Lucifer Morningstar runs the Gauntlet...

of course it does. it will be governed by the power that created it, first of all. and since it exists within the framework of the multiverse, in fact, appears to be the very essence of that multiverse, it would seem to follow that it must follow the rules established in this multiverse. it can control all aspects of those rules, but why would its influence matter to someone entirely outside its realm of governance? i think it just wouldn't affect him in anyway, or hold any sway over him. like nothing else would either. lucifer is beyond normal characters or limits. and frankl, he should be.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Anyway Adam with HOTU will crush Lucifer.>>

i would highly doubt that. i'd doubt the hotu would have any impact at all on lucifer who is technically outside the multi-verse and all the laws that govern it.

Once Lucifer steps into the marvel universe, He will be vulnerable to the Infinity Gauntlet/HOTU. He's in the marvel universe now, anything that didn't affect him before would have an affect on him now. Lucifer talk Warlock into giving up THOTU? Not gonna happen. Who's the one who talked so sense into Thanos and recovered the Infinity Gauntlet from Nebula? Warlock. Who arrived at THE END to again convince Thanos the error of his ways when everyone else was blinked out of existence including the LT(Lucifer's not the only one who is exist outside the multi-verse, why do you think he didn't get blinked out of existence by Thanos in THE END) Warlock arrived. He's no idiot. With good and evil expelled from his soul, he will not bow to either side, good or bad. He will expel Lucifer from the Marvel Universe back to his part of the DC Universe. He may get past Thanos and LT, he will not get past Warlock.

Originally posted by leonidas
of course it does. it will be governed by the power that created it, first of all. and since it exists within the framework of the multiverse, in fact, appears to be the very essence of that multiverse, it would seem to follow that it must follow the rules established in this multiverse. it can control all aspects of those rules, but why would its influence matter to someone entirely outside its realm of governance? i think it just wouldn't affect him in anyway, or hold any sway over him. like nothing else would either. lucifer is beyond normal characters or limits. and frankl, he should be.

No HOTU is not restricted by the multiverse , he absorbed everything

LT is the highest force in the multiverse.

Only people that are omniversal is GOD, and HOTU also became Omniversal

Lucifer is a angle that was mind controlled by fernis

why would hotu be omniversal? and you said hotu doesn't follow laws. obviouslly it does. lucifer does as well, or he would have won his war. but unlike lucifer, hotu was created after lucifer WITHIN the confines of the multiverse. why would it be able to affect him? i'm not necessarily implying lucifer is more 'powerul' than the hotu, simply outside its realm of influence. nor am i saying he is necessarily more powerful than LT. they all have 'infinite' power, just to differing degrees.

Originally posted by leonidas
why would hotu be omniversal? and you said hotu doesn't follow laws. obviouslly it does. lucifer does as well, or he would have won his war. but unlike lucifer, hotu was created after lucifer WITHIN the confines of the multiverse. why would it be able to affect him? i'm not necessarily implying lucifer is more 'powerul' than the hotu, simply outside its realm of influence. nor am i saying he is necessarily more powerful than LT. they all have 'infinite' power, just to differing degrees.

Obviously it does-- how so? What laws does it follow Leo?

HOTU is everything there is he is all death, eternity, LT everything.

HOTU= Power of GOD.

As for Lucifer he can't even leave his universe (dimension without permission)

HOTU = Onmiversal because he is everything there is, power that is govern by nothing.

Thanos said that his power is beyond everything.

Obviously God > HOTU

But HOTU basically made Thanos GOD.

where did you get the idea that he follow laws?

It will affect him. The battle takes place place in the Marvel Universe. Lucifer is a powerful being, Nothing in the DC Universe besides the Presence can actually harm him. I'm just saying, that just like when Darkseid possessed the Infinity Gauntlet in the DC Universe it had no power...In the Marvel Universe, it's wielder's power second only to the LT and then the TOAA. Since the battle takes place in the Marvel Universe, Lucifer can and will be affected by the power of the IG to a degree...Nothing Lucifer can't overcome theoretically. Lucifer's powers in the Marvel Universe could also be far different from that of his own universe. His powers theoretically might not work as well in the Marvel Universe compared to how it would work in his own. He could theoretically be stopped by Thanos with the IG. Although it's possible it's not likely.

ah, okay sentry. i see where you're coming from. i don't like the argument though because their is no presence in marvel, hence there couldn't theoretically BE a lucifer in marvel. to make the debate feasible, you have to transplant him into marvel and allow him the same status he would have in dc - namely second ONLY to presence/toaa.

and kg, i think your reasoning is faulty for 2 reasons: (1) you assume the multiverse is ALL that is. is can't be. toaa and lucfier existed in a place BEFORE the multiverse was created. so there is an unwritten assumption that a realm exists outside the multiverse that NOTHING, NO POWER can exert control over. ie - hotu cannot have power over 'heaven'. thus, this is one of the laws hotu must follow.

(2) you claim hotu = power of god. no it doesn't. it is an aspect of his power, a portion, a part of it made manifest in the multiverse. with it, anyone can control all aspects of reality/law in the multiverse. when hotu destroyed 'everything' it did not/could not have destroyed that place that existed BEFORE the multiverse - a place lucifer existed/exists. which is why i still say hotu wouldn't affect lucifer and is below lucifer - if not in power, than at least in . . . origin?

liki kgkg said, HOTU is not restricted by the multiverse.
leonidas, do you think HOTU is limited to that, HOTU has no limit, he has power over all exisetnce, not only multiverse, all omniverse, all existence, everyvere, compeltely everywhere. Lucifer has the same status in Marvel as in DC, still, HOTU will crush him, he will do whatever he wants to do to Lucifer. TOAA is beyond Lucifer, Lucifer has fraction of TOAA power (Lucifer has limits), while HOTU doesn't, it doens't have limits, it's only limits is, that TOAA can stop it, cause it's still TOAA. Luicfer needs Michael, THOTU didn't need anything, he brought everything to life like nothing, restored whole Multiverse like nothing. No matter where Lucifer is, Adam with HOTU will crush him and than would destroy that place (outside of whetever you want it to be outside), like it never existed.
Which issue was when Thanos joind with HOTU, I must read that again.

Isn't Lucifer a high ranking angel? Why wouldn't he reside in heaven?

and i'll respectfully disagree. makes no sense toaa would create an artifact capable of destroying 'heaven'. what possible purpose could it serve? the displays of power hotu shows may be things lucifer is incapable of (no one really knows the full extent of his powers) but because it could do more doesn't mean it could UNDO him. is hotu beyond/greater than the Source? they seem very similar to me. just that no one has harnessed the source to do what hotu has done. is the source CAPABLE of doing the same thing? in my opinion yes it is. and lucifer is beyond the source. spectre is also an aspect of the presence in the multiverse, capable of wielding the presence's power, like hotu is an aspect of toaa's power. lucifer is beyond spectre. just because hotu displays the ridiculous ability to wipe out the multiverse, doesn't mean it could wipe out lucifer, like the other powers i mentioned could not. obviously this is ALL speculation, but that's my opinion and i'll not be changing it i'm afraid.

🙂

Originally posted by leonidas

and kg, i think your reasoning is faulty for 2 reasons: (1) you assume the multiverse is ALL that is. is can't be. toaa and lucfier existed in a place BEFORE the multiverse was created. so there is an unwritten assumption that a realm exists outside the multiverse that NOTHING, NO POWER can exert control over. ie - hotu cannot have power over 'heaven'. thus, this is one of the laws hotu must follow.

Beyond the multiverse doesn't mean it can't be defeated (Fernis a enties like Choas controled Lucifer)

one law HOTU must follow- THanos said there is nothing nothing above him he was all he was heaven also (there is no heaven in marvel , if there was he will be heaven also)

so just cuz Lufier lives beyond the multiverse HOTU can't effect it? that's bull.

(2) you claim hotu = power of god. no it doesn't. it is an aspect of his power, a portion, a part of it made manifest in the multiverse. with it, anyone can control all aspects of reality/law in the multiverse. when hotu destroyed 'everything' it did not/could not have destroyed that place that existed BEFORE the multiverse - a place lucifer existed/exists. which is why i still say hotu wouldn't affect lucifer and is below lucifer - if not in power, than at least in . . . origin?

lol marvel doesn't go with the religion heaven and hell.

Mephisto, Satan, other demonic entities dominates marvel's hell (Mephisto&#8217;s realm) = Lucifer then 😉

Doesn&#8217;t sound rite does it

What is so hard to understand that HOTU is all of creation everything?

Thanos himself said that there is no limits he is below nobody.

heaven , hell ? please

Hell of marvel = Mephisto

IG > Mephisto and his hell domain.

outside the multiverse doesn't mean much , beacuse luficer still has limits , while Thanos with HOTU is all there is.

if Luficer came to marvel

Lucifer will be part of HOTU.

HOTU = all of gods creation and power over it

Luficer = gods creation

HOTU > Lucifer

thanos said the same about the IG, and was wrong, because hotu seems to be above IG. and i said if we brought lucifer to marvel he would have to be at the same level he's at in dc - namely second to the presence. so, the equivalent in marvel would be second to the toaa and above LT. marvel's 'hells' are not equivalent, that's a ludicrous statement. i said he would need to be EQUIVALENT to his dc status or the debate is moot.

hotu = the Source

don't see why hotu (a ridiculous artifact) would affect/hinder lucifer anymore than the source does. regardless of how much you rant otherwise.

🙂

TOAA and The Presance are diffrent TOAA is not more powerful then The Presance THOTU was not a real artifact it was bate for Thanos TOAA knew that Thanos would take His power and then have to totally destroy Himself in order to fix the multiverse from armegeddon TOAA then most lickly reasumed His power as TOAA after Thanos was destroyed and He killed everything? Why was Adam Warlock still alive and Death and no TOAA didnt create the Beyond Realm even Galactus said It was BEYOND the mulitiverse as in beyonder the power of TOAA if you ever read the secret wars Beyonder had powers several hundred times that of the combined powers of the multiverse including everything in it TOAA rules MU and The Presance rules DCU there not the same being and if you ask me The Presance could defeat TOAA thats pretty stupid to assume no one can defeat TOAA so now what DC has to make sure its Characters are not as powerful as TOAA thats not even logical.

Originally posted by leonidas
thanos said the same about the IG, and was wrong, because hotu seems to be above IG. and i said if we brought lucifer to marvel he would have to be at the same level he's at in dc - namely second to the presence. so, the equivalent in marvel would be second to the toaa and above LT. marvel's 'hells' are not equivalent, that's a ludicrous statement. i said he would need to be EQUIVALENT to his dc status or the debate is moot.

hotu = the Source

don't see why hotu (a ridiculous artifact) would affect/hinder lucifer anymore than the source does. regardless of how much you rant otherwise.

🙂

HOTU made him all there is

You can't understand it, it's all good I know it's hard sometimes.

Originally posted by Mider
TOAA and The Presance are diffrent TOAA is not more powerful then The Presance THOTU was not a real artifact it was bate for Thanos TOAA knew that Thanos would take His power and then have to totally destroy Himself in order to fix the multiverse from armegeddon TOAA then most lickly reasumed His power as TOAA after Thanos was destroyed and He killed everything? Why was Adam Warlock still alive and Death and no TOAA didnt create the Beyond Realm even Galactus said It was BEYOND the mulitiverse as in beyonder the power of TOAA if you ever read the secret wars Beyonder had powers several hundred times that of the combined powers of the multiverse including everything in it TOAA rules MU and The Presance rules DCU there not the same being and if you ask me The Presance could defeat TOAA thats pretty stupid to assume no one can defeat TOAA so now what DC has to make sure its Characters are not as powerful as TOAA thats not even logical.

TOAA Knew? You mean because God know all.

God didn't create the beyond realms? Lol

God created everything in marvel.

Originally posted by kgkg Beyond the multiverse doesn't mean it can't be defeated (Fernis a enties like Choas controled Lucifer)

Whats your point? If you really think HOTU is above Lucifer, then think that way, heck thats what I think as well. But can you atleast argue FAIRLY? Make you arguments logical and within the bounds of what weve seen in the comics. You know damn well that Fenris mind controling Lucifer is NOT a very good argument against him. Anybody who is SEVERELY weakened before an encounter with Fenris would be mind controlled. And yes including the one with HOTU.

Anyway, I still believe that Lucifer can trick Warlock. Warlock convinced Thanos in giving up HOTU and talking sense to him to recover IG, cool. But what does that prove again?

Originally posted by Synchro
Whats your point? If you really think HOTU is above Lucifer, then think that way, heck thats what I think as well. But can you atleast argue FAIRLY? Make you arguments logical and within the bounds of what weve seen in the comics. You know damn well that Fenris mind controling Lucifer is NOT a very good argument against him. Anybody who is SEVERELY weakened before an encounter with Fenris would be mind controlled. And yes including the one with HOTU.

Anyway, I still believe that Lucifer can trick Warlock. Warlock convinced Thanos in giving up HOTU and talking sense to him to recover IG, cool. But what does that prove again?

according to leonidas people that are beyond the multiverse(DC) can't be effected.

Which is funny.

Originally posted by Synchro
Whats your point? If you really think HOTU is above Lucifer, then think that way, heck thats what I think as well. But can you atleast argue FAIRLY? Make you arguments logical and within the bounds of what weve seen in the comics. You know damn well that Fenris mind controling Lucifer is NOT a very good argument against him. Anybody who is SEVERELY weakened before an encounter with Fenris would be mind controlled. And yes including the one with HOTU.

Anyway, I still believe that Lucifer can trick Warlock. Warlock convinced Thanos in giving up HOTU and talking sense to him to recover IG, cool. But what does that prove again?

He won't fall for any of the same tricks he would use against omnipotent beings. Take a look at his enemies he battles normally without the IG. Man-Beast, Goddess, The Magus, Thanos, Eterntiy... Beyonder put it into words of how Warlock would be portrayed if Marvel went the religious route:

Adam Warlock - the father
Magus - the son
Goddess - the holy spirit

Together they are GOD - or was GOD when Warlock had the IG. Warlock seperated himself from both good (Goddess) and evil (Magus) to become a logical GOD.

Anyways, Magus is akin to Lucifer in terms of his role. Blah blah blah. There, I just created my Holy Trinity.

Warlock with THOTU has expelled good and evil from his body, and will not be convinced by anyone to give up that power. He would not fall for the same tricks he uses. Warlock is sort of the messiah of the Marvel Universe, for their was at least 3 times he along with a few other Marvel Powerhouses saved the Marvel Universe from destruction, with him being the vanguard. He's very underestimated in Marvel.