The Living Tribunal Vs. The Phoenix Force

Even the Beyonder thought that noone could challenge his powers.
Thanos defeated Akhenaton,but Akhenaton had gained the HOTU from a different timeline.Tom Breevort has said that The End happened in an alternate reality.This is marvel's stance.This means that Thanos did not control the Multiverse,but only an alternate reality.Maybe there are other realities in which Akhenaton won,and other in which Doom succeded.Anyway to have power over the MUltiverse you must beabove it,not a part of it.When you introduce alternate realities you destroy the idea of power over the multiverse.
Thanos could probably overpower the LT because there are limits to the power the LT can employ in a single universe,as shown by what ifs or alternate realities in which he could not easily beat universal threats.
Furthermore,the LT uses M-bodies to manifest,and so do the other abstracts.They cannot manifest directly,and probably there is a limit to the power they can manifest through the m-bodies.

The Phoenix Force needs avatars to act because it exists on a higher plane of reality,just like the true Beyonders that can interact with our reality only through cosmic cubes.Did you see the True Beyonders in the End?Their universe was affected or not? Quite simply,they cannot be contained in the normal universe.
It would be like a human being trying to interact directly with bacteria or subatomic particles.In Nxm 154 Jean reformed the Universe and held it in her hands.And she was but one of countless phoenix avatars seen in the WHR,following the orders from the "voice" which was probably meant to represent God.
In the White Hot Room single Universes are seen as flickering points of light. In Morrison interpretation the phoenixes get incarnated to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.When there is need of a "human viewpoint" for precision work.The M'Krann Crystal,if not repaired,would have destroyed all of reality😖o jean had to become Phoenix.Thanos ultimately returned everything to the status quo in which it was before;so there was no need to intervene.The voice/consciousness and the phoenixes exist outside normal spacetime,and can see everything from beginning to End.Therefore they know when a crisis will resolve itself or not.

That was a very good post. I was just typing a reply then i read this and scrapped it lol

Thanos was merged with the entire HOTU, Akenathon with only a fraction of his power.

bump

Originally posted by markolin

Thanos could probably overpower the LT because there are limits to the power the LT can employ in a single universe,as shown by what ifs or alternate realities in which he could not easily beat universal threats.

Thanos did overpower LT and frankly he made LT look like mere of insect. Thanos with HOTU could probably destroy all reallity at once, his power was literally limitless (nor Tue Beyonders have such power nor M'Kraan, but LT could also stop M'Krann if he wanted, his pwoers were equal to TOAA). Thanos with HOTU is the greatest power ever shown in Marvel Universe (if we don't count TOAA, but we never really seen TOAA). And LT exist in all realites at once, LT has been called most powerful beign ever in MU, execpt TOAA and Thanos with HOTU. Marvel has made LT most powerful beign and that is it, he exist everywher at any time, exists on every dimension at the same time in each as well as actually existing in every single universe in the multiverse at the same time, in every part of the existence or reality.

I meant Thanos with HOTU pwoers were equal to TOAA.

Anyway, most pwoerful forces in MU ever:
1)TOAA
2)Thanos with HTOU
3)LT

Yet Marvel has officially stated that the End is meant to be an alternate reality and NOT CANON.So his power was limitless in AN ALTERNATE REALITY,not in the main timeline or the whole Multiverse.They said it explicitly through editorial statement,because they didnt like the way Starlin wrote Thanos yet again at the top of the pile.And all the End stories were always meant to be imaginary stories which are not in continuity.Having power only over an alternate reality does not mean having power over everything.And the LT is multiversal,but manifests in single universes only through M-bodies.
The fact that LT could stop M'Krann is a mere supposition.The Lt couldnt beat Korvac in a what if and had to seal that Universe away,and couldnt just blink the starbrand out of existence-he said that the power of the Starbrand was equal to his.The Starbrand originates from another Multiverse,and also the Beyonders were said to come from another Multiverse,even if this has maybe been retconned.And the White Hot Room is outside the Multiverse,or rather,contains it.

As for the HOTU,an artifact that can give the power of God just happens to go unnoticed and unchecked until Thanos is ready to put his hands over it? What is power source? Who created it? What its purpose (other than empowering Thanos)? Noone noticed it before or thought to quarantine it?

Ultimately for me the point is that when I read Claremont and Morrison I see well-thought stories,with a rich symbology and logically coherent.
When I read Starlin stories I see abstract concepts depicted as one-dimensional buffoons which have no better idea than throwing planets at Thanos or making supernovas explode,and a lot of plotholes.
Morrison idea that the phoenixes exist ouside normal spacetime and can select the precise moment in which incarnate in order to carry their tasks makes sense.
The idea that the HOTU is allowed by to stay uncheked while the LT sleeps the sleep of the just until Thanos or someone else is ready to grab it makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by markolin
Yet Marvel has officially stated that the End is meant to be an alternate reality and NOT CANON.So his power was limitless in AN ALTERNATE REALITY,not in the main timeline or the whole Multi verse.They said it explicitly through editorial statement,because they didnt like the way Starlin wrote Thanos yet again at the top of the pile.And all the End stories were always meant to be imaginary stories which are not in continuity.Having power only over an alternate reality does not mean having power over everything.And the LT is multiversal,but manifests in single universes only through M-bodies.
The fact that LT could stop M'Krann is a mere supposition.The Lt couldnt beat Korvac in a what if and had to seal that Universe away,and couldnt just blink the starbrand out of existence-he said that the power of the Starbrand was equal to his.The Starbrand originates from another Multi verse,and also the Beyonders were said to come from another Multi verse,even if this has maybe been retconned.And the White Hot Room is outside the Multi verse,or rather,contains it.

As for the HOTU,an artifact that can give the power of God just happens to go unnoticed and unchecked until Thanos is ready to put his hands over it? What is power source? Who created it? What its purpose (other than empowering Thanos)? Noone noticed it before or thought to quarantine it?

Ultimately for me the point is that when I read Claremont and Morrison I see well-thought stories,with a rich symbology and logically coherent.
When I read Starlin stories I see abstract concepts depicted as one-dimensional buffoons which have no better idea than throwing planets at Thanos or making supernovas explode,and a lot of plotholes.
Morrison idea that the phoenixes exist ouside normal spacetime and can select the precise moment in which incarnate in order to carry their tasks makes sense.
The idea that the HOTU is allowed by to stay uncheked while the LT sleeps the sleep of the just until Thanos or someone else is ready to grab it makes no sense at all.

As I understand you, LT exist everywhere only in one Multiverse and not in whole existence or in whole MU.
And I still think Thanos power would be limitless everywhere, no matter what reality, so power over whole existence or whole MU, but he is such lower being for power of God or HOTU that he close doesn't understand, so that is why he never knew about other realities. No being and it doens't matter from which timeline or which Multiverse or Byonder wouldn't be mathc clsoe for Thanos with HOTU or anyone with HOTU. I know it's stupid always empowering Thanos, but still no being in MU, no matter from where or when wouldn't be close able to challenge such power as Thanos possesed with HOTU.

Originally posted by markolin
Thanos ultimately returned everything to the status quo in which it was before;so there was no need to intervene.The voice/consciousness and the phoenixes exist outside normal spacetime,and can see everything from beginning to End.Therefore they know when a crisis will resolve itself or not. [/B]

Um okay. Really? Those recent issues stated all that? Or is it just your ASSUMPTION? I thought so. 😉

Originally posted by Beyonder
Um okay. Really? Those recent issues stated all that? Or is it just your ASSUMPTION? I thought so. 😉

Well if the avatars are doctors of the multiverse healing and disinfecting as deemed appropriate by the Voice then why didnt they intervene then. Exactly. Where were the Phoenix avatars in the End even though they have the power to create universes on a whim and destroy timelines? Placing them at the top of the Marvel hierarchy. ('Here Comes Tomorrow' story arc) It is well known the White Hot room is outside time and space and that the universes are represented within it as spheres of energy(again in 'Here Comes Tomorrow) from here the phoenixes watch events occurring in the various universes and realities of the multiverse and view the outcomes. That is how the the Voice knows when precisely to send the avatars into the universes below to prevent certain futures and outcomes. Its all in New Xmen B. Happy reading. After you've educated yourself feel free to PM your thank u.

Originally posted by markolin
Even the Beyonder thought that noone could challenge his powers.
Thanos defeated Akhenaton,but Akhenaton had gained the HOTU from a different timeline.Tom Breevort has said that The End happened in an alternate reality.This is marvel's stance.This means that Thanos did not control the Multiverse,but only an alternate reality.Maybe there are other realities in which Akhenaton won,and other in which Doom succeded.Anyway to have power over the MUltiverse you must beabove it,not a part of it.When you introduce alternate realities you destroy the idea of power over the multiverse.
Thanos could probably overpower the LT because there are limits to the power the LT can employ in a single universe,as shown by what ifs or alternate realities in which he could not easily beat universal threats.
Furthermore,the LT uses M-bodies to manifest,and so do the other abstracts.They cannot manifest directly,and probably there is a limit to the power they can manifest through the m-bodies.

The Phoenix Force needs avatars to act because it exists on a higher plane of reality,just like the true Beyonders that can interact with our reality only through cosmic cubes.Did you see the True Beyonders in the End?Their universe was affected or not? Quite simply,they cannot be contained in the normal universe.
It would be like a human being trying to interact directly with bacteria or subatomic particles.In Nxm 154 Jean reformed the Universe and held it in her hands.And she was but one of countless phoenix avatars seen in the WHR,following the orders from the "voice" which was probably meant to represent God.
In the White Hot Room single Universes are seen as flickering points of light. In Morrison interpretation the phoenixes get incarnated to perform acts of microsurgery from the inside.When there is need of a "human viewpoint" for precision work.The M'Krann Crystal,if not repaired,would have destroyed all of reality😖o jean had to become Phoenix.Thanos ultimately returned everything to the status quo in which it was before;so there was no need to intervene.The voice/consciousness and the phoenixes exist outside normal spacetime,and can see everything from beginning to End.Therefore they know when a crisis will resolve itself or not.

Aren’t you the one that said Phoenix is only a force, not a being?

I will show you a scan that says Phoenix Force is an entity 🙂 LMAO

Well she is no different than death, eternity etc. She is a being that represents life the multiverse.

NXM 154 jean reformed the universe---- So IG can do that as well , reformed where did you get that I read that issue all she did was save a dying universe isn't that her role (protecting life)

And that makes her > LT ok lol

Now lets get back to biz

LT > power over the multiverse > IG

And you even said Phoenix Force can't act without Avatars so i guess LT wins 🙂

Phoenix Force is opposite of death.

And death got own by IG which got owned by LT.

markolin : here you go read this
she is a entity just like death 🙂

I think the Phoenix is about the same level as eternity or so.

but this stuff is a bit meaningless...

The phoenix is a force.There is probably also a collective consciousness of the avatars.
The pic you posted was the preview for Endsong 1.Endong seemed to follow the old retcon version.But in Endsong 5 surprise surprise! The tables have turned and the "phoenix force" in Ensong has been explained as just a shard given consciousness by Jean,confirming the retcon of the retcon.
Sorry! 😄
Jean did not just reform the Universe.She held it in her hands.She was outside of it.When the White Hot Room first appeared in Classic X-men it was seen as an extradimensional realm above the realm of death and from which single universes are seen as points of light.

Originally posted by markolin
The phoenix is a force.There is probably also a collective consciousness of the avatars.
The pic you posted was the preview for Endsong 1.Endong seemed to follow the old retcon version.But in Endsong 5 surprise surprise! The tables have turned and the "phoenix force" in Ensong has been explained as just a shard given consciousness by Jean,confirming the retcon of the retcon.
Sorry! 😄
Jean did not just reform the Universe.She held it in her hands.She was outside of it.When the White Hot Room first appeared in Classic X-men it was seen as an extradimensional realm above the realm of death and from which single universes are seen as points of light.

1) Phoenix force can't act (without avatars)
2) You said she exist beyond space/ time – Space/time = Eternity

Death is not bounded by space/time either

IG – Space, Time, soul etc

Am beginning to think Phoenix is opposite of death.

The way I see it LT is above all

there you have it

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
I think the Phoenix is about the same level as eternity or so.

but this stuff is a bit meaningless...

TAOO = Phoenix > LT now that's just stupid

Remade the universe and what I find out she healed it 🙁 next time people give correct info

Originally posted by kgkg
Yes people are starting to overrate the phoenix

TAOO = Phoenix > LT now that's just stupid

Remade the universe and what I find out she healed it 🙁 next time people give correct info

what do you think healing is? she cut away 150 years and regrew them. telekinetically controlling all the atoms in the universe.

but in any case, I think LT is definitely above phoenix. But on the same level as eternity, thats not a stretch at all. read x-men forever.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
what do you think healing is? she cut away 150 years and regrew them. telekinetically controlling all the atoms in the universe.

but in any case, I think LT is definitely above phoenix. But on the same level as eternity, thats not a stretch at all. read x-men forever.

Healing and making a universe is two different things.

Some people in other thread said she made a universe.

And you are right.

Eternity/ Death/phoenix force / Infinity are all forces close to each other I see that now.

Here’s what I think:

The LT is the administrator/guardian of the multiverse. He was appointed to be the representative of TOAA in matters of cosmic importance. He obviously chooses what warrants his attention and what does not, hence his interference in the HOTU affair, but not the IG affair. His power level has changed, as every Marvel character’s has, over the years. When he first appeared in Strange Tales, he wasn’t nearly as powerful as he is now. The same was the case with Eternity’s first appearance.

The PF is responsible for the existence of the multiverse. It is there at the beginning and ending of every universe, making alterations as necessary. Reed Richards said in a recent issue of FF that it was the PF that created Galactus (and by extension abstracts like Eternity, Death, Infinity, Oblivion, etc. according to Galactus’ origin story). We haven’t seen any being in the MU manipulate universes the way we saw in Here Comes Tomorrow, not even the LT. In Guardians of the Galaxy, the Phoenix even healed Eternity, and it was said that it was the only one. When Galactus tried to “exorcise” the Phoenix Force from Rachel, stars began dying. Uatu, Roma and Death herself showed up to witness this.

Death, Eternity, etc are all universal concepts. The PF is multiversal and omniversal.
When the members of Excalibur were traveling during the Cross-Time Caper, Rachel noted that she was the only one that didn’t have a double. Galactus had doubles in alternate realities.

The PF is NOT the opposite of Death. Eternity is. How could it be the opposite of Death when Death and Eternity were spawned at the beginning of this universe, which the PF created? To that end,

The PF isn’t this second rate power that some people seem to believe it is. It’s a toss-up between LT and PF as to who has more power: one who guards existence or one who creates it.