Originally posted by Mr Master
👆Hey, I had a question for ya, you seem to be proficient in this area:
What is the entire family tree of the Presence. (aspects included)
Also, it'd be cool if you could place them in order if you can.
Michael & Lucifer (his 'sons'😉
Elaine, Michael's daughter, making him her 'grandpa' sort to speak. She was the one he left in charge of creation once he departed.
Spectre (God's wrath)
Then there's the Voice and The Word (who has been reffered as Spectre's 'brother'😉
The Decreator (reffered to as the 'AntiGod' or 'Unmaker'😉
Gabriel. What is known is that he was also assigned a role at the beginning of creation, similar to Lucifer and Michael.
"No one wins here, my dear sons. [...] The aspects of myself through which I act"
And Eclipso, the first 'wrath'
The relationship between the Source and God has never actually been clarified, but according to the Lucifer series, they aren't the same.
I'm not entirely sure of the canonicity of Morrison's Doom Patrol in relation to the shared Vertigo universe of Hellblazer/Sandman/Lucifer/Tim Hunter/Swamp Thing etc., so I'm kind of wary of really thinking of the Decreator as a relation to the Presence...
And the Great Evil Beast is basically the brother to the Presence.
But, good information.
I remember something about Marvel: The End happening in an alternate universe, but that very similar events took place in 616. I believe this was from Mr. Master at some point, and he had several references to the comics in question.
Anyone remember the details? Or, if it was Mr. Master...could you elaborate?
It is generally easier to accept as being in canon because Thanos himself referenced the event in his own series before annihilation to Warlock, who of course was missed by Thanos/hotu. If I recall correctly, Thanos' Nova Corp file also references Thanos destroying all reality before, although that might be put down to his IG conquest, but I doubt it. At least one of Akhenaten's profiles have also referred to the Earth-4321 occurences being partially replicated in 616, although the latter could be taken as part of Marvel's attempt to retcon the event into non-continuity.
Originally posted by OualladaIn Thanos' Nova Corps bio, it does say "one time reality ender" - and seeing as he didn't destroy reality with the IG, I'd definitely attribute that statement to the Heart. However, I found it odd that the bio goes on to reference Thanos' obtaining of the CC/IG, but never once is the Heart actually mentioned. Yet it says he "ended reality?"
If I recall correctly, Thanos' Nova Corp file also references Thanos destroying all reality before, although that might be put down to his IG conquest, but I doubt it.
Thought that was odd. ermmsrug
Yeah I know, which is why I emphasised the "might" portion that attributes ending reality to the IG.
My take on that, and on Marvel's attempts to retcon "the end" into non-continuity was that The End actually took place in Earth-4321, but that a similar incident took place in 616, and that the bio is congruent with the reality ending statement (backing up what they said about the similar incident), while disowning the Hotu incident at the same time by having an official take that it occured in Earth-4321.
One of Marvel's silliest retcons, and probably played no small part in Starlin leaving the company.
I know SBP is a pre-crisis character [hence his incredible powers] - but was this fact ever stated in a recent comic/bio? Or is it something you just have to link with COIE?
The reason I ask is, if one were new to comics and they picked up IC, or the Sinestro Corps Wars, as their first read(s) - they'd probably be completely lost as to why Prime is that much > everyone else, no?
Originally posted by SoljerI remember something about Marvel: The End happening in an alternate universe, but that very similar events took place in 616. I believe this was from Mr. Master at some point, and he had several references to the comics in question.
Anyone remember the details? Or, if it was Mr. Master...could you elaborate?
It took place in 616, and expanded from there.
The only relation 4321 has to the story,
is that's where Akhenaten originated from,
which is the Past of 616 (Earth-4321) the year 1331 BC.
(which is why only Ak's bio mentions 4321)
This reality was depicted in flashbacks in book #1 - 2,
where Ak's Past is focused in a few pages,
other than that,
the entire story was situated in the 616 Universe.
Thanos absorbed the entire Marvel Universe from ground zero,
ground zero being 616.
I have all the scans and bio confirmations if anyone is interested.
But one detail quickly settles the matter.
That detail being,
Warlock and Gamora were outside ground zero (616)
tending Atleza who literally anchors the 616 Reality.
"You & Gamora were outside this reality,
tending Atleza, this Actuality's Cosmic Anchor"
..................................................................................
Here's Atleza (616 cosmic anchor) On Panel in "Marvel: The End" ...
..................................................................................
(The Official Marvel Handbook confirmation excerpt)
"Atleza:
Occupation: Anchor of Earth 616 Reality.
..................................................................................
There's a plethora of more proof at my disposal,
but this should be suffice for any sensible cat. 🙂
btw.
"Marvel: The End" ...
has been referenced across many 2007 and 2008 Handbook bios as well,
concerning 616 characters, normal heroes and cosmics,
further corroborating it's canonicity.
Originally posted by Galan007
I know SBP is a pre-crisis character [hence his incredible powers] - but was this fact ever stated in a recent comic/bio? Or is it something you just have to link with COIE?The reason I ask is, if one were new to comics and they picked up IC, or the Sinestro Corps Wars, as their first read(s) - they'd probably be completely lost as to why Prime is that much > everyone else, no?
I can't recall it ever being specifically mentioned other than towards the beginning of IC where it mentions that Superman (Earth 2), Alexander Luthor, and Superman Prime were survivors of the original multiverse.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah good friend, I never said that,
I argued against those that tried to push that fallacy,
in fact, I have tons of evidence that prove without a doubt,
that "Marvel: The End," ... was/is 100% canon! (a 616 saga)It took place in 616, and expanded from there.
The only relation 4321 has to the story,
is that's where Akhenaten originated from,
which is the Past of 616 (Earth-4321) the year 1331 BC.
(which is why only Ak's bio mentions 4321)This reality was depicted in flashbacks in book #1 - 2,
where Ak's Past is focused in a few pages,
other than that,
the entire story was situated in the 616 Universe.Thanos absorbed the [b]entire
Marvel Universe from ground zero,
ground zero being 616.I have all the scans and bio confirmations if anyone is interested.
But one detail quickly settles the matter.
That detail being,
Warlock and Gamora were outside ground zero (616)
tending Atleza who literally anchors the 616 Reality."You & Gamora were outside this reality,
tending Atleza, this Actuality's Cosmic Anchor"..................................................................................
Here's Atleza (616 cosmic anchor) On Panel in "Marvel: The End" ...
..................................................................................
(The Official Marvel Handbook confirmation excerpt)
"Atleza:
Occupation: Anchor of Earth 616 Reality.
..................................................................................
There's a plethora of more proof at my disposal,
but this should be suffice for any sensible cat. 🙂btw.
"Marvel: The End" ...
has been referenced across many 2007 and 2008 Handbook bios as well,
concerning 616 characters, normal heroes and cosmics,
further corroborating it's canonicity. [/B]
Sorry I attributed the wrong stance to you; I just remember you being part of the discussion, and wanted a bit of clarification. I really do appreciate it.
Originally posted by tjcoadyRight. So you pretty much have to of read at least the last issue of COIE [printed over 20 years ago] to know that Prime wasn't depowered during the crisis - which is why he retained his pre-crisis power set.
I can't recall it ever being specifically mentioned other than towards the beginning of IC where it mentions that Superman (Earth 2), Alexander Luthor, and Superman Prime were survivors of the original multiverse.
ie. if you were brand new to comics, and decided to pick up a few TPB's, then saw Prime in IC/SC ripping through everyone - you wouldn't have a clue as to why he's that powerful? ( 👇 ) I'm really surprised DC never detailed/ellaborated on this in more recent comics - that way, at least new readers would know what's up with Prime.
srsly.
Originally posted by Endless MikeI'm currently in a debate
about whether Thanos just absorbed one universe with the HOTU or more
Starlin did that, cause he was referring to the entire Marvel Universe.
The entire Marvel Universe is everything in Marvel!
But there are parts of the story that clearly tells us that at the very least,
Thanos absorbed more:
ie.
Thanos said "I was Everything ... bonded to Omni-Reality"
not hyperbole because artistically we see everything he became:
................................................................................
Now, either Thanos was All Reality. (Marvel Omniverse)
Or Thanos was All withIN a single reality.
Some have argued that statement means, the latter,
but there is proof that makes that impossible
and this is it:
................................................................................
"I was an asteroid drifting in the void shortly after the Big Bang"
"I was a grain of sand in a Distant Future"
................................................................................
So Thanos was also connected to the Past and the Future,
and as we know Mike, the Past and the Future (in Marvel)
are located in separate Universes outside of 616,
that's an undeniable fact.
So, Thanos was connected to other TimelineS (UniverseS) evidently.
This alone proves
Thanos is talking about the Marvel Omniverse, (or the entire Marvel Universe)
which is the same thing, ... as in "Everything"
................................................................................
"I was Everything"
Ain't that the truth.
................................................................................
That proves unequivocally that Thanos became the Marvel Omniverse,
but is there proof that he absorbed the entire Marvel Universe? (Omniverse)
These are the Writer's own words:
Jim Starlin (Writer/Creator of "The End: Marvel")
===================================
Jim Starlin interview: ... (towards the bottom)
http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=36&t=000382
"Thanos and the resurrected Pharaoh Akhenaten compete for the ultimate power"
"Figured if I was going to kill off the entire Marvel Universe
it ought to be the real thing"
===================================
Which is fully backed by the official Handbook bios of:
(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Eternity
"Thanos claimed the Power of THOTI,
Eternity opposed Thanos once more,
Thanos destroyed ALL of Reality"
................................................................................
2.
(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Living Tribunal
"Thanos destroyed ALL that Existed with his power ...
and then Restored Reality"
................................................................................
3.
(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Infinity
"Thanos used THOTI to destroy All Reality"
========================================
What is All Reality in Marvel?
..............................................................................
1. Omniverse
1. "Group of alternate universeS which encompasses ALL Reality"
..............................................................................
