew about the darkside, he would have known her weaknesses. And Dooku was on Vjun at the time, a place that increased a darksiders power by quite a bit. Doesn't quite compare.

Edit: I 'bash' Sexy for only using copied arguments, and then telling others to stop copying other people's. Burrowing one argument, when the rest are mostly my own and original is perfectly fine, especially considering I didn't actually try to pass it off as my own, and made a point in telling everyone that I burrowed it.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Did I mention the argument came from Nebaris? 😛

Not hard to get stuff from Nebaris, for you...