Originally posted by kgkg
Healing and making a universe is two different things.Some people in other thread said she made a universe.
And you are right.
Eternity/ Death/phoenix force / Infinity are all forces close to each other I see that now.
to be fair, in x-men forever (and I think somewhere else too) it says that the phoenix is the spark responsible for the creation of the cosmos.
😕 who knows. Im content with a less explicit, more mystical understanding of the phoenix.
Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Here’s what I think:The LT is the administrator/guardian of the multiverse. He was appointed to be the representative of TOAA in matters of cosmic importance. He obviously chooses what warrants his attention and what does not, hence his interference in the HOTU affair, but not the IG affair. His power level has changed, as every Marvel character’s has, over the years. When he first appeared in Strange Tales, he wasn’t nearly as powerful as he is now. The same was the case with Eternity’s first appearance.
The PF is responsible for the existence of the multiverse. It is there at the beginning and ending of every universe, making alterations as necessary. Reed Richards said in a recent issue of FF that it was the PF that created Galactus (and by extension abstracts like Eternity, Death, Infinity, Oblivion, etc. according to Galactus’ origin story). We haven’t seen any being in the MU manipulate universes the way we saw in Here Comes Tomorrow, not even the LT. In Guardians of the Galaxy, the Phoenix even healed Eternity, and it was said that it was the only one. When Galactus tried to “exorcise” the Phoenix Force from Rachel, stars began dying. Uatu, Roma and Death herself showed up to witness this.
Death, Eternity, etc are all universal concepts. The PF is multiversal and omniversal.
When the members of Excalibur were traveling during the Cross-Time Caper, Rachel noted that she was the only one that didn’t have a double. Galactus had doubles in alternate realities.The PF is NOT the opposite of Death. Eternity is. How could it be the opposite of Death when Death and Eternity were spawned at the beginning of this universe, which the PF created? To that end,
The PF isn’t this second rate power that some people seem to believe it is. It’s a toss-up between LT and PF as to who has more power: one who guards existence or one who creates it.
That was a good post CF. Im gonna hav to look up that FF issue.
Originally posted by IRTMU-Dragon
The Mask would just walk in and own everyone.BTW, Whats this PF shit? Its not an aspect of the one above all, WTF?! The living Tribunal is a servant of TOAA, actually, Beyonder, thats why.
Scroll down to Markolin's post and read that. For some reason, he assumes PF = aspect of TOAA.
Galactic Storm, bein a Phoenix fan, whole heartedly agrees. 🙄
Ok I persoanally think that the Phoenix Force and its avatars are always overrated.
What I gathered from reading the comic that was shown earlier is that there are multiple avatars. One in each Universe. The PF cannot act on its own but empowers one person in each reality / universe to take care of everything there. Similar to fixing any little things that start messsing with the Universe.
The Living Tribunal has been around since the beginning of all of the multiverses. He only intervenes when one universe starts amassing more cosmic or mystical power than the other universes. He is there to remain order. LT only acts on things that will ultimately affect the entire multiverse.
LT deals with things on a much bigger scale than the PF. The PF cannot act on its own thats why it needs the avatars. They both have their roles in the Universe though and if one ceased to exist nothing good will come of it.
I will say this though... if the LT is hit by a Shi'ar spaceship blaster... I am pretty sure he would not die... like Phoenix did. So thats my look on it.
Actually when Jean became Phoenix the first time it was in order to fix the M'Krann Crystal,whose annihilation wave could destroy the Universe (as seen in Uxm 107-108) or rather,the entire Multiverse (as further explained later in Gambit and the X-ternals 3 in the Age of Apocalypse) in an istant.The LT has never done anything on this scale.Nor I have ever seen him holding an Universe in his hands as Jean does in Nxm 154.
The point of the avatars is that they incarnate in order to achieve a human viewpoint and perform precision work from the inside,with the least possible degree of interference.Universes are fragile things after all.Jean's Universe heart "got stuck" in Nxm 154.
The model is that wimp,God,who was "unable to act by himself" and sent to Earth his human avatar,who clearly is overrated because was killed by a few nails.
The phoenix did not die when hit by a spaceship blaster.I dont know what you're referring to,but all phoenix manifestations in our plane of reality are created by the avatar.The Phoenix that was chasen down by the Sh'iar in Endsong was an aspect of Jean,just as Phoenix in the Dark Phoenix Saga was Jean.And the avatars are human beings.They can die (only to be reborn when they're needed).
The Phoenix is the force of creation.Whitout it there wouldnt be a multiverse.As Cosmic Flame said,it is at the beginning and ending of every Universe.This has been said many times in Uxm,Classic X-men,X-men The End,Excalibur (for example the issue in which Galactus tries to exorcise the phoenix from Rachel) X-men Forever (by Eternity himself),etc.
Originally posted by markolin
The model is that wimp,God,who was "unable to act by himself" and sent to Earth his human avatar,who clearly is overrated because was killed by a few nails.
dude talking about comics is fine but when you make fun of people's beliefs and downplay you are crossing the line. So i suggest you stop making fun of Christianity and get back on subject before you offend a lot of people and you get kicked out of this forum
killed by a few nails??? thats the very bad to say, he was beatin to a pulp even before he was put on the cross, he was on the cross for hours before he died for everyones sin (just like the sin u just did markolin), Jesus LET himself be killed, if he wanted to he could have snapped his fingers and every Angel in Heaven would have come down and killed all of the roman soldiers.....
Originally posted by markolin
The LT has never done anything on this scale.Nor I have ever seen him holding an Universe in his hands as Jean does in Nxm 154.
Thanos with the IG stomped an entire bridgade of cosmic deities. Nebula with the IG did the same thing. Warlock with the IG attacked Eternity and dropped him on his knees. He than knocked Galactus, a Watcher, Ziran a Celestial, Chaos, Order, etc. None of them could do anything to him. LT with a snap of the finger restored order, even Warlock was shocked. Eternity than continued his case.
Remember Marvel Vs. DC? If we're bringing in the reckons of Phoenix, well Marvel reckoned the Brothers to being pawns of Spectre and LT. LT was holding them in the palm of his hand and watching them as The Dweller in the Darkness watched. This reckon also happened in an X-Men book.
Originally posted by Superherovandal
dude talking about comics is fine but when you make fun of people's beliefs and downplay you are crossing the line. So i suggest you stop making fun of Christianity and get back on subject before you offend a lot of people and you get kicked out of this forum
I did not make fun of christianity at all.Like it or not the original story of the Phoenix closely parallels that of Jesus. Jean becomes Phoenix after sacrifing her life to save her friends,she resurrects and saves the universe.All the symbols (the sun,symbolized by the solar storm,the death/rebirth,the sacrifice,the phoenix-which was the prime symbol for Jesus from early christianity through the Middle Ages) are closely connected to the symbolism of incarnation,and Claremont used them consciously.She sacrificed herself for love,and she became something greater for this.Later,when she fixes the M'Krann Crystal,she feels that together with the other x-men they are a whole that is more than the sum of its part.My sarcasm was pointed at the endlessly repeated argument that the phoenix needs avatars to act,which to me is a sign of lack of imagination and of true understanding of the symbolism used from the beginning.And what I said about God and Christ was just to show the dangers of a too literal take on things.
Originally posted by Beyonder
Thanos with the IG stomped an entire bridgade of cosmic deities. Nebula with the IG did the same thing. Warlock with the IG attacked Eternity and dropped him on his knees. He than knocked Galactus, a Watcher, Ziran a Celestial, Chaos, Order, etc. None of them could do anything to him. LT with a snap of the finger restored order, even Warlock was shocked. Eternity than continued his case.Remember Marvel Vs. DC? If we're bringing in the reckons of Phoenix, well Marvel reckoned the Brothers to being pawns of Spectre and LT. LT was holding them in the palm of his hand and watching them as The Dweller in the Darkness watched. This reckon also happened in an X-Men book.
But he was not seen outside the Universe,holding it in his hands.He was always shown as a part of it.
The x-men book you refer to is not in continuity.It is the comic version of the adventure of x-men cartoon.
Originally posted by markolin
But he was not seen outside the Universe,holding it in his hands.He was always shown as a part of it.
So holding the universe in your hands means she's more powerful than him? He's not part of the universe. He's guardian of the multiverse. Every cosmic deity regards him as the most powerful being just below TOAA. Holding the universe in your hands doesn't prove anything. When the Phoenix can casually dismiss Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, Celestials, Watchers, etc. like the Infinity Gauntlet, then we can talk. Magus and his citadel existed outside the normal universe during Infinity War. Still doesn't mean a thing. Agamotto said it himself that the affairs of Dr. Strange's universe hold no baring in his own cosmos - whatever happens to Eternity is not Agamotto's concern. Agamotto is below LT.
LT snapped his finger and restored order. Warlock w/ IG was shocked.
The x-men book you refer to is not in continuity.It is the comic version of the adventure of x-men cartoon.
It's an obvious reckon. LT referred to the Brothers as part of his plan, and he was going to consult his hooded spectral ally. It's a reckon both Marvel & DC agreed to.
Originally posted by Beyonder
So holding the universe in your hands means she's more powerful than him? He's not part of the universe. He's guardian of the multiverse. Every cosmic deity regards him as the most powerful being just below TOAA. Holding the universe in your hands doesn't prove anything. When the Phoenix can casually dismiss Eternity, Galactus, Chaos, Order, Celestials, Watchers, etc. like the Infinity Gauntlet, then we can talk. Magus and his citadel existed outside the normal universe during Infinity War. Still doesn't mean a thing. Agamotto said it himself that the affairs of Dr. Strange's universe hold no baring in his own cosmos - whatever happens to Eternity is not Agamotto's concern. Agamotto is below LT.LT snapped his finger and restored order. Warlock w/ IG was shocked.
It's an obvious reckon. LT referred to the Brothers as part of his plan, and he was going to consult his hooded spectral ally. It's a reckon both Marvel & DC agreed to.
I dont want to imply she's more powerful or anything.
While many beings exist outside the normal Universe,they are more in pocket dimensions on the outskirts of it,so to speak.We dont see them holding the Universe with the power to crush it in their hands.The visual was meant to convey the impression that the WHR is a higher plane of reality,from which viewpoint Universes are little things of no consequence.Quentin would have just let that Universe die,Jean restored it.
As for all the entities you have named,I suppose that in the alternate reality in which Jean become DarK Phoenix a second time in what if 27 they were eaten whitout much resistance when she devoured the entire Universe in the last panel of the story 😄
As for the retcon,I think it was more of a tongue-in-cheek thing.Anyway neither the amalgam crossovers nor adventures of x-men are really in continuity and are never referenced elsewhere.
Originally posted by markolin
As for all the entities you have named,I suppose that in the alternate reality in which Jean become DarK Phoenix a second time in what if 27 they were eaten whitout much resistance when she devoured the entire Universe in the last panel of the story.
In another what if, the Phoenix couldn't even kill Set. All it did was make Set stronger. 😉