Originally posted by Fishy
Carth just simply has the skills the experience and the reputation. Han has none of those things. Carth wins.
Han doesn't have any experience, skills and reputation ?
- at the age of nineteen he together with two of his friends stole a great amount of the Ylesian High Priests private art collection
- he was trained to become a soldier and reached the rang of an lieutenant before he was dishonorably discharged from the Imperial Army for helping Chewbacca escape from Imperial slavery; during that time he earned the right to wear the Corellian bloodstripe.
- after doing that he spent 5 years of time smuggling stuff with Chewbacca and was known to be one of the best of his buisness; in this time he destroyed the Corporate Sector Authority's secret prision "Star's End" and a slave trade ring connected with the CSA
- this is followed by the events during the Galactic Civil War (ANH - ROTJ) where he not only participated in the war against the Empire but did kill several Bounty Hunters that were send after him by the Empire and Jabba the Hutt
- after that he was responsible for the fall of the Warlord Zsinj
- he participated in some mercenary missions and did a lot of work for the NR intelligence
- he was present at the Battle of Wayland (resulting in the death of Joruus C'Baoth)
- he managed to escape from the prison on Kessel as well as he managed to escape Admiral Daala
Skill:
- he's piloting skills where outstanding enough to surprise and impress Vader (during the Battle of Yavin and when Han flew into the asteroid field to escape the Imperial Navy in ESB) - in fact he is the best non-force user in terms of piloting
- he's a legendary war hero (fighting and commanding - skilled enough to send him on mercenary missions)
- a legendary smuggler (one of the best)
- a legendary thief (even before he really started his career)
- a master of deception (pretty much "respected" in the "underworld"😉
- he's probably the luckiest guy in the entire SW universe
Carth:
- Carth was a war hero of the Mandalorian Wars and is said to be a skilled pilot and superior tactician (we don't know if he was a frontline fighter, a commander or pilot there - at least he was in his 30s at this point - fighting Mandalorians and surviving this for 3 years is impressive)
- after the Mandalorian Wars he participated in the Jedi Civil War being one of the Republic's most skilled commanders
- we don't know how much he participated in Revan's fights (because that's players choice) but we know that he helped to free Bastilla on Taris and he assisted Revan on the Leviathan killing his former commander Karath
- after this he faced another 5 years with fights against the remaining Sith (if you consider KotoR lightside ending as canon because otherwise he's most likely killed by Revan on the Rakatan homeworld)
Well...from what we have seen so far Han does seem to have more experience in combat (Wars, battles, mercenary / intelligence missions) if you consider what he has fought: the Empire (4 years), the Ssi-ruuk, Ysanne Isard (Bacta War), Zsinj, Thrawn, the returned Emperor, Daala and the YV (before Chewie was killed). Hell...he nearly did nothing else than fight people and went on missions for the NR for 20 years of his life where Carth had 11 years of wartime to face from the beginning of the Mandalorian War until the end of KotoR II.
Add his "less military" skills (deception, being a thief and smuggler, his "badassness" and of course his impossible amount of luck) and I think he's able to take Carth although I'm not sure who will win a "straight" fight because they're both very skilled when it comes down to handling blasters.
- at the age of nineteen he together with two of his friends stole a great amount of the Ylesian High Priests private art collection
This proves what? I read the book. It wasn't Han being a supersoldier that did this.
- he was trained to become a soldier and reached the rang of an lieutenant before he was dishonorably discharged from the Imperial Army for helping Chewbacca escape from Imperial slavery; during that time he earned the right to wear the Corellian bloodstripe.
He was in the Imperial navy, and was not a soldier. Also, if Han helping Chewie escape was so dangerous, he would not have been alive when they dishonorably discharged him.
- after doing that he spent 5 years of time smuggling stuff with Chewbacca and was known to be one of the best of his buisness; in this time he destroyed the Corporate Sector Authority's secret prision "Star's End" and a slave trade ring connected with the CSA
Again, this needs to be put into context. This is not "Feat Wars"; this is evaluating and deciding who would win in a fight, not who smuggled the most spice. Sheesh. If smuggling was that hard, there wouldn't be drop outs, losers, and other rabble doing it all the time.
- this is followed by the events during the Galactic Civil War (ANH - ROTJ) where he not only participated in the war against the Empire but did kill several Bounty Hunters that were send after him by the Empire and Jabba the Hutt
Saying Han Solo had more than a very small part in the Galactic Civil War is overglorifying his contribution. Han shuttled rebels, shot Vader when the latter was distracted, was caught and tortured by the Empire, and then lead a strike team to Endor, where the entire battle was 90% PIS and 10% Ewok inspiration.
And again, this establishes nothing.
- after that he was responsible for the fall of the Warlord Zsinj
- he participated in some mercenary missions and did a lot of work for the NR intelligence
- he was present at the Battle of Wayland (resulting in the death of Joruus C'Baoth)
- he managed to escape from the prison on Kessel as well as he managed to escape Admiral Daala
I'll concede this points, simply because I don't know enough about them to say otherwise, though it would be nice if someone indicated where Han Solo depicted actions that put him above Carth in combat instead of Feat Wars, which is becoming all-too-popular around here.
Skill:
- he's piloting skills where outstanding enough to surprise and impress Vader (during the Battle of Yavin and when Han flew into the asteroid field to escape the Imperial Navy in ESB) - in fact he is the best non-force user in terms of piloting
This is a lot of character hype, you do realize. I mean, for Han Solo to be the best non-Force sensitive pilot in a galaxy with billions upon billions upon billions of peoples is a bit of a stretch. Han is good; I don't deny this. In a ship battle I think it'd probably go in his favor. However, I doubt that the Red Baron could beat your average mudcrunching Wehrmact sergeant in combat despite his amazing piloting skills.
- he's a legendary war hero (fighting and commanding - skilled enough to send him on mercenary missions)
Legendary = subjective. Carth is also legendary. This proves nothing. Hell, George Washinton can be considered legendary in the eyes of American historians and I could probably beat his ass.
- a legendary smuggler (one of the best)
Again, this reeks of hyperbole. In a few books that depict Han's earlier years, there are many experienced smugglers that outdo Han and have better contacts, tactics, etc. He learns from them and becomes -very- competent, but what this has to do with anything is beyond me. More Feat wars.
- a legendary thief (even before he really started his career)
Legendary thief? LMFAO... yeah, right. I bet Xizor stayed up late at night wondering if he could sway the legendary Han Solo to steal a purse or two for him. lmao... what a bunch of shit this is...
- a master of deception (pretty much "respected" in the "underworld"😉
Master of Deception = Respect in the underworld? Not exactly. If Han Solo was a "master of deception" he'd have never been caught and almost shot by Boba Fett, Darth Vader and Insert Any Other Baddie Name Here since a master of deception gets caught by no one. Nice try though. Is C-3PO a master of Ewok Lore too? lmao
- he's probably the luckiest guy in the entire SW universe
This is stupid. To factor luck into a battle is stupid.
Well, so far you've concluded that hyperbole and exaggeration holds nothing in a versus thread.
Uh huh. "Han is a gunslinger".
Go watch ANH. Count how many people Han Solo kills with the first shot aside from the horrid Greedo scene.
Now move on to ESB...
ROTJ?
Then come back to me with a total and say "Han's a gunslinger". If he were a dead shot he would be able to hit his target over 80% of the time, especially considering that he has a heavy blaster which blows holes in the insolated walls of the Tatooine space hangar pretty damn big.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Again, this needs to be put into context. This is not "Feat Wars"; this is evaluating and deciding who would win in a fight, not who smuggled the most spice. Sheesh. If smuggling was that hard, there wouldn't be drop outs, losers, and other rabble doing it all the time.
Yes. Smuggling stuff arround while having the Imperial Navy flying around anywhere is an easy job of course. That's why so many smugglers were killed or captured by Imperials.
Saying Han Solo had more than a very small part in the Galactic Civil War is overglorifying his contribution. Han shuttled rebels, shot Vader when the latter was distracted, was caught and tortured by the Empire, and then lead a strike team to Endor, where the entire battle was 90% PIS and 10% Ewok inspiration.
Yes. That it was him who made the Rebels able to destroy both Death Stars actually didn't matter much. By the way - what was Carth doing that greatly aided the Republic in the Wars vs the Mandalorians and the JCW ?
I'll concede this points, simply because I don't know enough about them to say otherwise, though it would be nice if someone indicated where Han Solo depicted actions that put him above Carth in combat instead of Feat Wars, which is becoming all-too-popular around here.
And on the other handside it would be nice to have someone indicating where Carth depicted actions that put him above Han Solo in combat since we basically do not know why he was a War Hero (was it fighting ability ? Tactics ?) and anything he might have done during KotoR is up to gaming experience.
Legendary = subjective. Carth is also legendary. This proves nothing. Hell, George Washinton can be considered legendary in the eyes of American historians and I could probably beat his ass.
Yes. It indicates nothing. Is there any reason for Carth being able to defeat Han in a shoot-out other than "Carth was a legendary war hero" which is according to your own words subjective impression ?
Again, this reeks of hyperbole. In a few books that depict Han's earlier years, there are many experienced smugglers that outdo Han and have better contacts, tactics, etc. He learns from them and becomes -very- competent, but what this has to do with anything is beyond me. More Feat wars.
I know but at the end of his smuggler career he's simply one of if not the best (that's implied in the ANH special edition when Jabba talks to him). But you're right...feat wars.
Master of Deception = Respect in the underworld? Not exactly. If Han Solo was a "master of deception" he'd have never been caught and almost shot by Boba Fett, Darth Vader and Insert Any Other Baddie Name Here since a master of deception gets caught by no one. Nice try though. Is C-3PO a master of Ewok Lore too? lmao
Nice reasoning. The best bounty hunter in the Galaxy and second most powerful being in the Galaxy were the only persons able to catch him - that really totaly questions his deception abilities. That he somehow managed to avoid or kill almost every "famous" bounty hunter in the Galaxy trying to catch him doesn't matter.
This is stupid. To factor luck into a battle is stupid.
Yes ? According to the rules of the SW universe there is no "luck" meaning everything that can be seen as "luck" is either the "will of the force" or "personal force attunement". At least something where Han outclasses Carth.
Originally posted by Deus Ex
lmfaoI like how you skipped the part where you called him a "legendary thief" and I corrected you, Nai. You're getting a bit bad at this... You can't be selective with your rebuttals.
And I like how you skipped my entire last posting to just point at the "legendary thief" thing.
What would you have liked as a comment from me ? "Yes, Janus !" or "You're right, Janus !" or "Man was I dumb thanks for enlighten me, Janus!" or "Let's see - he spend a big time of his youth doing pickpocketing and stole a huge amount of the art collection of Teroenza worth several hundretthousands credits and the private yacht of T'landa Til from a planet controlled by the Hutts which makes him an effective thief."
Pick your favourite one. Print it out. Put it into a nice frame and attach it to the wall next to your computer monitor and don't forget to mark the date in you calendar writing a note into it: "The day I made Nai comment on something he didn't think to be of any pertinence in further discussion."
And if you have some time left after doing it, Your Excellency - and really only if it doesn't affronts your superior intellect - you can (and please note that this is only a pleasing request from one of your totally inferior servants who isn't even worth having you waste a second of your precious free time for him) answer the rest of my posting. Not that I would care if you don't do it.
Submissive enough for your exquisite taste ? 😮💨
Originally posted by Deus Ex
Yes my child. You may go.
Thank you very much.
Nai, it seems like you're getting into arguments with everyone thesedays.
Sure I am. That's the result of being a cynical, egomanic ass having the self-confidence of a half-god and don't care much about others. Don't try this at home kids. 🤣
Meh, it's just how sarcastic and disagreeable he comes off as.... When was the last time Nai and I agreed on a single thing? And of course every time we disagree I have to prepare for ten pages of Online Warfare, and I'm not talkin' Guild Wars action here. Honestly, I'd rather get an HJ from Captain Hook than debate with anyone for more than a few posts. It's tiring, and nothing is ever solved. No one ever goes "Omigawd... you're right! I see the light!" and then we all go back to the Winchester for a pint. Never ever ever happens.
Now, that being said, I like Nai. He's smart and educated and funny. He just pisses me off a lot. But legendary thief? I'm sorry man... I was trying to be nice until that point. Legendary thief is someone you'd never hear of, just because they're -that- good. It's like having a ninja with a battle rifle.