Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Please provide evidence to support your claim. Bruce Lees fight record would be a good place to start!
I know old turntables tend to produce broken records but you take the biscuit... we have been over this more times then you have had birthdays, but you still post the same thing over and over again...
do you really need to repeat yourself again???
lets let this end now....
Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
I know old turntables tend to produce broken records but you take the biscuit... we have been over this more times then you have had birthdays, but you still post the same thing over and over again...do you really need to repeat yourself again???
lets let this end now....
You did🙂 Please provide proof of anything.
As others stated earlier you have no evidence.
WOW how could anyone doubt Bruce Lee he broke wooden boards with his BARE FISTS!@
I could care less about who would win in this actual fist fight because I know .............I KNOW that in a prefight conferance ALI would own Bruce so hard he would cry............................Ali was the Stud of all Boxers when it came to promoting his fights!
Originally posted by Hit_and_Missum no.
yer whateva whirly... if I remember you had to derail this tread cause your own sources got used against you.. 😆seriously thou... Broken record.....
you accused me of socking, something which I did not do and the mods know this. If you accuse me of this again I will complain. It appears you derailed the thread.
LOL you derailed it along time ago when the I countered you with the fact that your fav fighting peeps all said Bruce was the daddy...
Whirly... I don't care if you wana complain.. I wasn't the only one who called it "sock of whirly" and lets be honest...
If it swims like a fish, smells like a fish, and looks like a fish.... It's a fish...
Go look at some of the comment you have agreed with about me... If anything I have a right to complain about your bashing of me...
Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
LOL you derailed it along time ago when the I countered you with the fact that your fav fighting peeps all said Bruce was the daddy...Whirly... I don't care if you wana complain.. I wasn't the only one who called it "sock of whirly" and lets be honest...
If it swims like a fish, smells like a fish, and looks like a fish.... It's a fish...
Go look at some of the comment you have agreed with about me... If anything I have a right to complain about your bashing of me...
No you really didn't as style time and all the others said. I felt sorry for you in this thread.
Originally posted by AdventChild
You say this as if you were stating a fact....
So far you have showed no proof...
So far we've given you evidence web sites and resources backing what we've been trying to tell you...
So far all you can come up with about bruce lee are myths...Give evidence proof and resources...then maybe we believe anything you say you stubborn son of a gun.....nightie night! 😄
It kind of went like this from everyone but fanboys who had watched a film 🙁
Originally posted by Hit_and_Miss
Lol! a bunch of ali fans whos only comment through the thread was "bruce hasn't any recorded fights to his name"and when confronted with this moot point, bashed me...
Yer I really lost here...😆 sad that this means soo much to you...
It's a bit sad really you believe your funny squats work as well as weights.
🙂
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Thanks Advent to nail this guy totally lets look at his training - training taken from - Bruce Lee's own books sourced throughout by Mr Hess.References for Mr Hess's analysis and his qualifications and published work at the bottom
Bruce Lee is the personality most associated with the martial arts. Both
martial art enthusiasts and non-practioners consider the deceased actor as the ultimate martial artist. Although he did not compete in tournaments or submit to any empirical conventions wherein his ability could be objectively assessed, he is frequently referred to as a superior athlete and the strongest fighter "pound for pound." A close examination of his exercise regime and personal character reveal a committed athlete and martial artist but not to the mythic proportions usually ascribed to him. This article will review Lee's physical strength, aerobic capacity, and individual character to assess whether he should be considered the "best of the best".I. Physical strength.
Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed
an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using 95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the 25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males (Hatfield, 1993).
This type of estimation for the 1 repetition maximum is standard among
athletic trainers to assess the strength level of a wide range of athletes,
both professional and amateur.While some chart estimates may vary slightly from one to another, most are within approximately 10% of one another.
Some readers, who are accustomed to viewing Lee as possessing epic strength, may assert that Lee probably was not using his maximum ability at that time. It is therefore noted that this regime occurred prior to Lee's well-known back injury. Furthermore, if Lee was capable of performing the squat exercise with more than 95 pounds for 10 repetitions, one must question why this was part of his established routine or, alternatively, why he would be committing himself to a method of underachievement by using too low an amount of weight to stimulate the greatest strength gains possible.
To further demonstrate this below-average lower body strength, the estimated
130 pound maximum estimate would mean Lee was not prepared for plyometric training (a type of explosiveness exercise) which requires the ability to squat a minimum of 1.5 times the body weight (Allerheiligen, 1994).In other words, at an approximate body weight of 140 pounds, Lee would need to have squatted 210 pounds to engage in plyometric training based on recognized standards for training of athletes by today's standards.
Lee's upper body strength is another matter altogether and, when understood from a sport science perspective, partially explains his on-screen appeal. Once again, according to the program used during his 1965 stay in Hong Kong, Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class.From a training perspective, one must question how a discrepancy of this proportion, between his upper and lower body strength, evolved in Lee's training. Nevertheless, it demonstrates that his upper body strength was developed to its maximum potential.
Numerous observers of Bruce Lee, such as deceased Kenpo master Ed Parker, have stated Lee was perhaps the strongest "pound for pound" martial artist. Sport science can confirm this possibility. Numerous assessments of athletes throughout the past few decades have confirmed that smaller athletes are proportionately stronger than larger ones.This is due to the fact that a muscle's maximum contractile force is proportional to its cross-sectional area.In laymen's terms, this means that a smaller athlete has a higher strength to mass ratio than larger athletes.
Stated practically, as body size increases, body mass increases more rapidly than does muscle strength. In a colloquial sense, it could be said this is similar to the "law of diminishing returns." Certain martial art film stars such as Jean Claude Van Damme and Jeff Speakman may look better due to their mass, but their actual strength, in proportion to body weight, would be less than a relatively light person such as Lee.Incredible speed is inherent to superior strength at a low body weight.
Since Lee never weighed more than 143 pounds yet possessed superior upper body strength in the 100th percentile, this would account for the lightening speed he demonstrated on film. With more mass, he would not have been as fast and would not have appeared so on film.II. Aerobic capacity.
Lee was known to advocate running as the best cardiovascular exercise (Lee, 1975) and is reported to have run 2 miles in 15 minutes or 6 miles in 45 minutes (Storm, 1986; Lee, 1989).In either case, this would mean an approximate pace of a 7 minute 30 second mile. This pace equates to a VO2 max of approximately 50 ml/kg/min (Noakes, 1991). The VO2 max is a method employed by sport scientists to estimate an individual's maximum capacity to use oxygen during extended exercise.
The average VO2 max among healthy young men is between 45 and 55. Lee's estimated value of 50, based on his running times, would place him squarely in the middle of average healthy young men. The values among elite runners and cross-country skiers is usually a range between 75 and 85 ml/kg/min. In other words, Lee's aerobic capacity was quite average. Once again, certain readers who are accustomed to viewing Lee in epic proportions may assert that Lee was not running his fastest and was capable of more. Considering his personality, if this were true it arguably would have been publicized somewhere.
In contrast to Lee's estimated aerobic capacity, a Canadian research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race. It is a curious notion, therefore, that Lee was considered to be an aerobic phenomenon. Current elite kickboxing competitors register higher aerobic capacity than did Bruce Lee.III.Personal Character.
The great karate master Gichin Funakoshi stated that martial artists should show great concern for family and relationships. "The mind of the true karateka should be imbued with (family) concern before he turns his attention to his body and the refinement of his technique" (Funakoshi, 1975).
In contrast, Lee is reported to have been involved in several extramarital affairs and, in fact, died in the apartment of a woman with whom he has intimately involved (Beeckler, 1996).
Lee also died without a will (intestate) which left his widow with almost a decade of legal battles to settle the matter of his estate. While some may argue that his early, unanticipated, death would have precluded finalizing a will, Lee was conscious enough of his own mortality that he purchased significant amounts of life insurance just months prior to his death.
And while Funakoshi admonishes martial artists to render honor to their families before refining themselves, when Bruce Lee did refine himself physically it was not in a wholly honorable fashion. In addition to the prescription medications Cortisone and Dilantin, he is also reported to have used anabolic steroids and diuretics to achieve his physique (Beeckler, 1996). It is also documented that he was a user of marijuana during the final three years of his life and it was discovered in his body during the autopsy.Why the Best of the Best?
Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone. Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood court?
Today's martial athletes can demonstrate their abilities in an empirical
manner. For example, the IMPAX instrument records the total of punches and kicks delivered in a certain period of time and the total force of a strike or kick. The elite kick boxers surveyed in the earlier referenced study were objectively assessed regarding their aerobic and anaerobic capacity as well as maximum knee torque. In other words, the tools exist today to determine who is the best of the best amongmartial artists. continued in next post
🙂
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
continued from last post 🙂For better or worse, Lee escaped objective evaluation.
It's tremendously subjective but Bruce Lee is arguably considered the most noteworthy martial artist due to his magnetism on film. Regardless of any opinion about his actual martial art talent, or lack of empirical
demonstration regarding his ability, he expressed himself on the screen in a manner that no martial artist has equaled. And, by combining his upper body strength and light body weight, he possessed uncanny speed that visually made believers of anyone who saw him in action.Reassessing the Usefulness of the Bruce Lee Myth
In one sense, Lee is forever a tremendous asset to the martial art community as his image and myth draws people to the arts. These fledgling martial artists may then be retained for more noble and enduring reasons than a desire to emulate someone whose example is questionable upon closer examination.
Once a martial artist reviews the reality of Lee's strength, aerobic capacity and personal character, a sober question must be addressed: should Lee's myth be actively deconstructed among novice martial artists? Perhaps not. That may be a function of maturity and be better emphasized in the later stages of training and spiritual development within the arts. Instead, people need a visual image to connect to and, until they begin to see their own selves in growing competency, may need the myth of Bruce Lee to sustain their training efforts.References
Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (70)
Wathen, Dan (1994). Load Assignment. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (436)
Hatfield, Fredrick C., Ph. D. (1993). Fitness: The Complete Guide. International Sport Sciences Association, California. (119) .
Allerheiligen, William B. (1994). Speed Development and Plyometric Training. In Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning. Human Kinetics, Illinois. (321)
Lee, Bruce (1975). Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Ohara, Burbank, California. ( )
Storm, Mitch; Black Belt Magazine, The Editors (1986). The Legendary Bruce Lee. Ohara, Burbank, CA. (53)
Lee, Linda (1989). The Bruce Lee Story. Ohara Publications, California. (54)
Noakes, Timothy, M.D. (1991). The Lore of Running. Leisure Press, Champaign, Illinois. (42)
Tiidus, Peter M.; Zabukovec, Randy (1995). "Physiological and Anthropometric Profile of Elite Kickboxers". Journal of Strength and Conditioning research, (November) 240-242.
Funakoshi, Gichin (1975). Karate-Do: My Way of Life. Kodansha International, Tokyo, Japan. (102)
Beeckler, Tom (1996). Unsettled Matters: The Life and Death of Bruce Lee. Gilderoy Publications, Lompoc, California. (144; 182)
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: In addition to the martial arts, Mr. Hess is a licensed cycling coach who regularly works with successful endurance athletes with tiny vertical jumps. He is the author of Total Quality Martial Arts: Pathways to Continuous Improvement.
Lee sure was strong 🙂
Keep the faith 🙂
Stay Whirly 🤘
🙂
Originally posted by Evil Genius
Ok,
I'm tired of all the retardation going on in this thread about Bruce Lee.
Lets look at the facts and find out what makes him so great.
Some people say he could punch through phonebooks and do a one-inch punch and knock someone back 20 feet. Fact: there is videotape footage of him demonstrating his 1-inch punch at a karate tournament. He has a guy standing flat-footed with a chair about 5 feet behind him. He hits the guy and the guy falls back into the chair. Big deal. I could head-butt, knee, elbow, punch, or kick someone that far and I have before.
You claim that Bruce Lee was a great fighter, if not one of the greatest ever and some have said that he could easily beat todays top fighters.....the men of No Holds Barred competition like Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, or Sakuraba.
fact: There is no documented footage of Bruce Lee ever being in a fight. There are a few eyewitnesses who saw him fight another chinese guy at his Kwoon and the results were unanimous... neither of the fighters was able to finish the other one off.
His Wing Chun brothers claim he got in brawls in Hong Kong, but it was with other punk kids in the back alleys of Hong Kong when Lee was skipping school or was out causing trouble.
When asked if he would fight any of the top full-contact Karate guys of his time, Lee always mumbled something about not being ready, or that he was working on some new technique.
fact: We have all been in brawls in high school, does that make us the worlds best fighters?
Also, Judo Gene Lebell easily put lee in a submission hold and treated him like a rag doll. People witnessed this event. At the time Gene Lebell was around 15 years or so older than Bruce Lee. Imagine what a guy like Sakuraba or Ken Shamrock could do to Lee if both were in their primes.And lastly you say he was a great actor and Kung Fu movie star.
Fact: His acting sucked. He never won an academy award or any type of recognition for his acting for that matter. But I give you this, he was one hell of a Kung Fu star and his movies rock! He was also a great martial artist and innovator, and his JKD will probably live on forever.
🙂
Originally posted by Zarathustra
It never stops being relevant that Lee doesn't have a fight record. Theories, which Lee certainly had a good number of, are useless to us if they are not proven effective by actual application. Hit and Miss's repeated attempts to portray great boxers like George Foreman and Joe Lewis as static brawlers are not only inaccurate, but offensive to some of the greatest fighters of the past century. One wonders, if boxing is so devoid of skill, why the legendary Bruce Lee you think so highly of chose to draw on that very sport, along with fencing, to improve upon his Wing Chun Kung Fu?
Again and again: Lee trained to fight boxers. So what? Every man Muhammad Ali ever fought had trained against boxers: most of them were excellent at fighting boxers. That didn't stop Ali from knocking out a great many of them.Is it conceivable that a man Lee's size could defeat Ali? It's possible, but that man would have to be a much, much better pound for pound fighter than Ali to manage it. Lee's lack of any fight record makes it impossible to ascertain whether or not he was capable of such a feat. Lacking such evidence (only successful application of his skills: hence fights, are sufficient), one must assume that Ali would come out on top because big guys beat smaller guys and the onus is upon the smaller man to prove otherwise.
One way or another, his ideas were revolutionary: unfortunately, mixed martial arts didn't really become a reality until Royce Gracie sprang onto the scene in the first UFC's, proving that strikers really did need to learn grappling if they were to be truly effective fighters.Anyway, the whole point is moot: Gracie would tear either of these guys apart inside of three minutes.