Phoenix vs. Galactus

someone who "weilds" the Phoenix Force is not an avatar, or at least thats not an accurate term. Its a poor word to use because it means something else. Avatar means "incarnation". The accurate term would be "host", and thats whats used in the books for the most part. The beetle that the Phoenix Force possessed does not become an avatar, for example.

The term "avatar" can be used with Jean, because it states that she is one with the force on several separate occasions. Its also been stated that shes an incarnation. Hence the term avatar.

Originally posted by kgkg
Marvel doesn't have a clear idea what the Phoenix force "really" is.

thats for sure, at least different authors have different interpretations. Its possible to come up with a consistent view of the force now though thanks to Endsong.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
thats for sure, at least different authors have different interpretations. Its possible to come up with a consistent view of the force now though thanks to Endsong.

I think more is needed.

Like connection to god or creation.

But its Sad the force has been ignored in most marvel comics

Except X-men

so it's also hard to gauge it’s power(and the retcon there are too many , the writer don’t have clear idea if you read it keeps changing.)

X-men comics say one thing, other marvel comics says other.

<<someone who "weilds" the Phoenix Force is not an avatar, or at least thats not an accurate term. Its a poor word to use because it means something else. Avatar means "incarnation". The accurate term would be "host", and thats whats used in the books for the most part. The beetle that the Phoenix Force possessed does not become an avatar, for example.>.

point taken regarding terminology. you and cube are correct. my main points however, (bungling terminology aside) remain: (1) that not all hosts appear to be as powerful as others, and NO host is as powerful as jean. i doubt anyone other than jean could defeat galactus - or any true high end cosmic. and, (2) just because a phoenix 'host' is involved in a battle doesn't mean that host is invincible. which is what a lot of people seem to believe.

and there has ALWAYS been confusion (at least for me) about the pf, going all the way back to its inception.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<someone who "weilds" the Phoenix Force is not an avatar, or at least thats not an accurate term. Its a poor word to use because it means something else. Avatar means "incarnation". The accurate term would be "host", and thats whats used in the books for the most part. The beetle that the Phoenix Force possessed does not become an avatar, for example.>.

point taken regarding terminology. you and cube are correct. my main points however, (bungling terminology aside) remain: (1) that not all hosts appear to be as powerful as others, and NO host is as powerful as jean. i doubt anyone other than jean could defeat galactus - or any true high end cosmic. and, (2) just because a phoenix 'host' is involved in a battle doesn't mean that host is invincible. which is what a lot of people seem to believe.

and there has ALWAYS been confusion (at least for me) about the pf, going all the way back to its inception.

I agree with you. And yes, there has always been confusion, because its a mythology. Its taken in different directions by different people. Gradually its been drifting back towards Claremonts initial vision, which was the Phoenix as the ultimate step in Jeans evolution as a psi. Nowawadays starting with Morrison its sort of accomodating both views- the Phoenix as an entity and force that exists in the universe, but also a mutant (Jean Grey) is intimately connected to it in some way, its "human form" or "living focus" in a sense. It is somehow related to her telekinesis. In Endsong the Shi'ar refer to Jean as its "heart".

Regarding the what if ,Jean had just re-trasformed after being lobotomized by the Sh'iar.Just like when Moira tests Jean in the Proteus saga and later in the Dark Phoenix saga,it is said here that the power grows geometrically (or exponentially) the more she uses it.When Jean re-transforms into Phoenix in UXM 137 after seeing Cyclops fall Xavier telepathically orders the x-men to attack her while she's still vulnerable,and they manage to hit her because she's stil weak.When in the What If Jean completely surrenders to Dark Phoenix she expands uncontrollably and consumes the Universe.
At this point Galactus (and everyone else) is a non-factor.
Giraud,just like Jean,had from the very first issue in which he was introduced psychic circuit breakers in place which held his power to manageable levels.And this was also the case for Rachel.When Necrom fought Rachel he said that he acceded only a tiny fraction of the Phoenix,but unlike her he wasnt afraid to use it.He destroyed a solar system,and the scale of his attacks was ever growing.While it is true that Jean is the only avatar,limitations are nearly always self-imposed.Necrom wasnt even a host,only a parasite,but used the power on a scale Rachel never dared to,because she acceded only the amount of power she felt comfortable with.

As for the Phoenix/Jean avatar thing:Jean dies on the Shuttle.In the moment of death,for an instant her telepathy becomes absolute,overstepping her mortal/physical limitations.She becomes one with all sentient life,past,present and future.Her telekinesis becomes absolute😖he becomes one with all matter and energy,time and space,all of creation.She can resurrect herself in a new body (hence Phoenix) and is reborn as an avatar of the force of creation,to which she offers an human viewpoint and the possibility to involve itself in creation from the inside.When she resurfaces from the waters in Uxm 101 Jean says deliriously: "the world,the stars,all of creation...are a part of me".However the experience was so overwhelming that she immediately began to negate it.
All manifestations of the phoenix that later bonded with Rachel,Madelyne,probably Giraud,etc. have been created by Jean in the moment of her transformation.

In X-Men the End Jean says to Kurt that the Phoenix is perfect for jumpstarting Creation,but some things require a human touch.Thats why she's unique,because she is Jean and Phoenix.The fact that she is human also means that she can be corrupted, manipulated, surrender to her dark side,etc.

In Morrison view Phoenix avatars are beings which are reborn through their version of the phoenix trasformation and can perform their tasks in the normal universe.Given that we'have seen various stray manifestations of the phoenix,and that even the survival of a Universe in NXM 154 did not seem much important to another Phoenix,it is seems that when the main task is accomplished,collateral damage or secondary consequences(even the destruction of single Universes) are not so important.We cannot say therefore that a phoenix host/avatar/wielder could not be permitted to reach enough power to defeat Galactus.

I put the Phoenix at the top of the hyerarchy because I like its symbology better.
The White Hot Room is the place where universes are born,are tended to when they are sick and die.It is an analog of the kabbalistic world of creation,where everything begins to exist.The Crown (the white light to wich the phoenixes fly at the end of Nxm 154) is described in the kabbalah as the alpha and omega of everything conceivable:not just actual universes,even imaginary ones.It is the state that trascends Creation,in which everything that was,is,will or could be exists in its archetypal form :"you were always there,waiting for yourself to arrive".Even Pre-Rec Beyonder was just the embodiment of a single Multiverse,while the IG derives from the Infinity Being,which to me was a previous incarnation of Eternity/Infinity.
Just like everything else they were conceived in the Crown and born in the White Hot Room.If the Phoenix really is an aspect of the Force of Creation,everything else descends from it.
The HOTU may be an artifact that someway directly taps into this force.We still dont know what its power source was.
So my hyerarchy is:

1) The Crown
2) Hotu
3) True Beyonders/Starbrand (multiversal level entities)/LT
4) Death/Oblivion
(Because even universes die eventually)
5) IG/Eternity/Infinity

and so on
The Phoenix as force of creation may be 1 or 1.5.The upper limit of an avatar/host is uncertain.

To Kgkg:if you're going by Pre-Rec Beyonder,then even him considered Rachel the only being in the Universe with the potential to be his equal (not LT ).And when Rachel made him experience the totality of life he realized he couldnt stop her even if he wanted,and felt humbled by what she made him see.

Fantastic post.

Originally posted by markolin
To Kgkg:if you're going by Pre-Rec Beyonder,then even him considered Rachel the only being in the Universe with the potential to be his equal (not LT ).And when Rachel made him experience the totality of life he realized he couldnt stop her even if he wanted,and felt humbled by what she made him see. [/B]

When did Beyonder say that? Issue number

When the Beyonder reclaims from Rachel his powers in uxm 203 the captions say that he tries to make her stop but she doesnt stop.He tries to move,but he cannot.That he wanted his power back,but what came back was far more that even he could bear.He is unable to stop Rachel and falls to the ground in shock saying "I never dreamed...never imagined...never conceived"

As for the Beyonder saying that Rachel is the only being with the potential to be his equal,around Uxm 196

Really good post Markolin. You should come on these forums more often.

Thanks Long Pig and Galactic Storm.You make me blush 😄

Originally posted by markolin
When the Beyonder reclaims from Rachel his powers in uxm 203 the captions say that he tries to make her stop but she doesnt stop.He tries to move,but he cannot.That he wanted his power back,but what came back was far more that even he could bear.He is unable to stop Rachel and falls to the ground in shock saying "I never dreamed...never imagined...never conceived"

where does it say She is = or can be a challege to Beyonder.

Beyonder to R says: you are what you are solely because I will it.

When he observes her in the comics that lead up to their encounter 201-202.In uxm 196 he says that of all the beings he encountered she was the one more similar to him.In uxm 202 he says that she refuses what she is when she could be much more.

"Beyonder to R says: you are what you are solely because I will it."
Still,when he asks his powers back he receives much more that he gave her,because through Phoenix he comes in contact with all life,and he could not stop the process even if he wanted.While Rachel is still an infant in the use of her power,the PF as the sum of all life comes across as greater than the Beyonder.

Originally posted by markolin
When he observes her in the comics that lead up to their encounter 201-202.In uxm 196 he says that of all the beings he encountered she was the one more similar to him.In uxm 202 he says that she refuses what she is when she could be much more.

"Beyonder to R says: you are what you are solely because I will it."
Still,when he asks his powers back he receives much more that he gave her,because through Phoenix he comes in contact with all life,and he could not stop the process even if he wanted.While Rachel is still an infant in the use of her power,the PF as the sum of all life comes across as greater than the Beyonder.

Absorb it, but he did.

He even killed death.

Pre Rec Beyonder was said to be the Strongest out there, limited by nothing.

again you didn't answer my question where does it say she was could be = to Pre rec beyonder power like you said.

In Uxm 196 he says that she has an incredible potential,of which she is not aware,and that of all the beings he encontered it is the one more similar to him.Which is more than he had to say of everyone else.

He did not fight the Phoenix Force.He did only fight Rachel,which he himself said was like a newborn baby compared to what she could have been at full potential.He gave her part of his power precisely to transform her into a true phoenix. Still,when he claimed back his powers,he could not stop the feedback,which came from the connection of Rachel with all life through the phoenix,and not from the power he gave her.He didnt appear much in control of the situation.

tell me, how would she be able to beat him?

Originally posted by markolin
In Uxm 196 he says that she has an incredible potential,of which she is not aware,and that of all the beings he encontered it is the one more similar to him.Which is more than he had to say of everyone else.

He did not fight the Phoenix Force.He did only fight Rachel,which he himself said was like a newborn baby compared to what she could have been at full potential.He gave her part of his power precisely to transform her into a true phoenix. Still,when he claimed back his powers,he could not stop the feedback,which came from the connection of Rachel with all life through the phoenix,and not from the power he gave her.He didnt appear much in control of the situation.

He giveth, he taketh. She couldn't keep her powers, nor could her powers prevent him from taking it way from her.

You can argue this and that about whats said, but she couldn't do a thing.

Furthermore, during the SW II, the Phoenix Force had nothing to do with the White Crown. There was no White Crown. Rachael was the host; the Phoenix Force was the being inside her that gave her power. The Phoenix Force was the fire bird that manifested every time she used her power - it was inside her.

If your going to bring in the White Crown and how PF is now a multiverse being because of Endsong, then we should see Rachael fighting nothing more than a misguided cube being that is the Beyonder. If your going to take one reckon, you should take the other.

If not, than the PF wasn't a multiverse level being. Beyonder gave Rachael it; he than took it away. Neither she nor PF was able to stop him from taking it away.

Above Death have any of you seen how many people have beaten Death? Grandmaster, Inbetweener who gets treated like an animal by Lord Order and Master Chaos, by the way Inbetweener fought Galactus to a stalemate, i dont think Death really has that much power She is just a very important part of the cosmic balance one of the most important parts with out Her things would to go shit nothing would die but if She fought someone one on one She would probably lose.

Pheonix wins. No problem.