Originally posted by Regret
I was misstating destiny, I was in a hurry answering, and wasn't being as careful with my language as I should have been.
It's all good. 😉
Originally posted by Regret
I was considering the idea of free will and destiny though, and think I can still believe in both. Here is the scenario. God knows all things to a level that he is capable of infinite levels of probability in prediction. We are able to make choices, and behave with our agency, but we are unable to behave in a manner that God would not have predicted, or known that we would. Given this, we are in a sense tied to the path God knows will happen. Does this necessarily limit our free will? I do not think it necessarily does, unless free will is limited given an outside force having a knowledge of future events.
I can imagine and understand if God being the supreme being that he is, can see our choices before we actually make them. Simply because he would be able to see ALL possibilities due to possible omniscience, and then be able to predict our choice simply due to the infinite factors that are involved.
I could buy that.
However, this doesn't fit as Destiny to me. Destiny is a fate or outcome that is undeniable. If God's plan for us is our Destiny, then that means none of us can go AGAINST it. That means that no matter WHAT WE DO, the SAME Destiny will await us...meaning no true choice is involved.
ALSO...if God's plan for us, IS Destiny.... then there would be no such thing as Sin, because Sin is defying God. If God's plan was our Destiny, then we will all go by his plan, regardless of whether or not we want to. There would be no true defiance, because whatever the case God's plan WILL occur....and this renders free will useless, pointless, and actually non existant.
I beleive God's plan coincides with FREE WILL, NOT Destiny. 😉
Originally posted by Regret
I understood this as sarcasm, I just assumed it was being used to gain a response to the statement. I'll respond to the rest following the next quote I use from you.
Okay 😉
Originally posted by Regret
Alright. Were you able to obtain a copy of "The ethics of helping people"? If you were able to you might have a better grasp of my stance on this. I will assume you were unable to.
No, but I will do so as soon as possible. It seems like a VERY interesting read !
Originally posted by Regret
It is a fact that if a parent constantly does things for a child the child will often be retarded (Def. used: Occurring or developing later than desired or expected; delayed) in those areas. An example is my 6 year old plays video games and does not want to learn to read, if I read the instructions to him or tell him what must be done next he will have less need to learn to read, and thus will learn to read later than he would should I not do it for him. This is also true of degradation in some responses. An example of this is those elderly, not all, that are placed in nursing homes and their health declines rapidly. This is, in part, due to the decline in need to do many things themselves. If the nursing home requires the elderly do as much as possible for themselves and assists only when the elderly person is on the verge of failure the elderly person will maintain a higher level of health.
I understand this. But this falls under doing everything FOR the person, doing things for the person that the person CAN do for themselves.
Originally posted by Regret
So, by stepping in and healing those with AIDS, perhaps God would be retarding our medical advancement. By stepping in with hunger and such, perhaps God would be retarding the rest of the worlds ability to increase its humanity.
And so what? Retarding our medical advancement, as if that matters? The very POINT to our medical advancement is to RID of all diseases possible ! If diseases and poor health didn't exist, we wouldn't even NEED medical advancements. So what's the point to there being diseases anyway?
Curing AIDS is something that is not under our power today. We cannot do it as of now, the cure will not exist for a long time. While we await the cure, more and more people suffer and die.
It's not like God would be spoiling us in curing HIV/AIDS himself. Spoiling us would be God doing something that we can do ourselves. We cannot cure Aids ourselves, not right now, and probably not for a very long time.
As for the poverty deal, yes we can definately put a stop to poverty if we all pitched in and did something about it. United States has more than enough money to feed the rest of the poor in this world. United States can forgive the debt that many countries owe, and allow those countries to strenghten themselves and help thier own poor.
In terms of Poverty, YES, there is a LOT we can do, but we're purposely not doing enough. ❌
Originally posted by Regret
I believe that the world is, at present, heading towards a time where it will be comparable to the time immediately prior to the flood in the Bible. Given this, perhaps one of the only things keeping us from reaching that point is the need for us to help those that are hungry and such.
That is purely subjective, and nothing I can truly argue against.
Originally posted by Regret
Also, God created us, perhaps we are the tool created to stave off hunger. Perhaps he has already answered the prayers, but we aren't doing the job we have been given.
This is entirely possible. Then what's stopping us?
Originally posted by Regret
I make the same assumptions you do. I believe that those people do care more about this life than the next. I do not understand what you are saying here: You think a starving beggar who needs to eat and drink gives a crap about your belief in God? Do you think that I think we should preach to them, before we help them? I do not. I think that if we are able to we should help them, immediately. I think that while we house them, while we feed them, while we do whatever, we should, if possible, also be trying to teach them how to maintain themselves. I do not believe that we should be saying, "Come to God and we will feed you."
What I meant was i notice that many Christians, Jews, and Muslims beleive that the next life matters more than this one. You guys have to understand that not everyone beleives this, and that you guys have no right to minimize the value of life that way for everyone.
But as long as you do your part to help out, I have no complaints. 😉
Originally posted by Regret
I think you, in many ways do not understand my beliefs. I would suggest you read my thread describing my beliefs. I don't believe that God needs anything. I don't believe we are in any way "satisfying" (I use this in reference to fulfilling some need of God's) him. My belief is that we are here to learn compassion, to learn to behave in ways that make us eligible for responsibility following this life, to show that we are capable of doing the things God wants us to do. Thus nothing we do here is for God per say. Everything we do is aiding us in some way.
That applies if you do beleive in an Absolutely Passionate God. I would like to as well, but the way so many religious people describe God, and the way the Bible describes God makes God seem like the antithesis of empathy and compassion.
To me, True Love is unconditional and lacks judgement. God's love, according to many religious people's claims, SEEMS to me to be very conditional and absolutely judgemental.
Originally posted by Regret
You use the term superior. I do not believe service goes to the superior person. I do believe that prayers are answered if we understand how to pray in such a way that a prayer will be answered. I am not trying to demean their suffering, I believe that prayer works the same for everyone, suffering or not. Just because someone is in one type of situation than another does not make prayer, or God, change. There is a statement that God is no respecter of persons. It would seem that you believe he should respect the suffering over those that are not. Matthew 19:24 states: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. I think this should lead to the assumption that from God's point of view the rich man needs more help than the suffering one. If probability of entering heaven is the measure of superiority, then the suffering person is the superior.
So you have to lack Earthly goods to get Heavenly goods? Sacrafice one life for another?
Live a Healthy and Abundant Life here on Earth, and live in Hell afterward?
THEN..live a shitty and poor life on Earth, to be worthy of gaining a Heavenly life afterward?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I can imagine and understand if God being the supreme being that he is, can see our choices before we actually make them. Simply because he would be able to see ALL possibilities due to possible omniscience, and then be able to predict our choice simply due to the infinite factors that are involved.I could buy that.
However, this doesn't fit as Destiny to me. Destiny is a fate or outcome that is undeniable. If God's plan for us is our Destiny, then that means none of us can go AGAINST it. That means that no matter WHAT WE DO, the SAME Destiny will await us...meaning no true choice is involved.
ALSO...if God's plan for us, IS Destiny.... then there would be no such thing as Sin, because Sin is defying God. If God's plan was our Destiny, then we will all go by his plan, regardless of whether or not we want to. There would be no true defiance, because whatever the case God's plan WILL occur....and this renders [b]free will
useless, pointless, and actually non existant.I beleive God's plan coincides with FREE WILL, NOT Destiny. 😉 [/B]
That can work for me. I'm not tied to the idea of destiny.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No, but I will do so as soon as possible. It seems like a VERY interesting read !
I thought it was, but then I'm a behavior analyst and he's one of the prominent figures in our field.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I understand this. But this falls under doing everything FOR the person, doing things for the person that the person CAN do for themselves.And so what? Retarding our medical advancement, as if that matters? The very [B]POINT
to our medical advancement is to RID of all diseases possible ! If diseases and poor health didn't exist, we wouldn't even NEED medical advancements. So what's the point to there being diseases anyway?Curing AIDS is something that is not under our power today. We cannot do it as of now, the cure will not exist for a long time. While we await the cure, more and more people suffer and die.
It's not like God would be spoiling us in curing HIV/AIDS himself. Spoiling us would be God doing something that we can do ourselves. We cannot cure Aids ourselves, not right now, and probably not for a very long time.
As for the poverty deal, yes we can definately put a stop to poverty if we all pitched in and did something about it. United States has more than enough money to feed the rest of the poor in this world. United States can forgive the debt that many countries owe, and allow those countries to strenghten themselves and help thier own poor.
In terms of Poverty, YES, there is a LOT we can do, but we're purposely not doing enough. ❌[/B]
In my reference to these things I am referring to mankind as the person, and not referring to individuals. So, medical advancement that will eventually cure aids will probably happen. One of the differences in our views is time frame, I do not view our mortal time frame as necessarily relevant to a God that has eternity as a point of reference for time. Chaos theory also supports possible reasons to not answer these types of answers, we are unable to see the impacts that these "Good" acts would actually have.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This is entirely possible. Then what's stopping us?
Free Will, the inability to see the grand scheme of things, selfishness, a very large list of things is stopping us.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What I meant was i notice that many Christians, Jews, and Muslims beleive that the next life matters more than this one. You guys have to understand that not everyone beleives this, and that you guys have no right to [b]minimize the value of life that way for everyone.But as long as you do your part to help out, I have no complaints. 😉 [/B]
Then it seems that this portion is resolved between us 😉
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That applies if you do beleive in an Absolutely Passionate God. I would like to as well, but the way so many religious people describe God, and the way the Bible describes God makes God seem like the antithesis of empathy and compassion.
One of the greatest differences between mainstream Christianity and Mormons is the interpretation of the Bible. With our interpretation God is viewed in a very different manner. We view God in this way
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
To me, [B]True Love is unconditional and lacks judgement. God's love, according to many religious people's claims, SEEMS to me to be very conditional and absolutely judgemental.[/B]
I believe that God loves unconditionally. My beliefs as to the purpose of this life make our actions relevant in considering God and he will do to aid us. Our actions can limit what he is able to do for us. This is due to his laws he has set for us. I do not believe that God will create any law he will not abide by. This stated, by placing ourselves in a position that the laws God has set for us limit what God can do for us. This is a general statement, and not saying that people with AIDS etc. have placed themselves in this position.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So you have to lack Earthly goods to get Heavenly goods? Sacrafice one life for another?Live a Healthy and Abundant Life here on Earth, and live in Hell afterward?
THEN..live a shitty and poor life on Earth, to be worthy of gaining a Heavenly life afterward?
Not exactly. Need typically leads to more humility than opulence does. I don't think that this reference is absolute in any way. In the Bible it often shows people that do what God says increasing in social stature, although just about as often these people end up becoming full of pride and committing sins. It would seem, from example given in the Bible, that it would be better if God would leave us be and not "bless" us. But at the same time many people in an undesired state of life become bitter and curse God. I would assume, given the reference, it is easier to be proud than it is to be humble.
Originally posted by Regret
That can work for me. I'm not tied to the idea of destiny.
Then we agree here 😉
Originally posted by Regret
I thought it was, but then I'm a behavior analyst and he's one of the prominent figures in our field.
I'll be happy to check this book out ! 🙂
Originally posted by Regret
In my reference to these things I am referring to mankind as the person, and not referring to individuals. So, medical advancement that will eventually cure aids will probably happen. One of the differences in our views is time frame, I do not view our mortal time frame as necessarily relevant to a God that has eternity as a point of reference for time. Chaos theory also supports possible reasons to not answer these types of answers, we are unable to see the impacts that these "Good" acts would actually have.
Regardless of the fact that God's time frame is eternal, while ours is mortal, you are suggesting that God lacks empathy. As if he doesn't know what it feels like to be human....hello, he became a human Jesus, did he not?
How could anything we think or feel be irrelevant to God? Our Creator who loves us so deeply, he would simply IGNORE our point of view????
Chaos Theory supports this yes, IF Chaos Theory is even REAL. You are forgetting that the Chaos Theory goes AGAINST Christian Doctrine, as The Chaos Theory leaves the doors open for the existance of alternate realities while The Bible clearly suggests that what's done is done, and what we do is solid....that there is only ONE LIFE, ONCE CHANGE, and we must do what we must to obey God in this life.
Chaos Theory contradicts your beleif bro 😉
Originally posted by Regret
Free Will, the inability to see the grand scheme of things, selfishness, a very large list of things is stopping us.
This is again infinately debatable, and I'd rather leave it be, and accept your answer as is.
Originally posted by Regret
Then it seems that this portion is resolved between us 😉
Awesome ! 😉
Originally posted by Regret
One of the greatest differences between mainstream Christianity and Mormons is the interpretation of the Bible. With our interpretation God is viewed in a very different manner. We view God in this way
What's the difference though? In terms of God's love, the definition of his love, the unconditionality AND the judgement factor...what's the difference?
Originally posted by Regret
I believe that God loves unconditionally. My beliefs as to the purpose of this life make our actions relevant in considering God and he will do to aid us. Our actions can limit what he is able to do for us. This is due to his laws he has set for us. I do not believe that God will create any law he will not abide by. This stated, by placing ourselves in a position that the laws God has set for us limit what God can do for us. This is a general statement, and not saying that people with AIDS etc. have placed themselves in this position.
What Laws though? The Laws of physicality, our own mental limits? Are there any laws that actually govern Free Will?
Originally posted by Regret
Not exactly. Need typically leads to more humility than opulence does. I don't think that this reference is absolute in any way. In the Bible it often shows people that do what God says increasing in social stature, although just about as often these people end up becoming full of pride and committing sins. It would seem, from example given in the Bible, that it would be better if God would leave us be and not "bless" us. But at the same time many people in an undesired state of life become bitter and curse God. I would assume, given the reference, it is easier to be proud than it is to be humble.
I beg to differ....I beleive it is much much harder to be proud than humble. Do you see the intense lack of self esteem that most people have today? That LACK of individuality that occurs all over this country, not to mention all over the world?
Most people in this world are conformists bro, and to be a willing conformist is to put your pride aside, and just so what everyone else wants you to do, and be what everyone else wants you to be.
Angelina Jolie definately does her part to help fight Povery and Aids, she is rich and beautiful as hell...does she seem to have destructive pride? She seems pretty humble to me, despite having such beauty, power, popularity, influence, and riches !
Bush and Cheney, however, have tons of power. They are the LEAST humble Christians I have ever seen on television 😉
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Regardless of the fact that God's time frame is eternal, while ours is mortal, you are suggesting that God lacks empathy. As if he doesn't know what it feels like to be human....hello, he became a human Jesus, did he not?How could anything we think or feel be irrelevant to God? Our Creator who loves us so deeply, he would simply IGNORE our point of view????
Originally posted by Regret
In my reference to these things I am referring to mankind as the person, and not referring to individuals. So, medical advancement that will eventually cure aids will probably happen. One of the differences in our views is time frame, I do not view our mortal time frame as necessarily relevant to a God that has eternity as a point of reference for time.
In my statement time is referring to the amount of time it will take for our medical advance, not to our period of individual existence. So my reference to time was in regards to retarding medical advancement, not to an individual and that individual's suffering.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Chaos Theory supports this yes, IF Chaos Theory is even REAL. You are forgetting that the Chaos Theory goes AGAINST Christian Doctrine, as The Chaos Theory leaves the doors open for the existance of alternate realities while The Bible clearly suggests that what's done is done, and what we do is solid....that there is only ONE LIFE, ONCE CHANGE, and we must do what we must to obey God in this life.Chaos Theory contradicts your beleif bro 😉
I disagree that the idea of alternate realities conflicts with the Bible in any way. I would say that a prophecy, if avoided constituted a possible view of an alternate reality. I do not believe man has the ability to "jump" realities, and as such what we do is in a sense solid, we must do what we must to obey God in this life.
Also, Chaos Theory does not necessitate alternate realities.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This is again infinately debatable, and I'd rather leave it be, and accept your answer as is.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What's the difference though? In terms of God's love, the definition of his love, the unconditionality AND the judgement factor...what's the difference?
Now, answering this one will probably get me crucified by the mainstream Christians on here 😉
In our view God wants us to be like he is. He is literally a father figure to Man. God has more of a purpose for man than to end up somewhere doing nothing.
In my opinion God is a hypocrite according to every non-Mormon Christian religion I have studied. From what I have read and experienced in discussions with Catholic priests, Baptist ministers, Protestant preachers, Methodist pastors, born-again Christian evangelists, non-denominational Christians, it seems that God is a deity that sits on a throne amused by our antics, casting down subjective commandments, punishing selectively, and requires praise constantly. I do not understand how the love that non-Mormon Christians claim god has is evidenced by their view of God. It seems to me that, according to my knowledge of their beliefs, Christ was a means to bring as many people back as possible so that heaven would have someone to sing God's praises, and for little else.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What Laws though? The Laws of physicality, our own mental limits? Are there any laws that actually govern Free Will?
My view of this belief is that he will abide by all the laws we are subjected to. I do qualify this with the statement that God knows everything, so many laws could possibly be manipulated in ways we are unaware of.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beg to differ....I beleive it is much much harder to be proud than humble. Do you see the intense lack of self esteem that most people have today?
Lack of self esteem should not be confused with humility. Self esteem is the assessment of a comparison with how one is with one wants to be. Humility is a meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit. Humility is being not arrogant or prideful. Humility is showing deferential or submissive respect. Humility is unpretentious.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That LACK of individuality that occurs all over this country, not to mention all over the world?Most people in this world are conformists bro, and to be a willing conformist is to put your pride aside, and just so what everyone else wants you to do, and be what everyone else wants you to be.
Conformity, also, does not necessitate humility. Being conformist merely protects your pride. It makes it so that no one will attack that pride. Some people are humble, and as such become conformist, but conforming still does not necessitate humility.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Angelina Jolie definately does her part to help fight Povery and Aids, she is rich and beautiful as hell...does she seem to have destructive pride? She seems pretty humble to me, despite having such beauty, power, popularity, influence, and riches !Bush and Cheney, however, have tons of power. They are the LEAST humble Christians I have ever seen on television 😉
I don't know if these people are humble or not. I would probably agree with you on Bush and Cheney. I do not know whether Angelina Jolie is humble or not. I would have to say that selling the rights to publish pictures of your baby does not sound humble, but then maybe the motives don't necessarily contradict a humble attitude.
I may have stated hastily that one is easier than the other. But then on here I oftentimes am overly hasty.
It seems we have increased our common understanding a bit since our earlier posts, perhaps it will continue.
Originally posted by Regret
In my statement time is referring to the amount of time it will take for our medical advance, not to our period of individual existence. So my reference to time was in regards to retarding medical advancement, not to an individual and that individual's suffering.
But again, that is suggesting that the time thats endured for the medical advancement is greater than or superior to the individual time that a person suffers...you may not realize it bro, but ur words suggest that the time each individual suffers is irrelevant to God.
Originally posted by Regret
I disagree that the idea of alternate realities conflicts with the Bible in any way. I would say that a prophecy, if avoided constituted a possible view of an alternate reality. I do not believe man has the ability to "jump" realities, and as such what we do is in a sense solid, we must do what we must to obey God in this life.Alternate Realities definately do. The Bible suggests one universe, one world, one life, one chance to make it right. Alternate Realities MEANS that every choice that we could ever make, WAS MADE....the aspect of ourselves that is the present "us" is living in ONE of those numerous alternate realities.
Alternate realities would also suggest alternate Hells and alternate Heavens 😉 , if in fact Heaven and Hell existed.
I do not beleive man has the ability to jump realities either, but if alternate realities do exist, then that means we exist in multiple possibilities, mulitipe lives, not just this one.
Again, our philosophies are different. To me the good of life is not serving God, the good of life is serving other people and animals. To serve God is to serve a unneeding superior, to serve each other is to serve those who really need service 😉
[QUOTE=6730178]Originally posted by Regret
[B]Also, Chaos Theory does not necessitate alternate realities.
It sort of does bro.....The Chaos Theory presents the idea that one actions leads to an infinity of other reactions. That one little grain in time determines the outcome of an entire future. If one of those actions did not occur, then another existance would be. Another existance, meaning another reality, hence suggesting the possibility of alternate realities for different sets of actions or choices made and done. 😉
.
Originally posted by Regret
Now, answering this one will probably get me crucified by the mainstream Christians on here 😉
LOL any pun intended? 😆
Originally posted by Regret
In our view God wants us to be like he is. He is literally a father figure to Man. God has more of a purpose for man than to end up somewhere doing nothing.
You seem to be thinking in terms of black and white. As if there are only TWO choices: Serve God, or Do nothing. There are infinite things we can do with our lives, "service to God" is only one of infinity options in living our lives. How can you not understand that?
Originally posted by Regret
In my opinion God is a hypocrite according to every non-Mormon Christian religion I have studied. From what I have read and experienced in discussions with Catholic priests, Baptist ministers, Protestant preachers, Methodist pastors, born-again Christian evangelists, non-denominational Christians, it seems that God is a deity that sits on a throne amused by our antics, casting down subjective commandments, punishing selectively, and requires praise constantly. I do not understand how the love that non-Mormon Christians claim god has is evidenced by their view of God. It seems to me that, according to my knowledge of their beliefs, Christ was a means to bring as many people back as possible so that heaven would have someone to sing God's praises, and for little else.
I agree. I did not know you were Mormon. What is your idea of God's love then? How does it differ from the stereotype God, if you still beleive in Hell?
Originally posted by Regret
My view of this belief is that he will abide by all the laws we are subjected to. I do qualify this with the statement that God knows everything, so many laws could possibly be manipulated in ways we are unaware of.
Then what are Miracles? If God abides by the laws that we are subject to, then how do extraordinary things that defy reality happen?
Originally posted by Regret
Lack of self esteem should not be confused with humility. Self esteem is the assessment of a comparison with how one is with one wants to be. Humility is a meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit. Humility is being not arrogant or prideful. Humility is showing deferential or submissive respect. Humility is unpretentious.
Nope. Self Esteem is more than that. Self Esteem is confidense. True Self Esteem is how much the person appreciates himself or herself. Self Esteem is the strength that one takes from loving oneself and knowing that others love him/her as well.
As for Humility.....maybe I was off. You can be humble and confident at the asme time. But you can ALSO being proud and humble at the same time, well proud but modest.
To me, pride isn't a bad thing. ARROGANCE is...pride is thinking highly of oneself. Arrogance is thinking one is SUPERIOR to another. There's a major difference.
Originally posted by Regret
Conformity, also, does not necessitate humility. Being conformist merely protects your pride. It makes it so that no one will attack that pride. Some people are humble, and as such become conformist, but conforming still does not necessitate humility.
In a way it does bro. Conformity protects your pride? NO...it protects your reputation and social life. NOT your pride.....you have to SWALLOW your pride to follow someone else, and just "go with the flow". It takes massive PRIDE to be an individual, and to stand up for what you think is right.
Originally posted by Regret
I don't know if these people are humble or not. I would probably agree with you on Bush and Cheney. I do not know whether Angelina Jolie is humble or not. I would have to say that selling the rights to publish pictures of your baby does not sound humble, but then maybe the motives don't necessarily contradict a humble attitude.
I agree. 🙂
Originally posted by Regret
I may have stated hastily that one is easier than the other. But then on here I oftentimes am overly hasty.
It's alright.
Originally posted by Regret
It seems we have increased our common understanding a bit since our earlier posts, perhaps it will continue.
Yes, i am enjoying it. You are obviously a very intelligent person, and it's been more than a pleasure debating with you. I wish for it to continue as long as possible 😉
Sorry Ali, I didn't see your post before I finished this 😛
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But again, that is suggesting that the time thats endured for the medical advancement is greater than or superior to the individual time that a person suffers...you may not realize it bro, but ur words suggest that the time each individual suffers is irrelevant to God.
I guess that, in my opinion, there are times when the individual does suffer to serve a larger purpose. From the view I believe is probable, there are instances when an individual's suffering will be necessary. I think that perhaps my view is similar to what you are saying. The difference between your statement and my view is that in my view the suffering of the individual is not irrelevant to God, but endured by God might be the better term.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It sort of does bro.....The Chaos Theory presents the idea that one actions leads to an infinity of other reactions. That one little grain in time determines the outcome of an entire future. If one of those actions did not occur, then another existance would be. Another existance, meaning another reality, hence suggesting the possibility of alternate realities for different sets of actions or choices made and done. 😉
Perhaps, I do not know enough about Chaos theory to argue. All the same, if Chaos theory ends up being a fact, I still do not see how that effects the overall statement of God in the Bible. If he is God, then somehow he works with it. The LDS Church (Mormons) has stated that our beliefs will fall in line with scientific facts, the issue for us is separating fact from pure inference (e.g. If evolution is a scientific fact, then that is a process that God may have used to create various species. On the other hand, such things as psychology, and speculative areas of science are still iffy.)
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LOL any pun intended? 😆
Very much so 😉
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You seem to be thinking in terms of black and white. As if there are only TWO choices: Serve God, or Do nothing. There are infinite things we can do with our lives, "service to God" is only one of infinity options in living our lives. How can you not understand that?
In my statement "God has more of a purpose for man than to end up somewhere doing nothing." I referred to the afterlife/heaven. In heaven most religions have this place where people have no purpose than to either do something pleasurable, in the sense that we view things as pleasurable now, or they sit around praising God in some way.
We believe that heaven is just a point on the time line of our existence. We believe in what is termed "eternal progression" or in a gross description an "eternal evolution." First there was some material substance, we term intelligence or "the Light of Truth". God organized this into our spirits. God then created our bodies and placed the spirits in them. We then die. At some point resurrection comes (around the point when Christ returns, and during the period following.) We receive a body equal to the law we lived by during our mortal period. We then move on to a realm where, if we lived in a manner that supports the ability to, we continue to progress/evolve infinitely.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I agree. I did not know you were Mormon. What is your idea of God's love then? How does it differ from the stereotype God, if you still beleive in Hell?
We don't really have a Hell. There is a place where Satan and his devils will go, but it is near impossible for a man to get there. To get there a man must have a "perfect knowledge" of God and Christ and then deny them.
God's love is a father's love, as I stated in an earlier post. My belief is that God would like us to do better than we do. I believe that God probably mourns constantly because, while he knows how we will behave here, he still wishes we would be better.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then what are Miracles? If God abides by the laws that we are subject to, then how do extraordinary things that defy reality happen?
I believe that miracles are scientifically based. I also believe that, given the level of knowledge God has, we will probably never reach a solution to how most miracles occurred. There is already a lot of evidence suggesting that various miracles of the Bible could have occurred naturally. I believe that this only supports my views on the subject.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Nope. Self Esteem is more than that. Self Esteem is confidense. True Self Esteem is how much the person appreciates himself or herself. Self Esteem is the strength that one takes from loving oneself and knowing that others love him/her as well.
You may be right, self-esteem may be more, I was going by the definition I learned in my psych courses. All the same, I do not believe that low self-esteem is equivalent to humility.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As for Humility.....maybe I was off. You can be humble and confident at the asme time. But you can ALSO being proud and humble at the same time, well proud but modest.To me, pride isn't a bad thing. ARROGANCE is...pride is thinking highly of oneself. Arrogance is thinking one is SUPERIOR to another. There's a major difference.
I agree. I was considering the pride I have in my children and their accomplishments. When my son hits a home run, the feeling of pride I get is not, imo, a sin. Now if the feeling I have leads to a thought that my son is better than his son, then it is leading to a sin. I think there are good forms of pride. I think God himself stated a similar type of pride:
"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased "
seems to be the type of pride I think we are talking about.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
In a way it does bro. Conformity protects your pride? NO...it protects your reputation and social life. NOT your pride.....you have to SWALLOW your pride to follow someone else, and just "go with the flow". It takes massive PRIDE to be an individual, and to stand up for what you think is right.
I don't believe that reputation is something you would care about if you were truly humble. The conformity I feel comes when you are to proud to allow yourself the ostracism that might occur by being an individual. But then I think it could go both ways. I think that depending on the person they may conform due to pride or conform due to humility, they may stand up as an individual because of their pride or perhaps because they aren't held back by a fear of damaged pride.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, i am enjoying it. You are obviously a very intelligent person, and it's been more than a pleasure debating with you. I wish for it to continue as long as possible 😉
As long as I have the time, and the discussions maintain my interest, I'll probably stay here.
Here's the link to the thread I started to discuss my beliefs on the afterlife and such, don't remember how much more is there that I didn't place in this post.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It's all good. 😉I can imagine and understand if God being the supreme being that he is, can see our choices before we actually make them. Simply because he would be able to see ALL possibilities due to possible omniscience, and then be able to predict our choice simply due to the infinite factors that are involved.
I could buy that.
However, this doesn't fit as Destiny to me. Destiny is a fate or outcome that is undeniable. If God's plan for us is our Destiny, then that means none of us can go AGAINST it. That means that no matter WHAT WE DO, the SAME Destiny will await us...meaning no true choice is involved.
ALSO...if God's plan for us, IS Destiny.... then there would be no such thing as Sin, because Sin is defying God. If God's plan was our Destiny, then we will all go by his plan, regardless of whether or not we want to. There would be no true defiance, because whatever the case God's plan WILL occur....and this renders [b]free will
useless, pointless, and actually non existant.I beleive God's plan coincides with FREE WILL, NOT Destiny. 😉
Okay 😉
No, but I will do so as soon as possible. It seems like a VERY interesting read !
I understand this. But this falls under doing everything FOR the person, doing things for the person that the person CAN do for themselves.
And so what? Retarding our medical advancement, as if that matters? The very POINT to our medical advancement is to RID of all diseases possible ! If diseases and poor health didn't exist, we wouldn't even NEED medical advancements. So what's the point to there being diseases anyway?
Curing AIDS is something that is not under our power today. We cannot do it as of now, the cure will not exist for a long time. While we await the cure, more and more people suffer and die.
It's not like God would be spoiling us in curing HIV/AIDS himself. Spoiling us would be God doing something that we can do ourselves. We cannot cure Aids ourselves, not right now, and probably not for a very long time.
As for the poverty deal, yes we can definately put a stop to poverty if we all pitched in and did something about it. United States has more than enough money to feed the rest of the poor in this world. United States can forgive the debt that many countries owe, and allow those countries to strenghten themselves and help thier own poor.
In terms of Poverty, YES, there is a LOT we can do, but we're purposely not doing enough. ❌
That is purely subjective, and nothing I can truly argue against.
This is entirely possible. Then what's stopping us?
What I meant was i notice that many Christians, Jews, and Muslims beleive that the next life matters more than this one. You guys have to understand that not everyone beleives this, and that you guys have no right to minimize the value of life that way for everyone.
But as long as you do your part to help out, I have no complaints. 😉
That applies if you do beleive in an Absolutely Passionate God. I would like to as well, but the way so many religious people describe God, and the way the Bible describes God makes God seem like the antithesis of empathy and compassion.
To me, True Love is unconditional and lacks judgement. God's love, according to many religious people's claims, SEEMS to me to be very conditional and absolutely judgemental.
So you have to lack Earthly goods to get Heavenly goods? Sacrafice one life for another?
Live a Healthy and Abundant Life here on Earth, and live in Hell afterward?
THEN..live a shitty and poor life on Earth, to be worthy of gaining a Heavenly life afterward? [/B]
A great analogy Lord Urizen, I put in in this context:
God being all knowing has watched the movie already called life. What we do today has not changed the movie in any way. Our choices and decisions are already in the movie. If we say, "Hey, why should I do anything because it won't change anything." The fact is, that whatever we do, "Is the movie".
Understand me?
I haven't read all the long posts but, if god already knows whats going to happen, like a movie, then that is called predestination........nothing you could do could ever would change that, and that would totally do away with free will..........
I believe that what we would call god is something much much bigger, and shouldn't even be called god because that word "god" has gotten a bad rap.............It may know, but would do nothing to hinder what you want to create since it is the creation of all, including ITS creation done in ITS likeness......and in saying so, we are also creators.........We create our lives, thoughts, which btw becomes reality if you study psychology, and quantum physics (in some fields)........We are the ones that make our own destiny, but yet in saying that, we don't know the life in between lives that we may have made decisions that would affect our lives or experiences here.........There are many things we just don't know, but to base things on just one source or book is doing more harm than good if you look at how it was put together.
Wow.........what a run on sentence..........
GOing off debbies point: if this was a movie, it was already made...meaning that we are already dead and of no further consequence.
A more accurate description would be a play or live preformance, since it is currently going on. But, in a play, the actors have free will, because thier actions are not immortalized on film, leading to the refutation of your point that are choices and decisions are already in the movie.