Classic Debate: If a tree falls in the woods...

By 'the tree falls' I meant whether or not it makes a sound, I just forgot to type the rest.

And Im really not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to point a out a possible error in your reasoning. You keep talking about how inference isnt absolute proof of whether or not the tree makes a sound, Im saying that even if you watch the tree fall and actually hear the sound it still isnt absolute proof that it happened.

So basically your whole argument wasnt even necessary to prove the point, because proving that the tree makes a sound is impossible even if your actually there.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
So basically your whole argument wasnt even necessary to prove the point, because proving that the tree makes a sound is impossible even if your actually there.

If you had read more closely, you would understand that he has, in fact, emphasized that point... many times.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
By 'the tree falls' I meant whether or not it makes a sound, I just forgot to type the rest.

And Im really not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to point a out a possible error in your reasoning. You keep talking about how inference isnt absolute proof of whether or not the tree makes a sound, Im saying that even if you watch the tree fall and actually hear the sound it still isnt absolute proof that it happened.

So basically your whole argument wasnt even necessary to prove the point, because proving that the tree makes a sound is impossible even if your actually there.

You fail to define the level of proof you find acceptible.

See, if we wanted to find real answers... absolute ones, we can not do that without absolute proof. The basic assumption made in ANY reasonable argument is that the sensory data we receive is adequate in showing us a portion of reality. But again, that's not the question here. It's pretty evident that this assumption is being made, or else we wouldn't be having the question posed to us: does the tree make a sound if no one's there to hear it?

But if you're looking for objective proof... that is, proof that satisfies human reason, you have to first work with the assumption that the sound is there SINCE you hear it. And of course, if you're not there to hear it, it becomes a dilemma. So we go back to the basics, and reestablish that since the foundation of our knowledge is sensory data, in absence of that all we have are inferences, which are: a) based on a singular assumption that the information is correct; and b) since even this basic assumption cannot be fulfilled, we really have no way of knowing for sure, 100%. We have only the inferences.

Back to your assertion, you could argue that hearing the tree fall isn't absolute proof (And in a sense, you might be right), but then again you might be wrong. It's an assumption to say your assumption is wrong.

We must have acess to some information about the tree if we want to prove that. If we cannot have any kind of information about that tree, then that tree is purely metaphysical, it is like discussing about God. There is no way of treating this problem scientifically this way.

Sound...sound is the brain interpreting the compression and rarification of atmosphere. So if no one is around to have the compression and rarification of air enter their ear then no, it did not make a "sound". Now there are changes in the pressure in the air, but sound is something that happens in your head.

compression - more atmospheric stuff in an area
rarification - less atmospheric stuff in an area

This is the scientific answer. Unless she is defining sound incorrectly.

I am interpreting sound as the mechanical wave itself more than the sensation sound. My comments apply only to the first definition.

You know, words can have more than just one definition.

Originally posted by Regret
Sound...sound is the brain interpreting the compression and rarification of atmosphere. So if no one is around to have the compression and rarification of air enter their ear then no, it did not make a "sound". Now there are changes in the pressure in the air, but sound is something that happens in your head.

compression - more atmospheric stuff in an area
rarification - less atmospheric stuff in an area

This is the scientific answer. Unless she is defining sound incorrectly.

What does that definition have to do with the tree falling down in the woods? 😐

Originally posted by Atlantis001
I am interpreting sound as the mechanical wave itself more than the sensation sound. My comments apply only to the first definition.

You know, words can have more than just one definition.

So, the question does not have to do with sound, and should be stated as:

If a tree falls in the woods, and doesn't touch anything on the way down, and doesn't change the ground, ...

...and no one is around, other than it being on the ground, is there an effect of some type?

Or

Does a sound wave have an effect once it's audible range decreases to nothing, did it effect something as the wave dispersed, and will that effect prove to cause some other response in the environment?

I solved this a long time ago........Yes, it makes a sound......

Originally posted by debbiejo
I solved this a long time ago........Yes, it makes a sound......

No, it doesn't. Sound must be perceived by an ear to be sound. By its very definition. If no one perceives it, it is not perceived, ergo it is NOT sound. Period.

Not nessasarily. Supersonic and Ultrasonic sound are still sound, but beyond human/animal hearing and not perceived by an ear.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
No, it doesn't. Sound must be perceived by an ear to be sound. By its very definition. If no one perceives it, it is not perceived, ergo it is NOT sound. Period.

Oi... this again.

sound, any disturbance that travels through an elastic medium such as air, ground, or water to be heard by the human ear. When a body vibrates, or moves back and forth (see vibration), the oscillation causes a periodic disturbance of the surrounding air or other medium that radiates outward in straight lines in the form of a pressure wave. The effect these waves produce upon the ear is perceived as sound. From the point of view of physics, sound is considered to be the waves of vibratory motion themselves, whether or not they are heard by the human ear.Generation of Sound Waves

Sound waves are generated by any vibrating body.

1. Sound in the original sense must be perceived by the human ear or its not sound. If it's not being perceived, it's not sound. Period.

2. In physics, a body must vibrate to create sound. The act of a tree falling is not a vibrating body.

vibration, in physics, commonly an oscillatory motion—a movement first in one direction and then back again in the opposite direction.

The tree is moving in one direction only. So the question remains... even if there was some sort of vibration in the air that we would register as sound had we been there, can we PROVE that sound is still generated when we cannot perceive it at all. The answer is we cannot. Period. QED.

A tree falling MAKES a vibration.....Simple....All things make vibrations as in quantum physics teaches. And can be picked up on many levels......Just because YOU don't hear it, doesn't mean it doesn't make a sound......

Originally posted by debbiejo
A tree falling MAKES a vibration.....Simple....All things make vibrations as in quantum physics teaches. And can be picked up on many levels......Just because YOU don't hear it, doesn't mean it doesn't make a sound......

Debbie, you seem to be totally missing the point- physics is a school of thought and answers based on what?

The answer is inferences. Inferences are assumptions based on past experience and observation. In all of those cases, the sound had to be perceived. Never once was sound NOT perceived and was somehow able to be recorded or understood by human beings. The entire point of the argument is that IF you cannot perceive the sound, THEN you can never prove that it exists; you can only infer that it does from past experiences... when you or someone else was already there.

That's the entire point of the argument. Yes, we can argue logically and in accordance with common sense that it makes a sound... Yet we can never be 100% certain that it does.

Perceive is the question........My question IS on what level?......Quantum physics says it IS on some level.

Everything effects all.........With this, IT DOES make a sound.

It's silly not to think so.......

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Oi... this again.

[b]sound, any disturbance that travels through an elastic medium such as air, ground, or water to be heard by the human ear. When a body vibrates, or moves back and forth (see vibration), the oscillation causes a periodic disturbance of the surrounding air or other medium that radiates outward in straight lines in the form of a pressure wave. The effect these waves produce upon the ear is perceived as sound. From the point of view of physics, sound is considered to be the waves of vibratory motion themselves, whether or not they are heard by the human ear.Generation of Sound Waves

Sound waves are generated by any vibrating body.

1. Sound in the original sense must be perceived by the human ear or its not sound. If it's not being perceived, it's not sound. Period.

2. In physics, a body must vibrate to create sound. The act of a tree falling is not a vibrating body.

vibration, in physics, commonly an oscillatory motion—a movement first in one direction and then back again in the opposite direction.

The tree is moving in one direction only. So the question remains... even if there was some sort of vibration in the air that we would register as sound had we been there, can we PROVE that sound is still generated when we cannot perceive it at all. The answer is we cannot. Period. QED. [/B]

😄 woot, thanks for posting the full def. there. Yay for Janus.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Perceive is the question........My question IS on what level?......Quantum physics says it IS on some level.

Everything effects all.........With this, IT DOES make a sound.

It's silly not to think so.......

But is it sound? Not does it have an effect, unless someone answered my question and said yes, one of those questions was the real question

Factorial everything makes a vibration, so thinking along those lines.......vibrations makes some sound on some level.......sooooo...

Doesn't matter on what level you hear it..or feel it..........COMMON SENSE....If a tree falls it makes a sound.....

Am I missing something..........It's just common sense.

Almost like...........if a man say's he's right and no women is there to hear.........is he still right??? 🙄

Quantum mechanics says that the sound or even the tree does not exist objectively if the tree is completely isolated from us. In quantum mechanics something just exist objectively when its being observed even if indirectly.