Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee?

Originally posted by StyleTime
That is horribly inaccurate at the absolute least. People crosstrained long before Lee.

Not only that, Lee wasn't an MMA fighter.......because he wasn't a fighter at all.

Yes, Lee couldn't withstand Ali's offense according to the facts of Ali's fights.

Your Lee argument doesn't really stand up as well though. Not only did Lee not fight, but those techniques you mentioned rarely work like that. Current fighters get kicked in the knees with front, side, and spinning kicks all the time and their legs don't break. This whole "kick a joint, break a leg" BS is a myth supported mostly by theories from dojo fatties who don't fight and want to believe their "training" is actually worth something.

Aside from the usual "Lee wins because we'll pretend he can do things he never actually did", the pro-Lee argument directly contradicts what happens in actual combat in general. You all do realize that don't you?

That's not true, because Lee wasn't capable of doing anything you just mentioned. You're just hoping he could. There is a difference.

Sorry buddy but you obviously don't know the science of martial arts and boxing. Every move made in martial arts is a calculation in offense and defense to render the opponent incapacitated. Boxing
is more about conditioning than than technique. Now, i will agree that in actual fighting, conditioning beats technique nearly everytime. However, Like i said before. Ali trained to outlast his opponents not dispatch them as quickly as possible. There is nothing, NOTHING that ali ever displayed that suggests that he had the slighting inkling on how to escape kicks and grapples, let alone counter them. Alie's understanding of defense was centered on taking the damage and how to minimalize it and then react. Lee's focus on defense was on reacting before contact was made and how to use that force and decision against his opponents.

Lee isn't capable of doing anything? You're just being an ignorant troll now. Lee spent his entire life...entire life and nearly every moment of his waking days training and studying the art of combat. His life consisted of conditioning and training. Ali simply lacked the knowledge and skill required to even compete against someone like Lee

Originally posted by StyleTime

As for the boxing comment, boxing is one of the most successful forms of unarmed combat in the history of the human species. It's something nearly all professional fighters train, and is quite common in military use as well. It's effectiveness isn't up for debate. We can see it any time.

That's because of the conditioning regiment not because it's the most effective.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Lee isn't capable of doing anything? You're just being an ignorant troll now. Lee spent his entire life...entire life and nearly every moment of his waking days training and studying the art of combat. His life consisted of conditioning and training. Ali simply lacked the knowledge and skill required to even compete against someone like Lee

But the issue is that Lee has no record outside of movies so all of his knowledge seems to be pretty much theoretical, we don't actually know how well he could apply it. As people have pointed out the art that he developed over all those years of "studying the art of combat" isn't used in MMA where as boxing is.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Lee isn't capable of doing anything? You're just being an ignorant troll now. Lee spent his entire life...entire life and nearly every moment of his waking days training and studying the art of combat. His life consisted of conditioning and training. Ali simply lacked the knowledge and skill required to even compete against someone like Lee

I thought that at first with Styletime, as well. I thought he was AC's sock account (but AC later reassured me he would not stoop as low as to sock a forum he was banned from).

Also, Lee laid the foundations of modern MMA. It is not as though his fighting style was not real world. It DID include grappling.

Let's also include that Bruce Lee thought that real MMA fights would be dirty and nasty.

Here's a nice article from a man that is much more knowledgeable about Bruce Lee's perspectives on MMA.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Grappling-Versus-Non-Grappling,-Bruce-Lee-Style&id=791090

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
There is nothing, NOTHING that ali ever displayed that suggests that he had the slighting inkling on how to escape kicks and grapples, let alone counter them.

That is a more accurate statement and it highlights the entire problem with Lee. He never once proved he could do any of that. You just hope he could.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Sorry buddy but you obviously don't know the science of martial arts and boxing. Every move made in martial arts is a calculation in offense and defense to render the opponent incapacitated. Boxing
is more about conditioning than than technique. Now, i will agree that in actual fighting, conditioning beats technique nearly everytime. However, Like i said before. Lee's focus on defense was on reacting before contact was made and how to use that force and decision against his opponents.

Lee isn't capable of doing anything? You're just being an ignorant troll now. Lee spent his entire life...entire life and nearly every moment of his waking days training and studying the art of combat. His life consisted of conditioning and training. Ali simply lacked the knowledge and skill required to even compete against someone like Lee [/b]

I'm simply stating the facts, which you and others are content to ignore. There is no evidence Lee was a capable fighter because Lee never fought....ever.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
That's because of the conditioning regiment not because it's the most effective.

Originally posted by Thoren
I don't think Lee has the power to knock Ali out, though I believe Ali might not be fast enough to land a solid blow on Lee.

Comes down to conditioning, may favor Lee in the long run, assuming his kicks and punches can take away some of the power Ali can put out.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought that at first with Styletime, as well. I thought he was AC's sock account (but AC later reassured me he would not stoop as low as to sock a forum he was banned from).

Originally posted by NemeBro
This whole "speed=untouchable" logic doesn't actually hold up IRL, fights don't work like that.

Want to know what greater speed really equates to? A better hit ratio.

Rather than having a hit ration of 1:1 (You land one hit for every you take), speed can allow one of 1:2, 1:3, maybe 1:4, but it doesn't allow you to be some untouchable speed demon.

Lee may very well be faster, but Ali himself is not slow by any means, and has shown the ability to take multiple punches from those with greater punching force than Lee, whereas Lee is lacking in those regards.

I'd give you a seal of approval but can't find one of Twilight Sparkle.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But the issue is that Lee has no record outside of movies so all of his knowledge seems to be pretty much theoretical, we don't actually know how well he could apply it. As people have pointed out the art that he developed over all those years of "studying the art of combat" isn't used in MMA where as boxing is.

I'd post another seal of approval but don't want Nemebro to feel left out.

Where the **** is my Rainbow Dash Seal of Approval.

I have a mother****ing Friendship is Magic set here, meaning I would appreciate it the most, and I don't get it?

This is ****ing bogus man, almost as bogus as any attempt to pass off an unquantifiable fighter like Lee as a top-level fighter.

You'll get one, if you become 20% cooler in 10 seconds flat.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Lee spent his entire life...entire life and nearly every moment of his waking days training and studying the art of combat. His life consisted of conditioning and training.

Dude, you've been fantasizing too much. The man was both a skilled and a gifted athlete, performer and martial artust but not let make it out like he was Goku.

He was a family man, he had several mistresses on the side, he had a television and movie career. The man had a life; he lived it.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Lee spent his entire life...entire life and nearly every moment of his waking days training and studying the art of combat. His life consisted of conditioning and training.

Umm...Lee only started training at about 18.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Ali would not be able to react or defend against Lee's fierce and swift kicks. Ali was quick but Lee was lightning fast.I don't know that Lee would have the durability to withstand to many direct blows to the head from Ali, however I doubt Ali would be able to focus on Lee. This fight would be over in under two minutes, this is just how Bruce lee trained and prepared himself for potential confrontations. A simple front kick to the knee would easily disable, Ali. A side kick would be even more devastating. Ali, simply wouldn't have the training to defend against what Lee was capable of.

Kicks are rarely used even whenever I've watched kickboxing on TV, and when attempted, and they fail the user gets brought off balance and punished badly. They have to be almost perfect and there is no telling how exact his kicks are in a real fight and if they fail, whether he can deal an effective counter to keep Ali off him.

Lee's kicks would be a barrier nothing less, I doubt he'd get any offensive strikes off that Ali couldn't just parry with his arms/gloves.The knee would only be a target if Ali was just standing there, and he obviously won't be. Ali is also taller so high/mid kicks will be reaching a fair bit higher than usual which you'd think would eventually give Ali a chance to move in and with his weight and a few combinations from an expert puncher Lee's eyes could be swelled up or he'll either have jaw or cheekbone damage.

There are no reports of how Lee would deal with that either, we don't know how he'll react if one of them stick-thin ribs is broken by a body shot, if Ali wraps him up in a clinch and uses vicious uppercuts, or how his eyes are swelling up, or how real blood is disrupting his vision, or how to fight with your jaw/nose broken, or how to fight against a heavier opponent - you know, all these troublesome real fight specifics that Ali HAS dealt with and came through.

Bruce Lee actually studied much of Ali's fighting style and he learned alot. Ali was a great fighter, agile, fast, intelligent, and strategic. The obvious advantages Ali would have are hand reach, and body-mass power. But the major disadvantages Ali would have are lack of as much diversity as Bruce had. Also keep in mind that Bruce Lee had alot of power, its not about the one -inch punch, actually his demonstrations of the one inch punch were more like pushes. Actual fa-jing (explosive power) does not propel the target but explodes within it. Bruce lee did know about fa-jing and how to manipulate it through each of his body's weapons. He also had the advantage of using his feet, he had a very powerful kick that would damage even someone 300lbs, so Ali's size wouldn't help there. If Bruce and Ali went toe to toe just boxing, I would give it to Ali. If they went all out combat anything goes with no weapons other than the body, i would give it to Bruce Lee no problem. All true warriors know that attacking any and every body part is a go, and no matter your size you had better know how to attack and defend in all areas. For more information on the true warrior arts please contact me, I have been a pupil and learner for a long time and would be happy to share what was given to me with those sincere. This was a great thread!

I say that the simple and essential works best in fighting.
Lee would agree. Lee has smaller legs and wouldnt be able to cope with Peak Ali's movement in/flurry/out attacks strictly boxing or not.

And its not easy to philosophise with a 220lb lightning bolt smashing your head in (and escaping beyond your range swiftly before you can retaliate)
And Ali could likely take Lee's blows anyway.
Lee's one inch 'punch' would not happen. He likely wouldn't be able to negate Ali's reach+movement. (Ali's arms being the length of Lee's legs, for example) Espcially in a non-choreographed unscripted live situation.
Its myth that boxers outside of boxing have to stick to Boxing only.
Ali could perhaps kick Lee's head off.

Lee would have not gotten anywhere near Ernie Terrell/Cleveland Williams fight era Ali.
He would have gotten very close to the floor they both were on though. Real fast too. 😛

I swear to God that kung fu movies and ufc has ruined this generation. Ali outweighs lee by 80 lbs and stands about 9 inches above him. Those movie kicks aren't working on a guy of this caliber, with this speed, and this reach. I'm sure everyone is going to come out of the burger king, wearing their tap-out shirts, and trying to weigh in with their "professional" opinion.....I actually box, my father boxed, and my daughter boxes. a good boxer, even sub-golden gloves, would kill Bruce Lee...............again.

Originally posted by Robtard
So you've decided before you've read. That's good.

One Judo guy?

You mean a guy who won his accolades by not using Jeet Kune Do; Karate instead? You'd think if Bruce Lee trained world champs and he was the reason they were world champions, they'd be world champs employing his fighting style.

Jeet Kune Do is a martial art; you said "tech", which I thought you meant gear/equipment. But see above, how "effective" is Jeet Kune Do? Where is the evidence besides Enter The Dragon and The Chinese Connection?

That's not the point, I obviously couldn't defeat Lee, let alone Ali; the point was to illustrate that your argument of "well, we've not seen him do it" isn't logical. You're essentially saying Lee's lack of proof is more conceiving or as conceiving as Ali's factual proof.

Don't worry about that guy. Is it any wonder that the Superman fan is supporting Lee by IMPLIED FEATS? It just fits the M.O. They like all the fluffy, I can do anything type of stuff.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Ali would not be able to react or defend against Lee's fierce and swift kicks. Ali was quick but Lee was lightning fast.I don't know that Lee would have the durability to withstand to many direct blows to the head from Ali, however I doubt Ali would be able to focus on Lee. This fight would be over in under two minutes, this is just how Bruce lee trained and prepared himself for potential confrontations. A simple front kick to the knee would easily disable, Ali. A side kick would be even more devastating. Ali, simply wouldn't have the training to defend against what Lee was capable of.

So now you're choreographing the fight for Lee? In all your professional fighting wisdom? LOL. Do you see the problem with this?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It would be a lot less tedious if Lee supporters admitted that their support for Lee is based on preference and wishful thinking/conjecture rather than solid evidence.

Good Lord you summed up exactly what I was trying to convey.

To be fair...even a shaky mental case who's only good now for mixing cocktails would beat up a pile of dirty bones.

Either way...by the time this year is out they can have their fight in heaven/hell...cos ol' draft dodger aint lasting out the year.

Originally posted by jaden101
Either way...by the time this year is out they can have their fight in heaven/hell...cos ol' draft dodger aint lasting out the year.

...What are you talking about?

Muhammad Ali is heavier, a better striker.

Bruce Lee honestly wasn't all that good in real sparring competitions, and he wore all those pads. I bet if they were both in a street altercation it all depends on who would be more dirty. I actually think Bruce Lee could do more damage in a street altercation with a beer bottle or something, he seems to be a little more inventive...that's opinion of him.

Physically Muhammad Ali is stronger, faster, a more capable fighter, and much more than that.

If we're talking about a backyard brawl or sanctioned MMA fight, Bruce Lee won't be able to stay off the dirt/canvas. But if it's a street altercation anything could happen. The most important combination of character traits for a fight are confidence, perceptiveness, determination, violence, and brutality. Bruce Lee has a better combination, though Muhammad Ali would be very confident about the technical and physical battle, a street fight is a street fight many a time professional fighters have gotten ****ed up beyond all repair and their careers down the drain to some average joe with a loose plank of wood with nails in it laying around by the dump.