ROTS Republic versus Sith (KOTOR)

2 million troopers isn't a lot its hardly anything I really hate the number they give in AOTC... 200.000 finished a million more on the way, so they have less troops then Russia had in WWII how is that going to safe galaxy's?

Now the technology probably isn't all that different simply because well it doesn't seem to be/

Now Clone warriors will kill those stupid Sith warriors, well probably.. Unless of course you actually think those 1.2 million troops wasn't a mistake in the speech of the cloner then the clones would get owned because they have to few troops.

Jedi Vs Dark Jedi. I'm giving this to Revan his side because of superior numbers and training

Now it kinda all depends on how big the army's were and how many troopers both had.. but if the republic really only had 1.2 million then they are dead

Think of it this way. Revan was a military genious. Would he go against superior firepower and superior numbers conventionally? No. What would he do?

Revan would be smart enough to conduct a guerilla war against the Republic. He would most likely just use a few outer rim planets as bases and would go on raids against the Republic. If he did it this way, he would own the republic.

Originally posted by Fishy
[B]2 million troopers isn't a lot its hardly anything I really hate the number they give in AOTC... 200.000 finished a million more on the way, so they have less troops then Russia had in WWII how is that going to safe galaxy's?

Well. You have to keep in mind that those clone warriors were only trained to fight and did nothing else their whole lifetime.
This guys should have the same amount of "skill" as Jango/Boba Fett. I don't want to imagine how much destruction 1.2 mio of them could bring to a single battle field. I guess this would be an "no one gets out here alive" game.

Now the technology probably isn't all that different simply because well it doesn't seem to be

Well. It doesn't seem so right. But just compare the Leviathan (pride of the old Republics navy) to one of the Republics attack cruisers used by the Republic during RotS

Leviathan weapons:
20 laser cannons
4 turbo laser cannons
2 Ion canons
1 tractor beam

Republic attack cruiser:
8 heavy turbo lasers
2 medium dual turbo lasers
52 laser cannons
4 proton torpedo launchers
6 tractor beams

Republics fleet is lightyears ahead when it comes to firepower.

Now Clone warriors will kill those stupid Sith warriors, well probably.. Unless of course you actually think those 1.2 million troops wasn't a mistake in the speech of the cloner then the clones would get owned because they have to few troops.

As I said...another question of firepower. AT-ST or AT-AT like walkers + high skilled troops against what ? This is no question of troop numbers. Firepower only firepower 😉

Jedi Vs Dark Jedi. I'm giving this to Revan his side because of superior numbers and training

Superior numbers ? I realy can't tell how much Jedi it would be against how much Dark Jedi. And I'm not sure about that "superior" training. Jedi teachings nearly remained the same from the golden era to the RotS era. And you have to keep in mind that the Dark Jedi would have to fight against Yoda's superior skills (800 years of training), Maces Vaapad, Obi-Wans luck, Anakin "Chosen One" Skywalker and maybe our two Sith friends Dooku and Sidious would fight among them since Sidious won't hand out "his" work to another Sith Lord.
I'd say this would be a hard work for the Dark Jedi and Revan even if they have superior numbers.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well. You have to keep in mind that those clone warriors were only trained to fight and did nothing else their whole lifetime.
This guys should have the same amount of "skill" as Jango/Boba Fett. I don't want to imagine how much destruction 1.2 mio of them could bring to a single battle field. I guess this would be an "no one gets out here alive" game.

On a battlefield it would be nice, but fight in Republic Space over thousands of systems and planets and 1.2 million is nothing

Well. It doesn't seem so right. But just compare the Leviathan (pride of the old Republics navy) to one of the Republics attack cruisers used by the Republic during RotS

Leviathan weapons:
20 laser cannons
4 turbo laser cannons
2 Ion canons
1 tractor beam

Republic attack cruiser:
8 heavy turbo lasers
2 medium dual turbo lasers
52 laser cannons
4 proton torpedo launchers
6 tractor beams

Republics fleet is lightyears ahead when it comes to firepower.

Yeah thats going to suck for them, still if the number thing is true that won't matter and you can sure as hell be sure that Revan will try whatever he can to avoid a head on fight. The Vietnam army didn't even come close to the firepower of the US and they still kicked ass. So it doesn't mean everything, it is a great advantage for the republic however and will give them a great edge.

As I said...another question of firepower. AT-ST or AT-AT like walkers + high skilled troops against what ? This is no question of troop numbers. Firepower only firepower 😉

Army's of battledroids along with troops. It will be hard to take an AT-AT down with shit like that but it should be doable, besides AT-AT's didn't exist back then... Something like that did but not as effective or powerful.

Superior numbers ? I realy can't tell how much Jedi it would be against how much Dark Jedi. And I'm not sure about that "superior" training. Jedi teachings nearly remained the same from the golden era to the RotS era. And you have to keep in mind that the Dark Jedi would have to fight against Yoda's superior skills (800 years of training), Maces Vaapad, Obi-Wans luck, Anakin "Chosen One" Skywalker and maybe our two Sith friends Dooku and Sidious would fight among them since Sidious won't hand out "his" work to another Sith Lord.
I'd say this would be a hard work for the Dark Jedi and Revan even if they have superior numbers.

Superior training? Well yeah, the Jedi in that era were trained more for fighting then the Rots Era Jedi. Who were trained more for keeping the peace, they learned to fight in the clone wars, but they probably suffered heavy casualty's because they weren't used to fighting as much as the Old Republic Jedi were. Training methods also changed, the Kotor era Jedi did not have a single master under who they had to train. One was appointed to them but they could learn from other masters unlike the Rots era masters who all had one padawan.

Now the clone wars were tough, but I personally think the Mandelorian wars were a lot harder because they fought against Mandelorians who did have Basalisk war droids and god knows what else, the Mandelorians were far more powerful then droids were, and a lot harder to beat.

Now about that Yoda thing, well you have Revan there... Then you have Anakin, Malak. Obi, Bandon Mace well that one is going to be harder but I'm sure a few Jedi could destroy him and there would definitely be a few of them to fight them. But the Jedi around Kotor did have a lot more troops just look at the game you encounter more Jedi on those four planets you go to then there are in all 3 PT movies combined and we are only talking about Rots here when a few of them have died out.

Now you also mentioned Sidious. You can't really count him or Dooku because they were on the other side, if you could however then it would only be easier for Revan his side, because you would suddenly have a fleet three times as big a lot more troops and a lot more Jedi to fight with.

The only real advantage the Rots Republic has is the power of their fleets meaning that Revan would actually have to use ambushes sneak attacks and shit like that, something that he could probably pull of, but somethings thats going to be damn hard for him and if he only has the 3th of the republic fleet its going to be damn hard and perhaps even for somebody like him impossible.

Originally posted by Fishy
On a battlefield it would be nice, but fight in Republic Space over thousands of systems and planets and 1.2 million is nothing

Still I don't know how big Revans army would be. Most of his troops (even the Dark Jedi) were killed on Malachor V when the Exile activated the Mass Shadow Generator. Also most of his ships got destroyed. And there was only one year between the end of the Mandalorian War and the beginning of the Jedi Civil War. And the topic here is Republic beginning of RotS vs Sith Empire BEGINNING of the Jedi Civil war. Do you think Revan had such huge amount of troops left from the Mandalorian Wars + the droids/ships created by the Star Forge ?

Yeah thats going to suck for them, still if the number thing is true that won't matter and you can sure as hell be sure that Revan will try whatever he can to avoid a head on fight. The Vietnam army didn't even come close to the firepower of the US and they still kicked ass. So it doesn't mean everything, it is a great advantage for the republic however and will give them a great edge.

Well. I don't see how Revan could manage to avoid head on fight. He might use some guerilla tactics here but look what he did in the Mandalorian Wars. Sacrificing huge amounts of his own troops (in some situations 10 rebuplic army members for one mandalorian) to archieve victorys. And yes. He might be a tactical genious but who would command the Republic forces ? The Jedi council. That would be people like:

Yoda (800 years old...he should be smart or wise enough to take some tactical actions here)
Mace Windu (nothing to say here I think)
Obi-Wan Kenobi (same as Mace)
Shaak-Ti (defended Kamino from a seperatist attack, defeated seperatists on Brentaal IV)
Kit Fisto (defeated the Quarren Separatist League on Mon Calamari)
Pablo-Jill (managed to pacify Ord Mantell for some time)
Ki-Adi-Mundi (extremly logical because of his binary brain structure - hard to "outsmart" that one)

I guess Revan + Malak would simply get beaten by brainpower here. 9 brains usually do better than 2.

Army's of battledroids along with troops. It will be hard to take an AT-AT down with shit like that but it should be doable, besides AT-AT's didn't exist back then... Something like that did but not as effective or powerful.

Well...
SPHA-Ts (that things shooting down the Seperatist ship in AotC)
AT-TEs (also seen in the battle of Geonosis during AotC)
AT-APs (can be seen on Kashyyyk during RotS)
AT-RTs (something like AT-ST for one person - also can be seen on Kashyyyk)

Yes. All this things do not have the firepower of AT-ATs but at least they all have special anti-personal blasters besides one "heavy" weapon.
And you would have some ARC troops trained by Jango Fett personally with special equipments. Imagine 300 "real" Fetts (that means Mandalorian fighters with improved equipment) moving into battle...

Superior training? Well yeah, the Jedi in that era were trained more for fighting then the Rots Era Jedi. Who were trained more for keeping the peace, they learned to fight in the clone wars, but they probably suffered heavy casualty's because they weren't used to fighting as much as the Old Republic Jedi were. Training methods also changed, the Kotor era Jedi did not have a single master under who they had to train. One was appointed to them but they could learn from other masters unlike the Rots era masters who all had one padawan.

You should keep in mind that the Sith Empire had disappeared from the Galaxy for a millenium before the times of KOTOR (from 5,000 BBY with Naga Sadow to 3,996 BBY when the Great Sith War started). So the Jedi did not have any reason to keep trained in combat since they thought the Sith had been destroyed. It is in fact the same situation that we have before TPM. Before the events of KOTOR the very Old Republic Jedi were also trained for keeping peace since that is the basic thinking behind the Jedi Order (that would be what Yoda calls "Form Zero"😉

Now the clone wars were tough, but I personally think the Mandelorian wars were a lot harder because they fought against Mandelorians who did have Basalisk war droids and god knows what else, the Mandelorians were far more powerful then droids were, and a lot harder to beat.

I agree with you the Mandalorian Wars were a lot harder. But...there was (2 years before TPM I think) the Battle of Galidraan were a Jedi strike force lead by Dooku killed all remaining Mandalors except Jango Fett. Well I don't know exactly how many fighters there were on both sides but I don't think the RotS Jedi are that weak compared to KOTOR ones.

Now about that Yoda thing, well you have Revan there... Then you have Anakin, Malak. Obi, Bandon Mace well that one is going to be harder but I'm sure a few Jedi could destroy him and there would definitely be a few of them to fight them. But the Jedi around Kotor did have a lot more troops just look at the game you encounter more Jedi on those four planets you go to then there are in all 3 PT movies combined and we are only talking about Rots here when a few of them have died out.

Yes. The Exile has to fight tons of Dark Jedi but most of them joined Revan DURING the Jedi Civil War and not before (and the ones that did before probably most got killed when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated). So in this threads Republic vs. Sith Empire situation there will be not as many Dark Jedi as you have to fight in KOTOR II. And well...the Exile defeated many of them, also Kyle Katarn did in "Jedi Knight" (well...that were "new" Dark Jedi). But I think both (Exile and Kyle) can not be compared with people like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan.
And the Dark Jedi under Revan and Revan himself (as I want some attention on this point) might only know the first 3 forms of lightsaber combat (form I as basic, form II for lightsaber duels, form III against blaster users) so a Ataru fighter like Yoda might totaly surprise them, a Shien / Djem So user like Anakin also; not to mention what Mace would do to them with his Vaapad.

Also I have to admit that most of the Republic Jedi will go down here since most of them are Form VI practitioners. No chance against "real" dangers in combat (all Form VI user die in the arena fight on Geonosis).

The only real advantage the Rots Republic has is the power of their fleets meaning that Revan would actually have to use ambushes sneak attacks and shit like that, something that he could probably pull of, but somethings thats going to be damn hard for him and if he only has the 3th of the republic fleet its going to be damn hard and perhaps even for somebody like him impossible.

I'd say it is impossible as he has to outsmart the complete Jedi Council (with Yoda in it) in military tactics after the clone wars (remember that the "old" Jedi Council did not take part in the Mandalorian Wars). And I simply don't know what targets he could have attacked. Only Coruscant and Karmino and both would end up in head on combat which Revan would lose. Some "sneak attacks" might not be that useful and again I'm asking myself against what targets ? He might be able to send some Sith Assasins or Dark Jedi to kill people like Yoda and Mace but they would get screwed (see suggestion about lightsaber combat above).

No chance for Revan and the Sith Empire here.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Still I don't know how big Revans army would be. Most of his troops (even the Dark Jedi) were killed on Malachor V when the Exile activated the Mass Shadow Generator. Also most of his ships got destroyed. And there was only one year between the end of the Mandalorian War and the beginning of the Jedi Civil War. And the topic here is Republic beginning of RotS vs Sith Empire BEGINNING of the Jedi Civil war. Do you think Revan had such huge amount of troops left from the Mandalorian Wars + the droids/ships created by the Star Forge?

Only the troops Revan didn't think would be loyal, he still had about a third of the republic under him and most of the Jedi did join him. Revan was corrupting them even before Malachor.

Well. I don't see how Revan could manage to avoid head on fight. He might use some guerilla tactics here but look what he did in the Mandalorian Wars. Sacrificing huge amounts of his own troops (in some situations 10 rebuplic army members for one mandalorian) to archieve victorys.

Yeah well he had to sacrifice planets and city's to defeat the Mandelorians who used brutal tactics. The Jedi would not use tactics like that and would be faced with Revan who would. The Mandelorians were incredibly successful against the Republic because they used tactics the Republic couldn't think of. Tactics that the Jedi refused to use. Revan used the same but perfected them. Using tactics like that against the republic could be incredibly effective. He does not necessarily has to face the army's then head on. Destroy key planets away their fleets (which there are bound to be a lot from) and you weaken them tremendously.

And yes. He might be a tactical genious but who would command the Republic forces ? The Jedi council. That would be people like:

Yoda (800 years old...he should be smart or wise enough to take some tactical actions here)
Mace Windu (nothing to say here I think)
Obi-Wan Kenobi (same as Mace)
Shaak-Ti (defended Kamino from a seperatist attack, defeated seperatists on Brentaal IV)
Kit Fisto (defeated the Quarren Separatist League on Mon Calamari)
Pablo-Jill (managed to pacify Ord Mantell for some time)
Ki-Adi-Mundi (extremly logical because of his binary brain structure - hard to "outsmart" that one)

I guess Revan + Malak would simply get beaten by brainpower here. 9 brains usually do better than 2.

In history one commander has always done better then more. Revan would command the fleets and it would be a shit load of work, but its been proven that he can do it. And he would do it in perfection, several people are going to have several opinions which means debates arguing coming to a mutual agreement. Revan doesn't have to do all that shit, it would be better if they just had one of the Jedi lead the army's against Revan. And none of the Jedi from that time had the experience Revan had. The other Jedi councillors and shit should be field generals like Malak was but they should not determine the strategy of the battlefield that only works against them.

Yes. All this things do not have the firepower of AT-ATs but at least they all have special anti-personal blasters besides one "heavy" weapon.
And you would have some ARC troops trained by Jango Fett personally with special equipments. Imagine 300 "real" Fetts (that means Mandalorian fighters with improved equipment) moving into battle...

Oh yeah that would be hard, but the republic under Revan has done it before against Mandelorians. And those fought in less conventional ways. They had no problem bombing the entire battlefield including their own troops if it would take down the republic army's. Revan wouldn't have had a problem with that either the Jedi council would have. I do not think the clones are a real advantage the fire power of the machines might be. But I really honestly have no idea as to what kind of fire power the weapons of Kotor had... Or what kind of weapons they had in the first place. You never see them in the games.

You should keep in mind that the Sith Empire had disappeared from the Galaxy for a millenium before the times of KOTOR (from 5,000 BBY with Naga Sadow to 3,996 BBY when the Great Sith War started). So the Jedi did not have any reason to keep trained in combat since they thought the Sith had been destroyed. It is in fact the same situation that we have before TPM. Before the events of KOTOR the very Old Republic Jedi were also trained for keeping peace since that is the basic thinking behind the Jedi Order (that would be what Yoda calls "Form Zero"😉

Old republic Jedi did fight a lot, they had a huge war only forty years earlier.

I agree with you the Mandalorian Wars were a lot harder. But...there was (2 years before TPM I think) the Battle of Galidraan were a Jedi strike force lead by Dooku killed all remaining Mandalors except Jango Fett. Well I don't know exactly how many fighters there were on both sides but I don't think the RotS Jedi are that weak compared to KOTOR ones.

No, they fought but obviously not as much as those Mandelorians were obviously not as capable as the Mandelorians in the Kotor time were, or at least not with the numbers... Otherwise they wouldn't have died in one battle by a team of Jedi. It would have taken all the Jedi. And like you said Dooku lead them, meaning Dooku was seen as one of their greatest if not their greatest military leader, meaning that they by the time of ROTS have lost their greatest General to the other side.

Yes. The Exile has to fight tons of Dark Jedi but most of them joined Revan DURING the Jedi Civil War and not before (and the ones that did before probably most got killed when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated). So in this threads Republic vs. Sith Empire situation there will be not as many Dark Jedi as you have to fight in KOTOR II. And well...the Exile defeated many of them, also Kyle Katarn did in "Jedi Knight" (well...that were "new" Dark Jedi). But I think both (Exile and Kyle) can not be compared with people like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan.

I was actually referring to Revan but well the Exile works as well. Although Revan faced a lot more. Meaning still that there were more Jedi. No sure they weren't all present from the start but a lot of them were. Revan converted many but he also had many to start with seeing as many of the order (said by dozens of people) left to join Revan and Malak in the Mandelorian wars. There had to be a great amount of Jedi under Revan his control even at the start of the war, that number only increased which is good for him but which means absolutely nothing here... So I don't know why I said that either 😛

And the Dark Jedi under Revan and Revan himself (as I want some attention on this point) might only know the first 3 forms of lightsaber combat (form I as basic, form II for lightsaber duels, form III against blaster users) so a Ataru fighter like Yoda might totaly surprise them, a Shien / Djem So user like Anakin also; not to mention what Mace would do to them with his Vaapad.

Seeing as the Exile learned 7 from the Jedi Masters who had to have known them for quite some time, this is just not true...Well except for Vaapad but that could be countered.

Also I have to admit that most of the Republic Jedi will go down here since most of them are Form VI practitioners. No chance against "real" dangers in combat (all Form VI user die in the arena fight on Geonosis).

Cool 🙂

I'd say it is impossible as he has to outsmart the complete Jedi Council (with Yoda in it) in military tactics after the clone wars (remember that the "old" Jedi Council did not take part in the Mandalorian Wars). And I simply don't know what targets he could have attacked. Only Coruscant and Karmino and both would end up in head on combat which Revan would lose. Some "sneak attacks" might not be that useful and again I'm asking myself against what targets ? He might be able to send some Sith assassins or Dark Jedi to kill people like Yoda and Mace but they would get screwed (see suggestion about lightsaber combat above).

No chance for Revan and the Sith Empire here.

Now as I said that lightsaber thing was wrong... So assassins could be very effective against the masters and if Revan played it right which I'm sure he could he would manage to send those assassins. Also you could just send small task forces to take out the more vital area's of the republic which I'm sure are numerous. The most important battles are still fought at the most important places always have been always will be.

Now I do not think Revan Will win this easily if at all, however I am just trying to say that all that Revan would have to do is be smart try to avoid mayor space battles and use strike teams to take out vital Jedi and republic commanders one by one by one before he moves on to the real battle. And as we all know if there is one thing Revan can do its taking out Jedi.

Fishy brings a good point.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Still I don't know how big Revans army would be. Most of his troops (even the Dark Jedi) were killed on Malachor V when the Exile activated the Mass Shadow Generator. Also most of his ships got destroyed. And there was only one year between the end of the Mandalorian War and the beginning of the Jedi Civil War. And the topic here is Republic beginning of RotS vs Sith Empire BEGINNING of the Jedi Civil war. Do you think Revan had such huge amount of troops left from the Mandalorian Wars + the droids/ships created by the Star Forge ?

Well. I don't see how Revan could manage to avoid head on fight. He might use some guerilla tactics here but look what he did in the Mandalorian Wars. Sacrificing huge amounts of his own troops (in some situations 10 rebuplic army members for one mandalorian) to archieve victorys. And yes. He might be a tactical genious but who would command the Republic forces ? The Jedi council. That would be people like:

Yoda (800 years old...he should be smart or wise enough to take some tactical actions here)
Mace Windu (nothing to say here I think)
Obi-Wan Kenobi (same as Mace)
Shaak-Ti (defended Kamino from a seperatist attack, defeated seperatists on Brentaal IV)
Kit Fisto (defeated the Quarren Separatist League on Mon Calamari)
Pablo-Jill (managed to pacify Ord Mantell for some time)
Ki-Adi-Mundi (extremly logical because of his binary brain structure - hard to "outsmart" that one)

I guess Revan + Malak would simply get beaten by brainpower here. 9 brains usually do better than 2.

Well.A-Ts (that things shooting down the Seperatist ship in AotC)
AT-TEs (also seen in the battle of Geonosis during AotC)
AT-APs (can be seen on Kashyyyk during RotS)
AT-RTs (somet..
SPHhing like AT-ST for one person - also can be seen on Kashyyyk)

Yes. All this things do not have the firepower of AT-ATs but at least they all have special anti-personal blasters besides one "heavy" weapon.
And you would have some ARC troops trained by Jango Fett personally with special equipments. Imagine 300 "real" Fetts (that means Mandalorian fighters with improved equipment) moving into battle...

You should keep in mind that the Sith Empire had disappeared from the Galaxy for a millenium before the times of KOTOR (from 5,000 BBY with Naga Sadow to 3,996 BBY when the Great Sith War started). So the Jedi did not have any reason to keep trained in combat since they thought the Sith had been destroyed. It is in fact the same situation that we have before TPM. Before the events of KOTOR the very Old Republic Jedi were also trained for keeping peace since that is the basic thinking behind the Jedi Order (that would be what Yoda calls "Form Zero"😉

I agree with you the Mandalorian Wars were a lot harder. But...there was (2 years before TPM I think) the Battle of Galidraan were a Jedi strike force lead by Dooku killed all remaining Mandalors except Jango Fett. Well I don't know exactly how many fighters there were on both sides but I don't think the RotS Jedi are that weak compared to KOTOR ones.

Yes. The Exile has to fight tons of Dark Jedi but most of them joined Revan DURING the Jedi Civil War and not before (and the ones that did before probably most got killed when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated). So in this threads Republic vs. Sith Empire situation there will be not as many Dark Jedi as you have to fight in KOTOR II. And well...the Exile defeated many of them, also Kyle Katarn did in "Jedi Knight" (well...that were "new" Dark Jedi). But I think both (Exile and Kyle) can not be compared with people like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan.
And the Dark Jedi under Revan and Revan himself (as I want some attention on this point) might only know the first 3 forms of lightsaber combat (form I as basic, form II for lightsaber duels, form III against blaster users) so a Ataru fighter like Yoda might totaly surprise them, a Shien / Djem So user like Anakin also; not to mention what Mace would do to them with his Vaapad.

Also I have to admit that most of the Republic Jedi will go down here since most of them are Form VI practitioners. No chance against "real" dangers in combat (all Form VI user die in the arena fight on Geonosis).

I'd say it is impossible as he has to outsmart the complete Jedi Council (with Yoda in it) in military tactics after the clone wars (remember that the "old" Jedi Council did not take part in the Mandalorian Wars). And I simply don't know what targets he could have attacked. Only Coruscant and Karmino and both would end up in head on combat which Revan would lose. Some "sneak attacks" might not be that useful and again I'm asking myself against what targets ? He might be able to send some Sith Assasins or Dark Jedi to kill people like Yoda and Mace but they would get screwed (see suggestion about lightsaber combat above).

No chance for Revan and the Sith Empire here.

Slow down person. You don't have a clue what your talking about. The Jedi Civil War wasn't until 5 years after the Mandalorian Wars and the Mass Shadow Generator only killed the troops Revan thought to be unloyal to him. And Revan was able to turn hundreds of Jedi and enough soldiers to man all the ships the Star Forge spat out in that five years.

And Revan wasn't the only commander to go rogue. He and all the Jedi (Excluding the Exile) who participated in the Mandalorian Wars went rogue from the Jedi.

And KOTOR 2 is AFTER the Jedi Civil War. So all of that is irrelevant.

The technology is out classed, but Revan isn't stupid and he wouldn't try to take those on unless he knew he could take them out.

And the Sith Empire was gone, but they're was multitudes of Dark Jedi during that time and the Jedi who went with Revan killed numerous Mandalorians.

And the thing about the attack on the Mandalorians by the Jedi before TPM, the Mandalorians weren't even close to what they were during the Mandalorian Wars.

And the Saber thing, all those forms except form 6 and Mace's extension Vaapad, was practiced in the time of Revan.

Himokun: The Jedi Civil War DID start 1 year after the Mandalorian wars and it lasted for 3 years, two under Lord Revan's rule and the other under Malak's. 5 years after its end is when KOTOR 2 begins. On everything else I think you're right.

Originally posted by Fishy
Only the troops Revan didn't think would be loyal, he still had about a third of the republic under him and most of the Jedi did join him. Revan was corrupting them even before Malachor.

Ok. But this is no answer about army size or how many Dark Jedi Revan realy would have under his command.

Yeah well he had to sacrifice planets and city's to defeat the Mandelorians who used brutal tactics. The Jedi would not use tactics like that and would be faced with Revan who would. The Mandelorians were incredibly successful against the Republic because they used tactics the Republic couldn't think of. Tactics that the Jedi refused to use. Revan used the same but perfected them. Using tactics like that against the republic could be incredibly effective. He does not necessarily has to face the army's then head on. Destroy key planets away their fleets (which there are bound to be a lot from) and you weaken them tremendously.

You did say that Revan probably would have 1/3 of the Republics fleet. Their a only two relevant planets the Republic has to protect: Kamino (since the Republic army comes from there) and Coruscant. You can command 2/3 of the Republics fleet to defend those two planets (1/3 for Coruscant, 1/3 for Kamino) and take 1/3 to chase Revan. Since the Republic ships have the greater firepower Revan won't be able to attack Coruscant/Kamino and he can't beat the fleet that is chasing him.

In history one commander has always done better then more. Revan would command the fleets and it would be a shit load of work, but its been proven that he can do it. And he would do it in perfection, several people are going to have several opinions which means debates arguing coming to a mutual agreement. Revan doesn't have to do all that shit, it would be better if they just had one of the Jedi lead the army's against Revan. And none of the Jedi from that time had the experience Revan had. The other Jedi councillors and shit should be field generals like Malak was but they should not determine the strategy of the battlefield that only works against them.

I don't think the Council would argue here for years. They will most likely leave the last word to Yoda. And we can not argue about Yodas experience since he is 850 years old and commanded troops for 3 years in the Clone Wars.

Oh yeah that would be hard, but the republic under Revan has done it before against Mandelorians. And those fought in less conventional ways. They had no problem bombing the entire battlefield including their own troops if it would take down the republic army's. Revan wouldn't have had a problem with that either the Jedi council would have. I do not think the clones are a real advantage the fire power of the machines might be. But I really honestly have no idea as to what kind of fire power the weapons of Kotor had... Or what kind of weapons they had in the first place. You never see them in the games.

Well...I don't think that the ARC troopers would have any problems with "unusual" fighting since they are exactly dublicated Jango Fetts.

And "bombing the entire battlefield" would imply having the fleet in orbit facing the Republic fleet. That is no option here...and if so both armys are gone and you back to fleet vs fleet situation which the Republic will win easily.

I was actually referring to Revan but well the Exile works as well. Although Revan faced a lot more. Meaning still that there were more Jedi. No sure they weren't all present from the start but a lot of them were. Revan converted many but he also had many to start with seeing as many of the order (said by dozens of people) left to join Revan and Malak in the Mandelorian wars. There had to be a great amount of Jedi under Revan his control even at the start of the war, that number only increased which is good for him but which means absolutely nothing here... So I don't know why I said that either 😛

Well...I still can not say who will have more force users. The Jedi Order had great casualties during the Clone Wars but there might be thousands of Jedi alive in RotS times.

Seeing as the Exile learned 7 from the Jedi Masters who had to have known them for quite some time, this is just not true...Well except for Vaapad but that could be countered.

Sorry but in this point KOTOR is just going out of SW history. Ataru (form IV) is said to be developed in the last centuries of the Old Republic (so in Yodas times - you might even think that Yoda - or Yaddle - developed it to compensate lack of physical strength and range). So there is no way for KOTOR time Jedi to know this one and the forms that did come after it (V, VI and VII).

Another point is that Mace is said to be the first Jedi that mastered form VII. Do you realy think a combat form can exist 4000 years without one person can master it ?

I'd say that KOTOR is just out of history of SW universe here.

Now as I said that lightsaber thing was wrong... So assassins could be very effective against the masters and if Revan played it right which I'm sure he could he would manage to send those assassins. Also you could just send small task forces to take out the more vital area's of the republic which I'm sure are numerous. The most important battles are still fought at the most important places always have been always will be.

Even if that lightsaber thing is wrong there would be no assasin that can manage to kill people like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan. And yes...most important battles happen at the most important places which takes us back to Kamino and Coruscant. And an attack on Coruscant (that we can see at the beginning of RotS) will destroy Revans entire fleet (it destroyed almost the whole Seperatists fleet and that one was bigger than the one of Revan)

Now I do not think Revan Will win this easily if at all, however I am just trying to say that all that Revan would have to do is be smart try to avoid mayor space battles and use strike teams to take out vital Jedi and republic commanders one by one by one before he moves on to the real battle. And as we all know if there is one thing Revan can do its taking out Jedi.

Most people miss some points about Revans acts during the Jedi Civil War:

a)
He is not interested in just destroying industrial planets he will more likely use assasination droids (HK-47) or assassins to destabilize local, planet or sector governments. So I think there will be no "real" battles here or at least Revan would not realy sacrifice vital planets.

b)
He is focused on conversion and not on murder Jedi. That would be quiet hard for him dealing with RotS Jedi.

And he might have quite a hard time if he has to confront people like Yoda or Mace since they probably will survive any assassins. Keeping in mind that Revan never had to face a Jedi Master with "real" combat experience since the guys in the KOTOR era did not realy have "battelfront experience".

@HimoKun:
Mandalorian War ends 3960 BBY
Jedi Civil War starts 3959 BBY
ONE year for Revan to build ships with the Star Forge and corrupt Jedi to the Dark Side. Not five years.

Republic in ROTS is about to empire-ize. I say they win cause of Palpatine and Anakin

If they can kill off all the jedi, they can kill a few lowly sith demons

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
If they can kill off all the jedi, they can kill a few lowly sith demons

Most of the Jedi got killed while in mission by their own clone warriors. You can not compare that to a "real" battle. And at least it would be hundreds of Dark Jedi + Revan + Malak.

No. only the Jedi generals who were leading the clone troops died that way. You should actually pay attention to the movie rather than playing your stupid video games. Anakin killed hundreds, if not thousands in the temple, almost singlehandedly. (The clones alone obviously would have been no match, you saw what that one lowly padawan did right before he died)
And afterwards, thousands more were hunted down and killed by vader. this is confirmed by the EU as well as star wars itself:
"A young Jedi named Darth Vader helped the Empire hunt down and kill the Jedi knights. Now the Jedi are all but extinct" -Obi Wan
Plus these were the Jedi at their height, not after years of previous wars against people like Exar Kun and such.

Originally posted by Darth Crazo
No. only the Jedi generals who were leading the clone troops died that way. You should actually pay attention to the movie rather than playing your stupid video games. Anakin killed hundreds, if not thousands in the temple, almost singlehandedly. (The clones alone obviously would have been no match, you saw what that one lowly padawan did right before he died)
And afterwards, thousands more were hunted down and killed by vader. this is confirmed by the EU as well as star wars itself:
"A young Jedi named Darth Vader helped the Empire hunt down and kill the Jedi knights. Now the Jedi are all but extinct" -Obi Wan
Plus these were the Jedi at their height, not after years of previous wars against people like Exar Kun and such.

a)
There were more Jedi killed by clone warriors. Not only the masters. You should keep in mind that there were Jedi Knights and Padawans also killed in mission that you don't see on screen.

b)
Yeah. Anakin did kill some people during the temple raids ? Hundreds or thousands ? Haha. He attacked the temple with a huge amount of clone warriors and most of the people in the temple were Jedi Knights or Padawans. And as you advice me to watch the movies: You can see Anakin/Vader getting defeated by Obi-Wan in the end of RotS.

c)
What you quoted is Obi-Wan telling a lie to young Luke in ANH. And yes...Vader "helped" the Empire and did not do all the work alone.

d)
Not after years of war ? And YOU tell ME to watch the movies ? What about the clone wars during which half the Jedi Order got killed ? Take a look at AotC and count the dead Jedi in that pretty arena fight. And they are getting owned by droids.

Okay I agree w/ maybe point d. Point A is obviously false. The generals were the ones leading the troops. As you said in a later point, most knights and padawans were in the temple-which is a contradiction. Point B-yes, many clones were alongside anakin, however as i stated i don't think they alone could have taken on the jedi temple. You saw the holo recording. The emperor tells anakin that once *he* has killed all the jedi in the temple, only then will *he* (note, anakin, not the clones) be strong enough to save padme. Obi-wan does defeat anakin for the very simple reason that George Lucas stated: he has more experience. In fact Obi-wan is arguably one of the most powerful jedi. Anakin says in Ep. II (probably falsely, but still to the point): he's as wise as master yoda and as powerful as master windu. Plus he knows anakin's fighting style because he trained anakin and anakin only lost because of his emotions and his arrogance. Lucas has stated that he was more powerful. Finally, I take the most issue with point C. Obi-Wan was certainly not lying in ANH. That scene was in the trailer for episode III. It wasn't just something you can brush past as a lie. Anakin is the Sith equivalent of the Chosen One. The Bad Guys in KOTOR would bow before him willingly. And he did not do all the work alone indeed-but most of it was his doing.

Sometime during the early history of the Sith Empire, the coming of the Sith'ari, the prophesied savior of the Sith Order, was foretold. The Sith'ari was a perfect being who would rise to power and bring balance to the Force. According to prophecy, the Sith'ari would rise up and destroy the Sith, but in the process would return to lead the Sith and make them stronger than ever before, a striking parallel to the Chosen One of Jedi legend, though it is most likely that the Sith'ari and Chosen One are one and the same.

Compare that to some lowly Darth Revan and such and you have quite an easy victory for anakin and the emperor

Not to mention the fact that anakin and the emperor succeeded where the foolish, weak dark lords from KOTOR failed: they actually brought down the Republic, and not only that, the emperor did it from within, without even master yoda sensing it, arguably the greatest jedi ever.

Before I start, I like this debate 🙂

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Ok. But this is no answer about army size or how many Dark Jedi Revan realy would have under his command.

No its not, but you have to keep in mind that Revan fought in the gold age of the Jedi and the Sith there would naturally be more then and they would be better trained

You did say that Revan probably would have 1/3 of the Republics fleet. Their a only two relevant planets the Republic has to protect: Kamino (since the Republic army comes from there) and Coruscant. You can command 2/3 of the Republics fleet to defend those two planets (1/3 for Coruscant, 1/3 for Kamino) and take 1/3 to chase Revan. Since the Republic ships have the greater firepower Revan won't be able to attack Coruscant/Kamino and he can't beat the fleet that is chasing him.

That is assuming the fleets are equal in size, which I heavily doubt if that 1.2 million is true. Revan would own them then no matter what. The star forge alone poops out more ships then the Empire has clones... Of course they won't fight in this battle but its just to show that a extreme amount of people followed Revan. Of course this was during a war, but there would be a lot more before that too.

I don't think the Council would argue here for years. They will most likely leave the last word to Yoda. And we can not argue about Yodas experience since he is 850 years old and commanded troops for 3 years in the Clone Wars.

Possibly, but that means the Republic only has one leader. And yes Yoda was leading troops for three years, but he wasn't leading them against the Mandelorians and he sure as hell isn't such a great General as Revan was. Alexander the great fought from 16 to 33 Julius Caesar thought a lot longer and Alexander is still seen as a greater General. Revan has the edge here becuase he is a military genius you don't learn that. Yoda may know the tricks but is he able to execute them into perfection by only three years of fighting without some great military insight? I doubt it.

Well...I don't think that the ARC troopers would have any problems with "unusual" fighting since they are exactly dublicated Jango Fetts.

Well who they spawn from doesn't matter their training does. But this is an on and off yes and no statement... Its just a guess at best for both of us

And "bombing the entire battlefield" would imply having the fleet in orbit facing the Republic fleet. That is no option here...and if so both armys are gone and you back to fleet vs fleet situation which the Republic will win easily.

Perhpas unless again the 1.2 million statement is true, in which case it will be a lot easier for Revan to finish those guys off, and he would win becuase of superior numbers. Not to mention that fleets can be drawn away, lets say Revan lures them to do battle at I don't know Kamino... Then the Republic would go there. Land troops Revan runs to Coruscant starts bombing Republic follows second fleet of Revan arrives and blows up all the Republic troops on the surface, well along with the Sith troops and the entire production facility there.

Well...I still can not say who will have more force users. The Jedi Order had great casualties during the Clone Wars but there might be thousands of Jedi alive in RotS times.

I'm not entirely sure either, but I just think its Revan in Kotor time, because it was the gold age for those people there had to be a lot of them they had to be powerful and really trained. Still not sure but I just think so, not to mention that Revan actually send Jedi to fight in ROTS a few Jedi lead an army on each planet. Not mass Jedi fighting like in Kotor.

Sorry but in this point KOTOR is just going out of SW history. Ataru (form IV) is said to be developed in the last centuries of the Old Republic (so in Yodas times - you might even think that Yoda - or Yaddle - developed it to compensate lack of physical strength and range). So there is no way for KOTOR time Jedi to know this one and the forms that did come after it (V, VI and VII).

Another point is that Mace is said to be the first Jedi that mastered form VII. Do you realy think a combat form can exist 4000 years without one person can master it ?'

You are right about that Atatu thing, I don't know if the Exile could learn that maybe it couldn't. But knowledge can be lost and found again, and Mace didn't learn Juyo he learned Vapaad based on the same style still different. Other people could have mastered Juyo sort off. About the numbers well numbers change in time, things get lost and found again. You don't think that they said Its 7 B.C. in the year that we now see as 7 B.C. do you?

Even if that lightsaber thing is wrong there would be no assasin that can manage to kill people like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan. And yes...most important battles happen at the most important places which takes us back to Kamino and Coruscant. And an attack on Coruscant (that we can see at the beginning of RotS) will destroy Revans entire fleet (it destroyed almost the whole Seperatists fleet and that one was bigger than the one of Revan)

I'm not talking about one, i'm talking about a whole group of them, if I'm right about the Dark Jedi outnumbering the Jedi then 10 to 20 Dark Jedi Masters should be able to find Yoda kill him, then find Mace kill him then find Obi and kill him.

And Those two planets are not all that matters the trops come from Kamino but it takes time to train them, and Revan wouldn't focus on that. Taking out the economic planets, taking out the planets who support the Rots time a lot and conquering those that do not to get more troops. Revan would not cfocus on the capitol immediately. At least not if the fleet of the Rots Republic is really that much more powerful.

Most people miss some points about Revans acts during the Jedi Civil War:

a)
He is not interested in just destroying industrial planets he will more likely use assasination droids (HK-47) or assassins to destabilize local, planet or sector governments. So I think there will be no "real" battles here or at least Revan would not realy sacrifice vital planets.

No he would not sacrifise vital planets but he would fight real battles, he took out governments yes but he also fought battles otherwise the republic would have never fought him and they would not have had so many loses. Huge battles were fought many times

b)
He is focused on conversion and not on murder Jedi. That would be quiet hard for him dealing with RotS Jedi.

Would it be? Mace is wiling to betray the Jedi Code to kill Palpatine, Revan was an expert into converting them, but he also had people kill them don't forget that, he wanted them to join him, but if they ddin't want to they would die simple as that. Now about Mace, he already wanted to betray the Jedi Code to do what he thought was right, he could be ocnverted if Revan spend enough time on it. And i'm sure there are a lot more Jedi that would do the same thing, it couldn't be all that hard for him to do. Many would join him many would fall and many would diel. Also you have to remember that during the clone wars less Jedi walked because the other side didn't have Jedi it was more the REpublic against a threat then the Jedi against the Sith. They had a harder time to find who they could join. Revan wouldn't fight like that and he would convert many of them.

And he might have quite a hard time if he has to confront people like Yoda or Mace since they probably will survive any assassins. Keeping in mind that Revan never had to face a Jedi Master with "real" combat experience since the guys in the KOTOR era did not realy have "battelfront experience".

Vrook didn't have experience? Malak didn't have experience? Kavar did not have experience? Bandon did not have experience? Those were all masters and they all faced Revan or Malak at one time or another Malak and Revan defeated them all. Then there are those Jedi Masters that went on his ship, all said to be incredibly powerful and skilled Masters. Revan faced Masters on countless of occasions you just don't hear about it much because he won.

Now really I think this entire thing comes down to only one thing.

Is that 1.2 million thing real? If the Rots Republic really only had 1.2 million troops then Revan would own them no matter what they had... No question about it, if it isn't true and if they have a lot more it will be incredibly hard and you can't really say who will win becuase it will be a war of running and hiding not real fighting. Until eventually one side or the other finds a way to end the other once and for all. I Think Revan would be more likely to find something like that, but i'm not entirely sure so I really can not say for sure