General Grievous

Ush, you are generally bright, but in this case, you are overlooking CANON in the movies themselves.

When Qui-gon encountered darth Maul in TPM, did he tell the jedi council, "i think he was someone who used the dark side of the force?" NO. he said, "i think he was trained in the sith arts" or something to that effect. That perked up everyones interest because of the appearance of the sith possibly had some relationship to the prophecy regarding the chosen on. further, kai adi mundi wanted obiwan and quigon to draw out their attacker, so, as mace windu put it, they could "unravel the mystery of the sith."

Further, the jedi knew there was a sith master and an apprentice, they knew obiwan killed one of them on naboo. Yoda said there are ALWAYS TWO. NO MORE and NO LESS. so at the outset of AOTC, they know there are still TWO sith.

While the jedi beleived Dooku to still be good at the beginning of the movie, they realized his true nature by the end of the movie. Obiwans expression when dooku was interrogating him, and asking for his help in crushing the sith clearly point out two things.

1. that The jedi STILL belevie the Sith are a powerful force behind what is going on.
2. Obiwan suspects Dooku MAY be sith.

Further, the outcome of the battle with Dooku and the fact that the dark side is growing clearly give evidence the jedi feel Dooku is one of these two sith, since they witnessed him in action.

actually, bigsef3... he says "...and he was well trained in the Jedi Arts... My only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord". He did not say Sith Arts.

and on what ground do they know that in AOTC there are two sith??? they killed one yes, but that doesn't mean that with a fingersnap you got a new apprentice... and no matter what happens at the end of the movie they still think that Dooku wasn't THAT bad "lies, deceide... creating mistrust"... but nothing about killing and such!

yers, if you notice is said, SOMETHING LIKE, "i think he was trained in the sith arts" it was NOT a direct quote and i said such. further, you dont get a new sith apprentice with a snap of the finger but 10 years is hardly a snap of the finger.

oh, and you say they didnt think dooku was THAT bad? he was responsible for the death of every jedi that died on geonosis, and were it not for yoda and the clone troopers, would have killed everyone. they do think he is THAT bad, good greif, did we watch the same movie?

You're forgetting that the title Darth implies DARk lord of the siTH, and Dooku is Darth Tyrannus.

while i appreciate your sharing my opinion, it should be pointed out none of the characters know his name is DARTH tyrannus. they dont know tyrannus is dooku at all

even with the "something like" your quote was WAY off, sith and jedi are two opposites

and the idea is that Dooku left 10 years ago and is still good, afterwards they chance it to him being bad but NOT him being a Sith! it's not the same either.

he simply defended himself on geonosis, the jedi provoced him with showing up and budding in on a planet that does not recognise them as a police force. if for his defence lots of jedi died, it's not the point, he defended himself and "his" planet. It's justified

oh, and they don't KNOW it's DARTH!
the only thing they know is that there was "a GUY called Tyrannus" who recruted Jango on one of the moons of Bogden, they didn't call him DARTH Tyrannus

Thankyou for calling me bright, Bigsef... but it is just the simple application of logic- which if you did as well, you would not make the errors you are making.

First of all, that QGJ identified Maul as a Sith is of absolutely no relevance to them knowing whether Dooku is one or not. The reason QGJ identified Maul as a Sith is that a. he was trained and b. he was no Jedi- that only left one option. Dooku, on the other hand, was once a Jedi- so that is the explanation of his training, hence no instant suspicion he is a Sith.

I do not see the numbers of Sith you so capitally quote as being in any way relevant at all. Whether there is currently one or two, they are still looking for them and would be VERY much making capital of it if they had succeeded.

Let me make this clear-

THE JEDI DO NOT KNOW DOOKU IS A SITH

The website confirms this and I would like a good reason as to why that would not be so- I am very wary of contradicting the site without damn good reason.

They may, very well, have Dooku in mind as a suspect- but his identity as a Sith was not blown at any point in the film. That is actually one of the entire plot points of AOTC. Stupidity of the characters does not come into it- it is simply not something thay have any way to know.

And what is completely true is that you are NOT a Sith just because you are a Dark Sider- this is simply logic; you are a Sith if you BELONG to the Sith and that is it.

my point is that you are neither light or dark unless you are a sith or a jedi. if you are not a jedi or a sith, you are simply someone who has force-sensitivity. dooku may have left the jedi, but that doesnt mean he was in "limbo." for example, a person born as a catholic maysay they are "catholic," but they might not have been to church in years. that is WHY the jedi still viewed dooku as being good and couldnt fathom the possibility he was responsible for the assassination attempt on padme, because they viewed him as still being good - a "non-practicing" jedi, if you will.

i do not mean to contradict the website, but as i beleive you have argued before, it is NOT cannon, although this is an instance where i feel it conflicts what seems clear in the movies.

I see absolutely nowhere at any point where the canon even vaguely contradicts it.

If you are not a Jedi or a Sith it does not necessarily mean anything. Even if 100% of force users in the galaxy at this time are Jedi or Sith, it does not mean that Jedi means Light Side user, and Sith means dark side user.. They are simply names of organisations. If Dooku had just falledn to the Dark Side, and not been taken as an apprentice, he would be just that- an ex-Jedi Dark Sider, not a Sith.

i can't believe i forgot to mention this before, the main difference between a wannabee/witch/Rouge or dark jedi or casual dark side user and a sithlord is that the sith create an imbalance in the force. and according to some of the recent clone wars novels and things (again feel free to shout me down), not even jango knew Dooku was a sith, calling him Count Tyrannous. The Jedi really have no evidence that Dooku is a sith other than the fact that he uses the dark side and a red light saber. but as Dooku himself states clone Wars chapter 8 "you wear the trappings of the sith, you fight like the sith...but this can be imitated".

One other thing from that same source, regardless of dark side use, "sith have no fear"

it sounds to me like too many peoples minds have been polluted by the EU. there is no such thing as a "dark jedi" in cannon, any more than there is such a thing as a "light jedi." these movies are simple stories with clearly defined good guys and bad guys. its jedi vs. sith, good vs. evil. its black or its white. there is no grey.

I don't think its as simple as black and white. If there is one constant in this series it is people can change. Anakin started good, went really bad, and in the end went back to the light. Han Solo started indiferent to anyone but himself, and then chose a cause greater then himself. Dooku was once good and now he is bad.... etc. Change is the only constant.

yes, but the characters true color is revealed by the end of the movie. people argue whether dooku is really truly evil, but the movies make it clear he is. there is no grey area in the sense characters do not stay in a grey area. they are not grey characters. they are either black or white, or transitioning between the two.

Originally posted by bigsef3
yes, but the characters true color is revealed by the end of the movie. people argue whether dooku is really truly evil, but the movies make it clear he is. there is no grey area in the sense characters do not stay in a grey area. they are not grey characters. they are either black or white, or transitioning between the two.

I love what this thread has become. But, with all due respect to Bigsef3, "transitioning between the two" would actually be a "gray area".

🙂

corn

Corn is right about the "grey area" being the transition. That being said, let's get back to General Greivous.

Where do all you you think he developed his lightsaber skill/affinity?

Originally posted by schill142
Corn is right about the "grey area" being the transition. That being said, let's get back to General Greivous.

Where do all you you think he developed his lightsaber skill/affinity?

That's easy. He used to be Sifo Dyus.

😄

cornponious

Why does Greivous HAVE to have force powers? A computer can process information much faster than an organic brain. It would be easy to program Greivous to fight as a Jedi or a Sith as he would already be able to mimic the reaction time. Just a thought. Maybe Sidious, seeing the future, had Greivous created as an prototype of Darth Vader. Perhaps?

he was trained by sidious and tyrannus.

Originally posted by Oswald Kenobi
Why does Greivous HAVE to have force powers? A computer can process information much faster than an organic brain. It would be easy to program Greivous to fight as a Jedi or a Sith as he would already be able to mimic the reaction time. Just a thought. Maybe Sidious, seeing the future, had Greivous created as an prototype of Darth Vader. Perhaps?

That was one of my earlier points, if lightsabers are the baddest of weapons and all that was involved in using them was computer reaction time, why would the empire not produce 1000's of saber wielding Grevious types. Or why did not the original droids carry sabers? I think GL is reserving lightsabers for force users, otherwise the mystic becomes common.

While I don't think Sidious saw the future or that Grevious is a prototype, I do think Sidious finds pleasure in turning what was once light into dark. The obvious is Anakin to Vader, another instance is when Luke using the Dark Side to strike down Vader (remember Sidious' laugh?), others could be Sifo to Grevious, and Dooku from a Jedi to an unknowning minion of Sidious' will.