Originally posted by Mider
Only TOAA has a chance IMO
Mider you do realise TOAA is Marvels representation of God dont you? That sounded so stupid 🙄
Im fully aware of what AM did and is capable of. Yeah he could absorb the energy of universes to add to his own power and blah blah blah. But in the end he got taken out by a single universe. The Pre C Dc one. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown taps into a force that is suggested in the comics to be an incarnation of TOAA. Whether you wish to believe that or not. However what is actually stated in the comics and is fact about the force is that it is the primal force of creation(Uncanny Xmen 137) responsible for the creation of not only the universe but existence. This is also supported by recent issues of FF which states that the Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of the abstract entities as it creates each universe. Eternity also calls it the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death. In the natural scheme of things the force creates everything and then destroys all that is.
Jean as the top phoenix avatar if need be for the sake of existence can draw on however much of that power is necessary to safeguard existence. AM is very powerful and can absorb the power of universes as he defeats them. Jean can draw upon and harness a force that created and is one with all of creation. He would be no match for Jean.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mider you do realise TOAA is Marvels representation of God dont you? That sounded so stupid 🙄Im fully aware of what AM did and is capable of. Yeah he could absorb the energy of universes to add to his own power and blah blah blah. But in the end he got taken out by a single universe. The Pre C Dc one. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown taps into a force that is suggested in the comics to be an incarnation of TOAA. Whether you wish to believe that or not. However what is actually stated in the comics and is fact about the force is that it is the primal force of creation(Uncanny Xmen 137) responsible for the creation of not only the universe but existence. This is also supported by recent issues of FF which states that the Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of the abstract entities as it creates each universe. Eternity also calls it the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death. In the natural scheme of things the force creates everything and then destroys all that is.
Jean as the top phoenix avatar if need be for the sake of existence can draw on however much of that power is necessary to safeguard existence. AM is very powerful and can absorb the power of universes as he defeats them. Jean can draw upon and harness a force that created and is one with all of creation. He would be no match for Jean.
Eternity might beat him , Thanos with IG will beat him
LT will wave his hand and bye bye monitor.
it's not really fair comparing the new cosmics with AM. galacticstorm is right when he says it took only one universe to stop him - but that universe was safeguarded by the monitor's power - a power that was nearly equal to AM's own. based on the recent revelations about phoenix, maybe she could stop him because her power appears to be multiversal. but then, if she IS a force of creation (ie the power that created the multiverse) don't forget AM possessed the power to ALTER that initial primal force. in essence, transposing that power into marvel terms, he'd be able to theoretically affect/change the phoenix force itself.
abstracts like eternity, infinity, et al, have zero chance against him. eternity represents the life force of ONE universe. AM absorbed COUNTLESS universes - or, in effect, countless eternities! LT couldn't wave his hand, kg. LT, like spectre did (precrisis spectre basically WAS LT) could make a fight of it because he too is multiversal. that's the thing here - AM came within a whisper of wiping out the MULTIVERSE!!!! essentially he did so, though what was left was not what he was after. no one in marvel (aside from perhaps phoenix's more recent actions) has ever done anything on that scale. NO ONE. and i suspect no one ever will.
ps - as far as TOAA - is he also multiversal? or does each universe have an incarnation, like each has an eternity? if so, TOAA is toast. if, like LT he IS multiversal, then perhaps he COULD defeat AM) i also don't know if thanos w/IG would beat him. i thought the gems were incarnations of power for THIS universe. at least according to their origins.
Originally posted by leonidas
it's not really fair comparing the new cosmics with AM. galacticstorm is right when he says it took only one universe to stop him - but that universe was safeguarded by the monitor's power - a power that was nearly equal to AM's own. based on the recent revelations about phoenix, maybe she could stop him because her power appears to be multiversal. but then, if she IS a force of creation (ie the power that created the multiverse) don't forget AM possessed the power to ALTER that initial primal force. in essence, transposing that power into marvel terms, he'd be able to theoretically affect/change the phoenix force itself.abstracts like eternity, infinity, et al, have zero chance against him. eternity represents the life force of ONE universe. AM absorbed COUNTLESS universes - or, in effect, countless eternities! LT couldn't wave his hand, kg. LT, like spectre did (precrisis spectre basically WAS LT) could make a fight of it because he too is multiversal. that's the thing here - AM came within a whisper of wiping out the MULTIVERSE!!!! essentially he did so, though what was left was not what he was after. no one in marvel (aside from perhaps phoenix's more recent actions) has ever done anything on that scale. NO ONE. and i suspect no one ever will.
ps - as far as TOAA - is he also multiversal? or does each universe have an incarnation, like each has an eternity? if so, TOAA is toast. if, like LT he IS multiversal, then perhaps he COULD defeat AM)
Eternity is a living universe , with infinite power.
DC universe is just that universe (not an entity monitor)
Anti monitor is a Universe (aniti) LT would own him like he would Eternity or any other universes.
Just cuz Spectre failed doesn’t mean LT will , why should he?
Spectre has lost against foes that are peace of shit.
Spectre is as strong as god wants him to be
Originally posted by leonidas
ps - as far as TOAA - is he also multiversal? or does each universe have an incarnation, like each has an eternity? if so, TOAA is toast. if, like LT he IS multiversal, then perhaps he COULD defeat AM) i also don't know if thanos w/IG would beat him. i thought the gems were incarnations of power for THIS universe. at least according to their origins.
TAOO = Kgkg = GOD 😄
Power over everything God is the creator he would loose against Anti-monitor ? lol
LT serves TAOO and he will easily wave his hand and you know 🙂
At the end of day. The Phoenix is the force that creates everything in existence. It is a multiversal force and always has been. It is one of the most powerful forces in any comic book. AntiMonitor was born from a universe. The kind phoenix creates an infinite amount of. He seems to me like a rogue eternity that went around plundering other universes and absorbing their powers. That is very powerful i respect that. However that is nothing compared to the Phoenix force and its most powerful avatar Jean. Think how many universes there are in the multiverse. Theres potentially billions. The force creates billions of eternities basically. Jean exists outside of space and time in the white hot room where all existences universes are represented as small spheres of energy which she can hold in her hand and decide its fate like it is nothing. From here the avatars survey the omniverse and can see potential outcomes. That is how it is decided when the avatars should enter our plane of existence and act. The power to create is far beyond the power to destroy. Phoenix creates all that is. Anti Monitor was born of a universe due to Kronas tamperings. The phoenix is sooo beyond the likes of AM its not even funny.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mider you do realise TOAA is Marvels representation of God dont you? That sounded so stupid 🙄Im fully aware of what AM did and is capable of. Yeah he could absorb the energy of universes to add to his own power and blah blah blah. But in the end he got taken out by a single universe. The Pre C Dc one. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown taps into a force that is suggested in the comics to be an incarnation of TOAA. Whether you wish to believe that or not. However what is actually stated in the comics and is fact about the force is that it is the primal force of creation(Uncanny Xmen 137) responsible for the creation of not only the universe but existence. This is also supported by recent issues of FF which states that the Phoenix Force is responsible for the creation of the abstract entities as it creates each universe. Eternity also calls it the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death. In the natural scheme of things the force creates everything and then destroys all that is.
Jean as the top phoenix avatar if need be for the sake of existence can draw on however much of that power is necessary to safeguard existence. AM is very powerful and can absorb the power of universes as he defeats them. Jean can draw upon and harness a force that created and is one with all of creation. He would be no match for Jean.
Well said.
"no one in marvel (aside from perhaps phoenix's more recent actions) has ever done anything on that scale. NO ONE. and i suspect no one ever will."
As i said before. The power to create is far greater than the power to destroy. AM went around destroying universes and absorbing their power wow. 🙄
You wanna hear a true example of power? The Phoenix created all that is. The multiverse. It linked the multiverse together by projecting a gateway through its entirety. Its avatar Jean has held together the multiverse as it was coming apart at the seams and healed it all. Its avatars survey existence and have at their disposal the power to create or destroy universes on a whim and hold them in the palm of their hand as if they were nothing. They exist beyond time and space only choosing to come down into our plane of existence when something needs to be healed or destroyed for the sake of existence. AM is a being of DC's multiverse who went around absorbing the power of all the universes around him. Powerful as that is that pales in comparison to the Phoenix. That is quite obvious. Also Phoenix was created back in 1979 she is far from a new cosmic Leo.
<<Think how many universes there are in the multiverse. Theres potentially billions. The force creates billions of eternities basically.>>
exactly. it's the same in dc. and AM absorbed ALL of them save one.
<<The phoenix is sooo beyond the likes of AM its not even funny.>>
the force itself may be, but the power AM came to wield puts him in that class. origins don't matter - power matters. and the phoenix force (as ridiculous as the upgrades have been) is, as i said earlier, likely the only force capable of beating him.
<<Eternity is a living universe , with infinite power.
DC universe is just that universe (not an entity monitor)
Anti monitor is a Universe (aniti) LT would own him like he would Eternity or any other universes.
Just cuz Spectre failed doesn’t mean LT will , why should he?
Spectre has lost against foes that are peace of shit.
Spectre is as strong as god wants him to be>>
kg, you're not getting the 'multiverse' part of this equation. let's see if i can explain better. in every 'what if' book ever written, the universe that that story takes place in has a version of our eternity. all the 'what ifs' - billions upon billions of them - form the multiverse. as i said - AM essentially absorbed the power of billions and billions of eternities. like phoenix LT's origins make him far above what the AM was born as, but AM made himself greater than his origin and put himself in LT's class. like phoenix, LT is a multiversal force. go into any 'what if' universe, and the LT in THAT universe will be the same as the LT in OUR universe. that's the difference between LT and eternity and why LT judges disputes between ALL the eternities. it does NOT (necessarily) mean however, that if every eternity in the multiverse teamed up to battle LT, that LT could beat them all. his powers are far greater than any of them - but greater than ALL of them?? hmmm . . .
as far as TOAA. if it really is marvel's version of god, then obviously it too permeates the multiverse, and more - supercedes it. so clearly TOAA could beat AM and any other creature that ever has or will exist and TOAA should never be brought up in any dispute.
"the force itself may be, but the power AM came to wield puts him in that class. origins don't matter - power matters. and the phoenix force (as ridiculous as the upgrades have been) is, as i said earlier, likely the only force capable of beating him."
You really dont know much about the phoenix situation do u? The phoenix as originally intended back in 1979 was the primal force of creation second only to TOAA(God). Chris C suggested throughout Uncanny Xmen and Classic Xmen that the phoenix was an incarnation of TOAA in our plane of existence. Jean became one with this force creating phoenix. Jean was Phoenix back then. It was created when Jean burned up in re-entry and she became one with everything as a being of pure thought. TOAA as suggested joined with her at this point and she reformed creating phoenix. Jean was actually dark phoenix.
The phoenix got retconned in '86'. This is when it became a separate being and phoenix wasnt jean grey anymore but a force all on its own which took people as hosts.
The phoenix/jean situation has now reverted to how it was originally. Grant M saw to that. Now the situation is that certain people are born with phoenix potential as the ultimate expression of their mutant powers and they must transcend our plane of existence(usually by dying) and they are then reborn into it as a phoenix avatar.
The power of phoenix has never been changed, been upgraded or retconned in its existence. Only its origins and its relationship with jean and other avatars. However the mess created by the retcon has now been rectified.
You know Galacticstorm you pick up one one X-men comic and you think you know it all Jean Gray was defeated by the X-men im so sure She would be able to defeat the Anti-Monitor by Herself oh and did you forget Her being eaten by The Goblin Force you always talk down to everyone in here as if you know so much just state your ****ing rebuttle and stfu no one shoudl have to put up with your childish insults PF being reconned is pathetic its a force it needs Avatars to function and if the Anti-Monitor showed up it would be destroyed and NO ETERNITY DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE IG DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE LT DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE ANTI-MONITOR DESTORYED MORE THEN ONE UNIVERSE HOW THE HELL DOES ETERNITY BEAT HIM THE IG HAS POWER OVER ONE UNIVERSE AT A TIME SO DOES LT LT'S GREATEST FEAT IS BEING ABLE TO DESTROY A WHOLE UNIVERSE THATS IT and the Pre-crisis universe had prep time have you ever heard of that? PF cant beat everyone and i dont care what any new X-men comics say from what ive witnessed time and time again the Pheonix Force is not as powerful that it would rival Eternity oh and Galacticstorm you made up shit about The Beyonder calling the PF its almost equal or rival ive read Secret Wars II more then once The Beyonder ***** slaped The PF with out even breaking a sweak and never stated it being more powerful then He was He was never afraid of it He didnt just attack it He walked up to it and just grabed Her making Her go back to Her normal transformation if you knew anything youd know that the orginal Beyonder has powers SEVERAL times that of the multiverse meaning that even TOAA would not be able to handle the original Beyonder thus He was reconned.
Originally posted by Mider
You know Galacticstorm you pick up one one X-men comic and you think you know it all Jean Gray was defeated by the X-men im so sure She would be able to defeat the Anti-Monitor by Herself oh and did you forget Her being eaten by The Goblin Force you always talk down to everyone in here as if you know so much just state your ****ing rebuttle and stfu no one shoudl have to put up with your childish insults PF being reconned is pathetic its a force it needs Avatars to function and if the Anti-Monitor showed up it would be destroyed and NO ETERNITY DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE IG DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE LT DOESNT HAVE A CHANCE THE ANTI-MONITOR DESTORYED MORE THEN ONE UNIVERSE HOW THE HELL DOES ETERNITY BEAT HIM THE IG HAS POWER OVER ONE UNIVERSE AT A TIME SO DOES LT LT'S GREATEST FEAT IS BEING ABLE TO DESTROY A WHOLE UNIVERSE THATS IT and the Pre-crisis universe had prep time have you ever heard of that? PF cant beat everyone and i dont care what any new X-men comics say from what ive witnessed time and time again the Pheonix Force is not as powerful that it would rival Eternity oh and Galacticstorm you made up shit about The Beyonder calling the PF its almost equal or rival ive read Secret Wars II more then once The Beyonder ***** slaped The PF with out even breaking a sweak and never stated it being more powerful then He was He was never afraid of it He didnt just attack it He walked up to it and just grabed Her making Her go back to Her normal transformation if you knew anything youd know that the orginal Beyonder has powers SEVERAL times that of the multiverse meaning that even TOAA would not be able to handle the original Beyonder thus He was reconned.
Most Avatars at G's level (at full power) or creator well lower avatars anyway.
Crown will be much higher since it has shown to have greater power
The thing is Phoenix Force is very vague the writers mix it up.
In the new Phoenix she is just an Entity like Death no more.
And as for LT - has control over the multiverse
And Marvel isn’t very clear on it’s level
In Secret wars: Death, Eternity, chaos etc were seem as the strongest in the Multi-Verse (not universe)
Anti-Monitor can't do shit. - He beats dead universes. WOW
Anti-monitor didn't beat countless Eternity he defeated Universe (Eternity can act fight back)
Were the Universe Anti-monitor living? able to act? NO
As for Spectre he couldn’t beat Parallax either so
If he can’t do it neither can LT argument is just BS
Originally posted by leonidas
it's not really fair comparing the new cosmics with AM. galacticstorm is right when he says it took only one universe to stop him - but that universe was safeguarded by the monitor's power - a power that was nearly equal to AM's own. based on the recent revelations about phoenix, maybe she could stop him because her power appears to be multiversal. but then, if she IS a force of creation (ie the power that created the multiverse) don't forget AM possessed the power to ALTER that initial primal force. in essence, transposing that power into marvel terms, he'd be able to theoretically affect/change the phoenix force itself.abstracts like eternity, infinity, et al, have zero chance against him. eternity represents the life force of ONE universe. AM absorbed COUNTLESS universes - or, in effect, countless eternities! LT couldn't wave his hand, kg. LT, like spectre did (precrisis spectre basically WAS LT) could make a fight of it because he too is multiversal. that's the thing here - AM came within a whisper of wiping out the MULTIVERSE!!!! essentially he did so, though what was left was not what he was after. no one in marvel (aside from perhaps phoenix's more recent actions) has ever done anything on that scale. NO ONE. and i suspect no one ever will.
ps - as far as TOAA - is he also multiversal? or does each universe have an incarnation, like each has an eternity? if so, TOAA is toast. if, like LT he IS multiversal, then perhaps he COULD defeat AM) i also don't know if thanos w/IG would beat him. i thought the gems were incarnations of power for THIS universe. at least according to their origins.
Living Universes? Nope
"precrisis spectre basically WAS LT" nope Spectre is and always has been powered by God.
<<Anti-Monitor can't do shit. - He beats dead universes. WOW>> yep. they're dead because he killed them.
<<Were the Universe Anti-monitor living? able to act? NO>>
i honestly don't know what you were TRYING to say here, but if it was something like could the universes he destroyed fight back, then . . . hell yeah! each of the universes had its protectors - the universes did not WANT to die! did each have an 'eternity' or some equivalent? i don't know. dc operates a little differently. i was putting his accomplishments into MARVEL terms. as far as LT - a full power pre-crisis spectre was arguably MORE powerful than LT. he can basically use whatever power he NEEDS. sort of like PF if what gs says is true. and he STILL couldn't beat AM!
<<Anti-monitor didn't beat countless Eternity he defeated Universe (Eternity can act fight back)>>
and here you have me really confused because for the life of me i can't understand why you're not getting the multiverse thing. the title of the series was CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS! do you really think there are infinite earths tucked away inside ONE universe?? how is that possible?? they'd all be superimposed atop each other because they all exist in the same place! so the obvious answer is - THEY CAN'T! each of the INFINITE EARTHS existed in a seperate 'UNIVERSE'. the collection of all these variations of earth (and the universes they reside in) is the MULTIVERSE. each of the earths (and their universes) had its defenders - AM defeated them and destroyed their universe. then he moved to the next and the next. that's how dc eliminated all their problems. i'm not trying to talk down to you, i'm not even debating - it's a simple fact expressed in crisis. AM destroyed billions of UNIVERSES in an effort to destroy the MULTIVERSE. i'll give gs his PF, because clearly he appears to be the expert there, but it doesn't change the fact - AM was one tough sob and i doubt any 'non-force-of-creation-thing-with-avatars' will ever equal the feat.