Compeling evidence? Huh, yeah sure.
Anyway, if you train like a maniac for years, train with the best, teach others, invent your own tech, and your body is in an fantastic shape (athletic, strong, fast and you stamina is on top) well sure maybe you could beat Ali or Lee, why not but not both at the same time. And we don't talk about a curb stomp, I talk about a draw more or less. And I don't think you have the shape nor the training Lee had 😉.
Originally posted by rotiartLolno. Landing a kick to the groin standing up is actually not easily done in a stand-up fight.
And honestly after watching UFC tonight a quick kick to the balls will drop a UFC fighter hard.
Anyway, Ali's skills have been proven against many skilled fighters, top-level ones.
Lee's have not, all of his best "feats" are hearsay, and even the hearsay feats of him against other fighters don't actually elevate him to Ali's level.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Compeling evidence? Huh, yeah sure.
Anyway, if you train like a maniac for years, train with the best, teach others, invent your own tech, and your body is in an fantastic shape (athletic, strong, fast and you stamina is on top) well sure maybe you could beat Ali or Lee, why not but not both at the same time. And we don't talk about a curb stomp, I talk about a draw more or less. And I don't think you have the shape nor the training Lee had 😉.
Yes, there is. It's been brought up in this very thread.
-Who where these "the best" Lee trained with?
-Who did Lee teach that went on to prove themselves?
-Which "tech" did Lee invent; how does this link to him being a capable fighter?
No one is arguing that Lee wasn't in great shape, well, maybe an aspirin would, but that's another story. But as it pertains to the"there's no proof" angle, ultimately there is no proof that I couldn't beat them. Which is the point of "there's no proof" as being a poor means to decide a logical outcome here. Best to go with the verifiable facts, which Ali has spades over Lee.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Isn't one of them because there is no proof? Well there is no proof what he can or can't do, so we are left with what we prefer to believe. Like or dislike. I go by a draw.
When there's no way to know what the result would be you don't get make one up, you say: "There's no way to know. Oh, well."
Originally posted by Robtard
Yes, there is. It's been brought up in this very thread.-Who where these "the best" Lee trained with?
-Who did Lee teach that went on to prove themselves?
-Which "tech" did Lee invent; how does this link to him being a capable fighter?
No one is arguing that Lee wasn't in great shape, well, maybe an aspirin would, but that's another story. But as it pertains to the"there's no proof" angle, ultimately there is no proof that I couldn't beat them. Which is the point of "there's no proof" as being a poor means to decide a logical outcome. Best to go with the verifiable facts, which Ali has spades over Lee.
Yes sure, and they are as good as the pro BL myths...
Gene LeBell for example.
Mike Stone for example
Jeet Kune Do. Go ahead, invent one yourself and show how effective and easy it is 😉.
Ultimately there is a proof that you can't do it. And it isn't the logical outcome of this discussion. Lee has done those things, while you did nothing till now. Well, I'm willing to see you prove me wrong, post a pic of you, just so I can see in what kind of shape you are, that should be enough, then you could go on and tell what styles you learned in your life and how long you train. See, the difference between you and Lee is quite huge it seems, you are alive and can prove me wrong I hope^^. Till then, Lee has done enough in his life to let me believe that he can keep up with Ali. You don't have to believe it but it is just a matter of believe.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Yes sure, and they are as good as the pro BL myths...Gene LeBell for example.
Mike Stone for example
Jeet Kune Do. Go ahead, invent one yourself and show how effective and easy it is 😉.
Ultimately there is a proof that you can't do it. And it isn't the logical outcome of this discussion. Lee has done those things, while you did nothing till now. Well, I'm willing to see you prove me wrong, post a pic of you, just so I can see in what kind of shape you are, that should be enough, then you could go on and tell what styles you learned in your life and how long you train. See, the difference between you and Lee is quite huge it seems, you are alive and can prove me wrong I hope^^. Till then, Lee has done enough in his life to let me believe that he can keep up with Ali. You don't have to believe it but it is just a matter of believe.
So you've decided before you've read. That's good.
One Judo guy?
You mean a guy who won his accolades by not using Jeet Kune Do; Karate instead? You'd think if Bruce Lee trained world champs and he was the reason they were world champions, they'd be world champs employing his fighting style.
Jeet Kune Do is a martial art; you said "tech", which I thought you meant gear/equipment. But see above, how "effective" is Jeet Kune Do? Where is the evidence besides Enter The Dragon and The Chinese Connection?
That's not the point, I obviously couldn't defeat Lee, let alone Ali; the point was to illustrate that your argument of "well, we've not seen him do it" isn't logical. You're essentially saying Lee's lack of proof is more conceiving or as conceiving as Ali's factual proof.
Ali would not be able to react or defend against Lee's fierce and swift kicks. Ali was quick but Lee was lightning fast.I don't know that Lee would have the durability to withstand to many direct blows to the head from Ali, however I doubt Ali would be able to focus on Lee. This fight would be over in under two minutes, this is just how Bruce lee trained and prepared himself for potential confrontations. A simple front kick to the knee would easily disable, Ali. A side kick would be even more devastating. Ali, simply wouldn't have the training to defend against what Lee was capable of.
Originally posted by Robtard
So you've decided before you've read. That's good.One Judo guy?
You mean a guy who won his accolades by not using Jeet Kune Do; Karate instead? You'd think if Bruce Lee trained world champs and he was the reason they were world champions, they'd be world champs employing his fighting style.
Jeet Kune Do is a martial art; you said "tech", which I thought you meant gear/equipment. But see above, how "effective" is Jeet Kune Do? Where is the evidence besides Enter The Dragon and The Chinese Connection?
That's not the point, I obviously couldn't defeat Lee, let alone Ali; the point was to illustrate that your argument of "well, we've not seen him do it" isn't logical. You're essentially saying Lee's lack of proof is more conceiving or as conceiving as Ali's factual proof.
You know that ? Ok... 🙄
Yeah, one example, not good enough for you, why am i not surprised? 😂
In an Karate Tournament? Sure. And you know how they trained, what they trained? No I guess but he was successful when he was trained.
There are MMA fighters coming from an JKD background. Read up on it, then you will understand. ^^
That's exactly the point. You are taking something out of context, trying to lowball Lee with your own persona and when I accept your way of arguing and show you how bad your logic is, you back off. It's boring really and a waste of time. The argument is "Bruce Lee did enough in MMA and was well trained (pyhsically, MA) to suggest he can hold his own". That's factual proof for me. Your argument was "he didn't fight anyone, and I didn't too, so I'm better then both *trolollol* aor Lee is as bad as me at MMA". *duh
You have a strong dislike for Lee and you are now just trolling around, so I won't bother replying to you, I don't like wasting my time, sorry pal.^^
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I dunno, Bruce Lee was an MMA Fighter (the first one more ore less).
Not only that, Lee wasn't an MMA fighter.......because he wasn't a fighter at all.
Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Ali would not be able to react or defend against Lee's fierce and swift kicks. Ali was quick but Lee was lightning fast.I don't know that Lee would have the durability to withstand to many direct blows to the head from Ali, however I doubt Ali would be able to focus on Lee. This fight would be over in under two minutes, this is just how Bruce lee trained and prepared himself for potential confrontations. A simple front kick to the knee would easily disable, Ali. A side kick would be even more devastating.
Your Lee argument doesn't really stand up as well though. Not only did Lee not fight, but those techniques you mentioned rarely work like that. Current fighters get kicked in the knees with front, side, and spinning kicks all the time and their legs don't break. This whole "kick a joint, break a leg" BS is a myth supported mostly by theories from dojo fatties who don't fight and want to believe their "training" is actually worth something.
Aside from the usual "Lee wins because we'll pretend he can do things he never actually did", the pro-Lee argument directly contradicts what happens in actual combat in general. You all do realize that don't you?
Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Ali, simply wouldn't have the training to defend against what Lee was capable of.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I would say that Ali was massively skilled.
Especially when pressure tested in observed combat.Lee was the more skilled actor, though.
I didn't say that he doesn't have skill, because you don't become the the best just for physical ability, but in a fight Bruce Lee's fighting skill has a wider range due to his smaller stature and muscle control.
Like I said though, Ali has enough skill, however, to not give Lee a full win.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
You know that ? Ok... 🙄Yeah, one example, not good enough for you, why am i not surprised? 😂
In an Karate Tournament? Sure. And you know how they trained, what they trained? No I guess but he was successful when he was trained.
There are MMA fighters coming from an JKD background. Read up on it, then you will understand. ^^
That's exactly the point. You are taking something out of context, trying to lowball Lee with your own persona and when I accept your way of arguing and show you how bad your logic is, you back off. It's boring really and a waste of time. The argument is "Bruce Lee did enough in MMA and was well trained (pyhsically, MA) to suggest he can hold his own". That's factual proof for me. Your argument was "he didn't fight anyone, and I didn't too, so I'm better then both *trolollol* aor Lee is as bad as me at MMA". *duh
You have a strong dislike for Lee and you are now just trolling around, so I won't bother replying to you, I don't like wasting my time, sorry pal.^^
It's what you're implying by being dismissive of anything that dare say Bruce Lee wasn't everything his legends tell him to be.
No, one example of Lee training with a Judo guy doesn't surpass Ali's shown abilities and what he'd bring here in this hypothetical.
Again, your example doesn't support Lee training champions.
Please post this list of Jeet Kune Do trained MMA fighters? How often do they employ Jeet Kune Do in the MMA-ring?
I'm not low-balling Lee, I'm going with what is shown and known, the man has no fight-record and his actual fighting abilities are mostly hearsay and myth. Lol, I back off? I'm directly challenging that Lee's lack of feats doesn't mean he could complete with a champion who has a laundry list of them, ie a record of 56-5; 37 by KO and who is hailed as one of the greatest fighters of all time. THAT'S my argument, try and debate that, not something you've made up.
Good combo-troll tactic while deftly backing out like you've proved your case, "you don't like Lee" and "you're trolling". Funny, dude. Funny.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Full win? The only legitimate debate to be had is "will Ali's punch kill or KO Lee?"You're assuming that Lee has a wider skillset, but he hasn't actually shown a wider skillset.
Yes he has. I have followed both of their careers, training methods, and lifestyles greatly in search of a way to improve my own, and the level of skill in combat is more in Bruce's dominion. Ali's boxing form is actually not considered effective unless you have his borderline superhuman reflexes.
No, he hasn't. To demonstrate effective skills in combat, you actually have to fight....which Lee didn't do. You're assuming he could do those things when he never proved he could.
As for the boxing comment, boxing is one of the most successful forms of unarmed combat in the history of the human species. It's something nearly all professional fighters train, and is quite common in military use as well. It's effectiveness isn't up for debate. We can see it any time.
Honestly, you'd need superhuman reflexes to do the things you all think Lee could do. Not boxing.
This whole "speed=untouchable" logic doesn't actually hold up IRL, fights don't work like that.
Want to know what greater speed really equates to? A better hit ratio.
Rather than having a hit ration of 1:1 (You land one hit for every you take), speed can allow one of 1:2, 1:3, maybe 1:4, but it doesn't allow you to be some untouchable speed demon.
Lee may very well be faster, but Ali himself is not slow by any means, and has shown the ability to take multiple punches from those with greater punching force than Lee, whereas Lee is lacking in those regards.