this match isnt going to last any longer just because of ali's name. The fact is that all ali is, is a boxer. His endurance may help him with some pain. How would ali defend against grapples and locks? you have to be properly trained to know how to get out of locks and grapples without hurting yourself. Bruce Lee knew the human body aswell as a top physician. He knew which areas to attack. This isnt just Bruce Lee, but any martial artist that devotes their entire life to the philosophy. Bruce's base stance was the mantis, the Mantis is a stance from gung fu which is dedicated to blocking punches and counters.
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
I was highlighting the fact that Bruce Lee masterd many domains. He was not just a martial artist, but a student of the physical condition of fighting and self defense. The man created an entire art and way of thinking.How calculated would ali be when unconcious? I think you would agree that a fight is not decided by who is bigger and stronger. It always comes down to who wants it more and who is more skilled. Bruce lee is obviously far more skilled in fighting than Ali. If you would pin these two together in a straight boxing match with boxing rules then of course Ali would win. However if it were a regular fight, Bruce lee would take out Ali with one grappling move.
I would even wager to say that Bruce lee possessed a stronger force of impact. The man trained 12 hours out of the day. for his entire life.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
And Ali didn't? I'd definitely take that wager....
And as for Bruce Lee Vs Ali in the grapple....
Ali by brute stength then a choke. 😛 (Maybe)
Bruce would STILL have to find his way in there first TO the grapple.
And against that handspeed/footwork? (Remember Ali knocked people out while going backwards while flurrying.....)
I am more than positive that Ali engaged in very rigerous training. ali said he conditioned for boxing four days out of the week while between bouts. He would train 6 days out of the week when he had a match. This is what he said. as for Bruce lee having to get in close to perform a grapple...well, this is true. I highly doubt bruce Lee would be on the offensive any way, that would go against everything he believed. however, if Bruce Lee would counter with a grapple it would be very difficult for Ali to get out of, and even if he did i doubt he would be as functional. Have you ever tried to fight with a pinched nerve?
Ali was very good at getting beat up. He has proved that. He is equally good at beating people up, but Bruce Lee doesnt beat people up, like most other martial artists, He would first understand the movement of his opponent, then hinder his opponent's range of movement and force him into making mistakes. Thats what these people do.. Have you ever read jeet kune do (bruce's art) ? If you have, you will understand that Bruce Lee focused on the perception of ending a fight in as limited executions as possible. It is like clint eastwood in dirty harry, he takes extra time to focus his shot, so when he does fire, it is a crippling shot.
"I am more than positive that Ali engaged in very rigerous training. ali said he conditioned for boxing four days out of the week while between bouts. He would train 6 days out of the week when he had a match. This is what he said. as for Bruce lee having to get in close to perform a grapple...well, this is true. I highly doubt bruce Lee would be on the offensive any way, that would go against everything he believed. however, if Bruce Lee would counter with a grapple it would be very difficult for Ali to get out of, and even if he did i doubt he would be as functional. Have you ever tried to fight with a pinched nerve?
Ali was very good at getting beat up. He has proved that. He is equally good at beating people up, but Bruce Lee doesnt beat people up, like most other martial artists, He would first understand the movement of his opponent, then hinder his opponent's range of movement and force him into making mistakes. Thats what these people do.. Have you ever read jeet kune do (bruce's art) ? If you have, you will understand that Bruce Lee focused on the perception of ending a fight in as limited executions as possible. It is like clint eastwood in dirty harry, he takes extra time to focus his shot, so when he does fire, it is a crippling shot."
Yup. Fair play. These are well made points...
I agree with most of that.... But how do you mean "proved at he was good at getting beat up?"
(If we were talking about a "Both in their prime"😉
Who in the sixties beat Ali up...? You'd have to look to the seventies, after the layoff to see any whuppings being adminstered to Ali...
(The worst being Berbick and Holmes in the eighties, when he fought with Parkinsons) Frazier and Norton..? 70's.
And taking that extra moment would be vrey risky indeed against technique, speed and power right on your door...
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
look at the twos techniques. Ali's technique was getting the shit kicked out of himself untill his opponent got tired. Though ali probably had the best endurance boxing has seen aswell as the fastest feet. there are far superior boxers. Ali was for the most part sloppy with his shit.
Later on when his legs weren't so efficient he may have become flat footed, but watch any fight from 63-67....
Totally different story...
No one could get near him....and if they did.... Ali win...
(Despite Henry cooper's left hook in 64... 😛 )
Ali was unorthodox, but rarely sloppy... Especially in his prime..
Originally posted by AdventChild
no it's to end it as soon as possible... i do martial arts (TKD) it's part of self defense.....oh and my brother also did hapkido and he just started ju jitsu ....kung fu is kinda crapy....
err....no. Whats the point in hosting a tournament or a match if its over in a short time?
Perhaps on the street yes, in which the principle of the art is shadowed by a different objective such as a presumed right over an argument. Even if you are told to end the encounter as soon as possible, thats the best in YOUR interest as not to sustain injury (in most cases this is appplied to a person who does not train regularly on a daily basis).
In the case of 'athlets' training since a tender age, its completly out of order grasping a quick win, which leaves an audience unconvinced of his/her performance.
Just because the fight ends in a minute with a large gap between the winner and the loser, it doesnt show that the winner has a good grasp in the Art (altough we know what Lee and Ali are capable of).
For all i know the match is fixed !
So no in the case of people training for days on end, making the fight over in a heartbeat is not the case as they have both been training well for it and there is no way anyone will go down that easy.
I never meant that Ali got his ass beat in the traditional sense. I meant he got his ass beat so he could ultimately beat some ass. Even early on ali let people beat on him, that was his style, it showed how much more bad ass he was.
Heres the thing about Alis reach. In a world where fighting has rules (boxing), reach is one of the most important aspects. However, take a world where reach, weight,speed and strength mean squat (martial arts) Ali is a fish out of water.
Originally posted by GCG
err....no. Whats the point in hosting a tournament or a match if its over in a short time?
the point of tournaments is to show discipline and a place to refine skill. If you have watched tournaments they usually last a little while because you have two people studying the same art, most times the two people are on or around the same skill level, that is why they seem to last a long time sometimes, but usually they are very short. The essence of nearly every form of martial arts is self discipline and to resort to fighting only as a last resort.
"I never meant that Ali got his ass beat in the traditional sense. I meant he got his ass beat so he could ultimately beat some ass. Even early on ali let people beat on him, that was his style, it showed how much more bad ass he was.
Heres the thing about Alis reach. In a world where fighting has rules (boxing), reach is one of the most important aspects. However, take a world where reach, weight,speed and strength mean squat (martial arts) Ali is a fish out of water."
Oh I see... My misinterpretation... 🙂
I bought up reach as a defense in the "Neutralising leg advantages" debate... By backing in and out and jabbing, then following up, ALi would've matched there as Ali's reach with his straights was around the length of the leg of a man Bruce lee's height, thats all...
But at close range Ali was a great in fighter too...
ANd going away from tournaments and into Fighting, the Reach, speed, weight etc mean an awful lot.... Largely the reason we dont see 4ft , 5 stone people with 1 ft long arms being successful in fights very often...
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
the point of tournaments is to show discipline and a place to refine skill. If you have watched tournaments they usually last a little while because you have two people studying the same art, most times the two people are on or around the same skill level, that is why they seem to last a long time sometimes, but usually they are very short. The essence of nearly every form of martial arts is self discipline and to resort to fighting only as a last resort.
dont mean to be rude but I addressed that to AdventChild who quoted me cause i quoted Kosta saying that the fight should/would end quickly.
I have seen tournamnts live and watched them on the telly. 🙂
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
"IANd going away from tournaments and into Fighting, the Reach, speed, weight etc mean an awful lot.... Largely the reason we dont see 4ft , 5 stone people with 1 ft long arms being successful in fights very often...
fighting is chaotic. This is why most times in a fight it always comes down to who wants it more, or who is the better fighter. Martial arts doesnt teach you to fight. if you see someone who incoorperates a martial art into their life fighting another person, most times their is only one person fighting. Most forms of martial arts teaches you to let the person beat themselves in a confrontation.
when you have someone like Ali, who would be the person to take controll and stay calm in a fight against Bruce Lee, a person who does the very same thing. I wager on the person who i would think to be the better fighter. I see Bruce Lee trying to end the confrontation as soon as possible, He studied and trained fighting his entire life. He knows boxing, and he would know that Ali's technique would be going for the most painfull strikes. Boxers are trained to go for areas that will have a lasting effect, like the ribs. Martial artists go for areas that will end a confrontation in one blow, pressure points.