Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Ok. But this is no answer about army size or how many Dark Jedi Revan realy would have under his command.You did say that Revan probably would have 1/3 of the Republics fleet. Their a only two relevant planets the Republic has to protect: Kamino (since the Republic army comes from there) and Coruscant. You can command 2/3 of the Republics fleet to defend those two planets (1/3 for Coruscant, 1/3 for Kamino) and take 1/3 to chase Revan. Since the Republic ships have the greater firepower Revan won't be able to attack Coruscant/Kamino and he can't beat the fleet that is chasing him.
I don't think the Council would argue here for years. They will most likely leave the last word to Yoda. And we can not argue about Yodas experience since he is 850 years old and commanded troops for 3 years in the Clone Wars.
Well...I don't think that the ARC troopers would have any problems with "unusual" fighting since they are exactly dublicated Jango Fetts.
And "bombing the entire battlefield" would imply having the fleet in orbit facing the Republic fleet. That is no option here...and if so both armys are gone and you back to fleet vs fleet situation which the Republic will win easily.
Well...I still can not say who will have more force users. The Jedi Order had great casualties during the Clone Wars but there might be thousands of Jedi alive in RotS times.
Sorry but in this point KOTOR is just going out of SW history. Ataru (form IV) is said to be developed in the last centuries of the Old Republic (so in Yodas times - you might even think that Yoda - or Yaddle - developed it to compensate lack of physical strength and range). So there is no way for KOTOR time Jedi to know this one and the forms that did come after it (V, VI and VII).
Another point is that Mace is said to be the first Jedi that mastered form VII. Do you realy think a combat form can exist 4000 years without one person can master it ?
I'd say that KOTOR is just out of history of SW universe here.
Even if that lightsaber thing is wrong there would be no assasin that can manage to kill people like Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan. And yes...most important battles happen at the most important places which takes us back to Kamino and Coruscant. And an attack on Coruscant (that we can see at the beginning of RotS) will destroy Revans entire fleet (it destroyed almost the whole Seperatists fleet and that one was bigger than the one of Revan)
Most people miss some points about Revans acts during the Jedi Civil War:
a)
He is not interested in just destroying industrial planets he will more likely use assasination droids (HK-47) or assassins to destabilize local, planet or sector governments. So I think there will be no "real" battles here or at least Revan would not realy sacrifice vital planets.b)
He is focused on conversion and not on murder Jedi. That would be quiet hard for him dealing with RotS Jedi.And he might have quite a hard time if he has to confront people like Yoda or Mace since they probably will survive any assassins. Keeping in mind that Revan never had to face a Jedi Master with "real" combat experience since the guys in the KOTOR era did not realy have "battelfront experience".
@HimoKun:
Mandalorian War ends 3960 BBY
Jedi Civil War starts 3959 BBY
ONE year for Revan to build ships with the Star Forge and corrupt Jedi to the Dark Side. Not five years.
Sorry about the time confusion. Messed up on that. And about the saber thing, Ataru was invented early on for the Jedi. All but Vaapad and Form VI were around during Revan's time.
I just want to say one more thing...
Which is, Revan will win.
At the start of Labyrinth of Evil they talk about the 1.2 million clones, half of them is already dead, now a lot of wars still to come and this is even before ROTS. 600.000 troops is absolutely nothing and IMO the most worthless number I have ever heard., especially for Star Wars.
However seeing as Revan had no trouble sacrifisng thousands of lives just to kill more powerful enemy's he had to have had more poeple. Every clone was valuable in the book, Revan didn't consider his troops like that. They could be replaced. Revan wins this by numbers alone, add his strategy's him probably having more Jedi and a lot of powerful one's and you can really only come to one conclusion. The Rots Republic is screwed
Well Fishy...I just did some research on the troopsize. I don't want to say that the Republic will win easily here, but let me just hand you some facts since I don't want to waste my time researching and then not going to post it.
Starfleets
Revan:
As I figured it out the old republics navy at times of KOTOR contained 3000 capital ships. So Revan has control over 1000 capital ships. I will not try to argue how many of them he might have lost during the Mandalorian Wars. Lets add 500 capital ships here produced by the Star Forge in the year from Mandalorian War ended to Jedi Civil War beginning. (The Star Forge might have produced more but I would like to keep a decent link to reality here saying it would produce 2 capital ships + droid troops and starfighters for them in one day). And I will explain why the Star Forge simply doesn't matter here.
RotS republic:
I tried to figure out troop size here. It is said that the Republic used almost 1000 capital ships during the battle of Coruscant (as we can see it in the beginning of RotS). Most of the ships are Venator class Star Destroyers. Each of them carrying 400 star fighters and approxematly having 3 times the firepower of every capital ship that Revans fleet has. So Revan would be confronted with 1000 ships having twice the firepower of his fleet and 400.000 starfighters.
But this is not everything the Republic has.
Beause know it comes to the point where the Star Forge is going to be outclassed. How ? It is outclassed by Kuat Drive Yards. The main shipyard of KDY rings the ENTIRE Kuat starsystem and outclasses everything in manufacturing ability.
The defence fleet of the Kuat Sector (and now it is getting heavy for Revan) according to AotC ICS factbook contains:
- ships that had more firepower than Imperial class stardestroyers (called Praetor-class Star Battleships)
- something that is called a Mandator class star dreadnought. And this thing owns everything. Being slightly smaller than the Executor it said that this one only could be challenged by 1000 of the Confederacy's Recusant-class light destroyers.
Ground troops
As you mentioned 600.000 as well as 1.2 million clone troopers are nothing. And I think I can prove this number is obviously wrong. You can imagine the power of the later Empire's army. If it took the people of Kamino 15 years to create only 1.2 million clone troopers how can the Empire have so many of them another 19 years later ?
I'd say the answer is in AotC itself. Lama Su said to Obi-Wan that there are 200.000 "units" ready and another million that will be ready shortly. That term "unit" might not refer to a single clone warrior but more likely to a complete command squad (9 soldiers + 1 Sergeant) which are the smallest units in the Clone Army. That would be at least 12 million clone warriors. If half of them was killed before RotS there would be 6 million left. That fits the numbers from the spaceships because they have around 1000 of that Vanator class star destroyers each having a crew of 7400 people. Let us asume that 1400 are "normal" people (technicians, commanders, pilots - as I think not all starfighter pilots were clones in RotS). So 6000 clone troopers on each of 1000 ships = 6 million clone troopers. Fits good enough for me.
And there would be 40000 LAAT/i gunboats (that things flying into the arena on Geonosis saving the Jedi) and 24000 AT-TE walkers (that AT-AT like things) ready for ground assault.
Well...I don't know how many ground troops Revan would have in this but at least he has to put them somewhere. According to his ships (who are 1/2 of the Republics size) he might have around 3 million human soldiers + 1.5 million battle droids.
Jedi
I think the term "golden era" or "Golden Age" more belongs to the Sith not to the Jedi. But even when it is like that I would think it more likely refers to knowledge and power and not to numbers.
There could be many starsystems discovered during 4000 years of history with tons of force users and they also could use better "recruiting methods". For example they could have done midichlorian testing with the blood of newborn childs on all planets of the republic.
Next argument I would like to add here is the numbers of Jedi Knights used during the historical conflicts. There were not that many Jedi involved in the Freedom Nadd uprising. Refering to the Jedi Acadamy Trilogy Exar Kun said there were hundreds (not thousands) of Jedi sended to destroy him at the end of the Great Sith War. And now compare that to AotC were the Jedi Council is able to immediatly send 200 Jedi to Geonosis when recieving the message of Obi-Wan.
I'd say KOTOR time Jedi Order and RotS time Jedi Order would have equal numbers. Since Revan did not convert all Jedi to Dark Jedi (maybe 50 %) they are getting outnumbered here. But this would bring me to say something about the lightsaber styles and lightsaber combat.
I know that all forms are available in KOTOR 2 but this is senseless. The Jedi at that time had to fight two types of enemies: Some with Meleeweapons or Lightsabers, some with blasters. They developed form II against other people with melee weapons and form III against people with blasters. What use would they have developing form IV ?
Form IV is basically developed to compensate a lack of physical power and range that brings me to the thought that this one had to be developed by a very old or very small person. Or both. As it is said being developed in the last centuries before RotS I would say that Yoda is the man who did it. A Jedi who can engage blaster fire and melee weapons (as they have done in KOTOR times) and didn't have to compensate missing range or physical power has simply no use for that.
Form V could be developed during KOTOR times. But the philosophy beyond that is using defence to go offensive. The KOTOR Jedi had a much higher non-violate philosophy than the RotS time once have. Think of the KOTOR Council refusing to enter war with the Mandalorians and than compare that to AotC Jedi immediatly going to war with the Confederacy. See the difference ?
Form VI is almost just the "spirit" of the peacekeeper status of pre AotC Jedi Order.
Form VII contains parts of all forms that were invented before. So it could not be invented before form IV. Simple logic.
To determine how a battle between Revan, Malek and the Dark Jedi and the RotS ones would come out I have to rely on given information. We see all Jedi getting killed on Geonosis in AotC being form VI users. They simply can not stand against a real thread in combat. During RotS times it might be something like that in the Jedi Order:
75 % form IV practioners
10 % form VI (since Yoda is a great swordfighting idol)
10 % form III (having Qui-Gon, a form IV user, killed many of the Jedi switched to form III because that might would aid them better in lightsaber combat and against blaster users - useful for fighting against Sith and droids)
5 % form V and form VII users obviously the more aggressive ones
The only known form I and II prationers are Kit Fisto and Count Dooku
I would say that this one is going to be something like that: form VI users all get killed. Form III practioners fending off. Form IV, VI and VII practioners (containing the people that can use Vaapad) cutting through the lines adding the form III practioners when they did their job. I would say in the end this more or less will be: Malak and Revan vs. Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda. The Sith would get killed without a doubt.
conclusion
Revan will not win this one but he might give the Republic a good fight. And he won't win because:
- only vital systems (Coruscant, Kamino, Kuat System) could all easily be defended with starfleets matching the one Revan has
- he has less ground troops with less firepower
- he has less force users (and the ones he has are Sith or Dark Jedi...well I would thrust them as far as I can throw them being the commander there)
- time works for the Republic here as they can produce more troops/ships with the cloning facilitys on Kamino and the Kuat Drive Yards than Revan can with the Star Forge.
This all only said if the numbers that I found or figured out are right.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well Fishy...I just did some research on the troopsize. I don't want to say that the Republic will win easily here, but let me just hand you some facts since I don't want to waste my time researching and then not going to post it.Starfleets
Revan:
As I figured it out the old republics navy at times of KOTOR contained 3000 capital ships. So Revan has control over 1000 capital ships. I will not try to argue how many of them he might have lost during the Mandalorian Wars. Lets add 500 capital ships here produced by the Star Forge in the year from Mandalorian War ended to Jedi Civil War beginning. (The Star Forge might have produced more but I would like to keep a decent link to reality here saying it would produce 2 capital ships + droid troops and starfighters for them in one day). And I will explain why the Star Forge simply doesn't matter here.RotS republic:
I tried to figure out troop size here. It is said that the Republic used almost 1000 capital ships during the battle of Coruscant (as we can see it in the beginning of RotS). Most of the ships are Venator class Star Destroyers. Each of them carrying 400 star fighters and approxematly having 3 times the firepower of every capital ship that Revans fleet has. So Revan would be confronted with 1000 ships having twice the firepower of his fleet and 400.000 starfighters.
But this is not everything the Republic has.
Beause know it comes to the point where the Star Forge is going to be outclassed. How ? It is outclassed by Kuat Drive Yards. The main shipyard of KDY rings the ENTIRE Kuat starsystem and outclasses everything in manufacturing ability.
The defence fleet of the Kuat Sector (and now it is getting heavy for Revan) according to AotC ICS factbook contains:
- ships that had more firepower than Imperial class stardestroyers (called Praetor-class Star Battleships)
- something that is called a Mandator class star dreadnought. And this thing owns everything. Being slightly smaller than the Executor it said that this one only could be challenged by 1000 of the Confederacy's Recusant-class light destroyers.Ground troops
As you mentioned 600.000 as well as 1.2 million clone troopers are nothing. And I think I can prove this number is obviously wrong. You can imagine the power of the later Empire's army. If it took the people of Kamino 15 years to create only 1.2 million clone troopers how can the Empire have so many of them another 19 years later ?I'd say the answer is in AotC itself. Lama Su said to Obi-Wan that there are 200.000 "units" ready and another million that will be ready shortly. That term "unit" might not refer to a single clone warrior but more likely to a complete command squad (9 soldiers + 1 Sergeant) which are the smallest units in the Clone Army. That would be at least 12 million clone warriors. If half of them was killed before RotS there would be 6 million left. That fits the numbers from the spaceships because they have around 1000 of that Vanator class star destroyers each having a crew of 7400 people. Let us asume that 1400 are "normal" people (technicians, commanders, pilots - as I think not all starfighter pilots were clones in RotS). So 6000 clone troopers on each of 1000 ships = 6 million clone troopers. Fits good enough for me.
And there would be 40000 LAAT/i gunboats (that things flying into the arena on Geonosis saving the Jedi) and 24000 AT-TE walkers (that AT-AT like things) ready for ground assault.
Well...I don't know how many ground troops Revan would have in this but at least he has to put them somewhere. According to his ships (who are 1/2 of the Republics size) he might have around 3 million human soldiers + 1.5 million battle droids.
Jedi
I think the term "golden era" or "Golden Age" more belongs to the Sith not to the Jedi. But even when it is like that I would think it more likely refers to knowledge and power and not to numbers.
There could be many starsystems discovered during 4000 years of history with tons of force users and they also could use better "recruiting methods". For example they could have done midichlorian testing with the blood of newborn childs on all planets of the republic.Next argument I would like to add here is the numbers of Jedi Knights used during the historical conflicts. There were not that many Jedi involved in the Freedom Nadd uprising. Refering to the Jedi Acadamy Trilogy Exar Kun said there were hundreds (not thousands) of Jedi sended to destroy him at the end of the Great Sith War. And now compare that to AotC were the Jedi Council is able to immediatly send 200 Jedi to Geonosis when recieving the message of Obi-Wan.
I'd say KOTOR time Jedi Order and RotS time Jedi Order would have equal numbers. Since Revan did not convert all Jedi to Dark Jedi (maybe 50 %) they are getting outnumbered here. But this would bring me to say something about the lightsaber styles and lightsaber combat.
I know that all forms are available in KOTOR 2 but this is senseless. The Jedi at that time had to fight two types of enemies: Some with Meleeweapons or Lightsabers, some with blasters. They developed form II against other people with melee weapons and form III against people with blasters. What use would they have developing form IV ?
Form IV is basically developed to compensate a lack of physical power and range that brings me to the thought that this one had to be developed by a very old or very small person. Or both. As it is said being developed in the last centuries before RotS I would say that Yoda is the man who did it. A Jedi who can engage blaster fire and melee weapons (as they have done in KOTOR times) and didn't have to compensate missing range or physical power has simply no use for that.
Form V could be developed during KOTOR times. But the philosophy beyond that is using defence to go offensive. The KOTOR Jedi had a much higher non-violate philosophy than the RotS time once have. Think of the KOTOR Council refusing to enter war with the Mandalorians and than compare that to AotC Jedi immediatly going to war with the Confederacy. See the difference ?
Form VI is almost just the "spirit" of the peacekeeper status of pre AotC Jedi Order.
Form VII contains parts of all forms that were invented before. So it could not be invented before form IV. Simple logic.
To determine how a battle between Revan, Malek and the Dark Jedi and the RotS ones would come out I have to rely on given information. We see all Jedi getting killed on Geonosis in AotC being form VI users. They simply can not stand against a real thread in combat. During RotS times it might be something like that in the Jedi Order:
75 % form IV practioners
10 % form VI (since Yoda is a great swordfighting idol)
10 % form III (having Qui-Gon, a form IV user, killed many of the Jedi switched to form III because that might would aid them better in lightsaber combat and against blaster users - useful for fighting against Sith and droids)
5 % form V and form VII users obviously the more aggressive ones
The only known form I and II prationers are Kit Fisto and Count DookuI would say that this one is going to be something like that: form VI users all get killed. Form III practioners fending off. Form IV, VI and VII practioners (containing the people that can use Vaapad) cutting through the lines adding the form III practioners when they did their job. I would say in the end this more or less will be: Malak and Revan vs. Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda. The Sith would get killed without a doubt.
conclusion
Revan will not win this one but he might give the Republic a good fight. And he won't win because:- only vital systems (Coruscant, Kamino, Kuat System) could all easily be defended with starfleets matching the one Revan has
- he has less ground troops with less firepower
- he has less force users (and the ones he has are Sith or Dark Jedi...well I would thrust them as far as I can throw them being the commander there)
- time works for the Republic here as they can produce more troops/ships with the cloning facilitys on Kamino and the Kuat Drive Yards than Revan can with the Star Forge.This all only said if the numbers that I found or figured out are right.
How did you figure out the Old Republic's navy had 3000 capitol ships? Where id you get this information? And the Star Forge ships were numbered in the thousands by then, since it could produce them so fast. And about the battle of Coruscant, that was almost the whole Republic Navy. There might of been about 300 ships outside of it with Ki Adi Mundi.
And yes, the Golden Era was for the Sith. And the thing about the KOTOR jedi, almost all of them were combat ready since the Sith had attacked the Republic about 50 years earlier. And all the Jedi that stayed with him were veterans of a brutal war between a very fierce enemy. Not only did he get those Jedi, but he also got numerous other fallen Jedi and Sith to join him. Also, all the Jedi that were with him would be proficient in one of the more powerful lightsaber combat. (ie. not Form 6 ro Form 4. But all others wer eopen to them) I believe Revan has the advantage in Jedi since they would have a more combat oriented style, and that they would be veterans of a more brutal age.
Form 7 does not contain all different moves from other forms. that's form 6. And Form 7 was not practice by the Jedi because of it's Sith nature. And the only Vaapad user alive would be Mace. And the Jedi and Sith would be using Form 2 extensively since they would be going against the Jedi Order.
Revan would be making twice as many ships as the shipyards on Kuat.
Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well Fishy...I just did some research on the troopsize. I don't want to say that the Republic will win easily here, but let me just hand you some facts since I don't want to waste my time researching and then not going to post it.Starfleets
Revan:
As I figured it out the old republics navy at times of KOTOR contained 3000 capital ships. So Revan has control over 1000 capital ships. I will not try to argue how many of them he might have lost during the Mandalorian Wars. Lets add 500 capital ships here produced by the Star Forge in the year from Mandalorian War ended to Jedi Civil War beginning. (The Star Forge might have produced more but I would like to keep a decent link to reality here saying it would produce 2 capital ships + droid troops and starfighters for them in one day). And I will explain why the Star Forge simply doesn't matter here.RotS republic:
I tried to figure out troop size here. It is said that the Republic used almost 1000 capital ships during the battle of Coruscant (as we can see it in the beginning of RotS). Most of the ships are Venator class Star Destroyers. Each of them carrying 400 star fighters and approxematly having 3 times the firepower of every capital ship that Revans fleet has. So Revan would be confronted with 1000 ships having twice the firepower of his fleet and 400.000 starfighters.
But this is not everything the Republic has.
Beause know it comes to the point where the Star Forge is going to be outclassed. How ? It is outclassed by Kuat Drive Yards. The main shipyard of KDY rings the ENTIRE Kuat starsystem and outclasses everything in manufacturing ability.
The defence fleet of the Kuat Sector (and now it is getting heavy for Revan) according to AotC ICS factbook contains:
- ships that had more firepower than Imperial class stardestroyers (called Praetor-class Star Battleships)
- something that is called a Mandator class star dreadnought. And this thing owns everything. Being slightly smaller than the Executor it said that this one only could be challenged by 1000 of the Confederacy's Recusant-class light destroyers.Ground troops
As you mentioned 600.000 as well as 1.2 million clone troopers are nothing. And I think I can prove this number is obviously wrong. You can imagine the power of the later Empire's army. If it took the people of Kamino 15 years to create only 1.2 million clone troopers how can the Empire have so many of them another 19 years later ?I'd say the answer is in AotC itself. Lama Su said to Obi-Wan that there are 200.000 "units" ready and another million that will be ready shortly. That term "unit" might not refer to a single clone warrior but more likely to a complete command squad (9 soldiers + 1 Sergeant) which are the smallest units in the Clone Army. That would be at least 12 million clone warriors. If half of them was killed before RotS there would be 6 million left. That fits the numbers from the spaceships because they have around 1000 of that Vanator class star destroyers each having a crew of 7400 people. Let us asume that 1400 are "normal" people (technicians, commanders, pilots - as I think not all starfighter pilots were clones in RotS). So 6000 clone troopers on each of 1000 ships = 6 million clone troopers. Fits good enough for me.
Not according to Labyrint of evil, which no matter how stupid it sounds is a valid EU source... 1.2 million is really all they had according to that book. Half of that was dead, leaving about 600.000 clones left at most during the siege of Coruscant at the start of ROTS... 600.000 Now in all honesty I like your explanation so much more but it isn't true, I wish it was in which case I would have admitted Revan his defeat, but it just isn't... Another thing to proof is, is in other books where they say that a 10 million droids or so would have been enough to take them out. This sounds so incredibly stupid, its unthinkable about how stupid it sounds, but the movies and books just clearly state it.
Sorry for not quoting the rest and argueing with you on individiual points, but i'm kinda tired right now and don't feel like it, besides I think most of it will come down to the same thing again.
But Revan will have superior numbers more ships and all that crap, the Star Forge isn't even a factor here but it could have pooped out thousands of ships if Revan was already using it. Whatever the case is with only 600.000 soldiers the Republic can never ever win.
One other thing about your argument to not fight in the Mandelorian wars. That did not make the council peaceful, that made them right. They thought something was out there, they wanted to join but not yet. Not when they would still face an unknown danger, they had a choice and they made it. They were however not as peaceful as you make it seem. They had fought many wars and were already preparing to fight against the Mandelorians. As said in Kotor II primarily...
But besides the point...
Here is what I think would happen, with only 600.000 troops Revan will send small groups to attack vital places lure many of their ships away and then bombard an entire other planet seperating the republic fleet bit by bit by bit until eventually nothing of it is left. Revan will run and hide until the republic has fallen.
But now lets just assume you are right and the 600.000 thing is wrong (which would make more sense but it isn't 🙁 ) then yeah Revan would probably be ****ed
like was said before, the star forge is not a factor, but even if Revan did find it, it would not matter. The republic has Corellia (an entire system), Fondor (produces nearly 100 ships at a time), Kaut (read Nai Fohl's post), the planet near Kamino (forget its name, but it supplied all the ships on Geonosis), Mon Calamari etc. In terms of ships, Revan is clearly outclassed.
And about the clones, even if they only had 600 000 clones (which is far to small a number), do you think that was the only army they had? At the start of the war, yes. But by RotS the war has been going on for what, 3 years? Other systems would have built up their own armies, this is shown in shatterpoint when Mace went and found a ready made army waiting for him. It is also shown in the movie when the wookies are fighting next to the clones. Also, people will fight to defend their home and their planet. And if the republic was about to loose, they would draft people. Every other country in the present world has done it, why not the republic. So when they do that, even if each one of Revan's troops can kill 10 of the Republics troops, Revan still looses. Courscant alone has 'many trillions' to quote someone, forget who. So over-all, Revan is out numbered and out classed. He looses.
Right, but here is you thinking that those planets would willingly join the Republic who they hate, they won't join the Separatist who they hate, Revan can give them a solution.
Not to mention that those planets who had army's yes did not have much of a space force to speak off. A full bombardment from space could take out entire planets and Revan could fight Genghis Khan style.. Take out one planet and the next will submit, if it doesn't take it out and then the next one will.
Because we can't really put politics in here and because we have no idea who would join who and why we will just have to leave that out and go by the army's that they had... And really with only 600.000 troops they are just out staffed. Even if they had 2 billion fighters they couldn't win because they wouldn't have had the troops to use them.
Personally I hate the entire idea, thinking that Revan could wage a full out war against somebody with superior technology is ridiculous... Hiding running taking out key locations thats what he should do, and then it would be an interesting thing to see something really hard to predict. But right here there are to many chances with planets and all we know for sure is that the republic troop size is a little more then half a million at most.
I'm sorry but with that I just don't give them a chance in hell.
If something was a bit more realistic then yeah the Republic would win in a full out war, but GL just screwed up with those numbers
I think the Republic was completely unprepared to fight someone like Revan because of the fact that they couldn't see through Sidious's plans, and he started off with one apprentice and no army. If Sidious could use the Republic against itself, then so, I think, could Revan. In fact, he did turn a government against itself single-handedly and won, so I think he could do it again against a government and a Jedi Council that hadn't met any truly challenging opponents, seeing as Sidious meant for them to win every conflict in which they were involved - even in Episode I.
Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
I think the Republic was completely unprepared to fight someone like Revan because of the fact that they couldn't see through Sidious's plans, and he started off with one apprentice and no army. If Sidious could use the Republic against itself, then so, I think, could Revan. In fact, he did turn a government against itself single-handedly and won, so I think he could do it again against a government and a Jedi Council that hadn't met any truly challenging opponents, seeing as Sidious meant for them to win every conflict in which they were involved - even in Episode I.
Someone with a good argument. Thank you Light Pimp.
Thanks Kun. I appreciate the compliment.
And to Jabar - if they are working against each other, assuming it's an open struggle, then they both lose their key element: subtlety. Without it they would have been discovered and destroyed long before they took power. However, that also changes things, if Sidious is facing Revan - that has many implications, like the point that the Jedi would never fight under Sidious. Assuming that they are out of the picture, however, seeing as Sidious has no Death Star, no super star destroyers, no star destroyers, and no Vader (they didn't exist in the Republic), I don't think he can match Revan's military might, no matter how cunning he is. Although I probably have failed to mention some of the variables of which I originally thought.
Anyways, congratulations, Jabar - this thread has gotten so many responses with a great deal of effort put into them, so you obviously did a good job in thinking of the thread.