Phoenix vs. Galactus

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]"And according to your logic, the White Crown was always part of the Phoenix Force even though it was invented years after SWII. Am I not right in this? You (the reader) NEED Endsong to know that there was a White Crown. Now since your using something years later, than your going to have to take the Beyonder reckonning. "

DO YOU NOT READ BOY!! I have already told you many a time even on this thread that the white crown business existed BEFORE secret wars 2 and it was made continuity again after the 86 retcon about a year and a half ago. i have already listed comic references. Therefore the above comment is VOID.

What storyline are you referring to

So basically give me the exact issues and X-titles. There's so many X-titles - so give me the exact one WHERE I'LL FIND THE WHITE CROWN. And I don't want any speculations to be drawn. It'd better say the White Crown along with Phoenix Force is multiverse level and it's got multiple host in each universe.

What a load of meaningless waffle. A waste of thread space if you ask me. For the purpose of discussion the beyonder was brought in as a means of conveying the power of jean the phoenix of the white crown. It was stated that it was PRE RETCON BEYONDER when his powers were REAL. Whether you like that or not B thats what us posters were discussing, its not your place to come in and say this and that doesnt mesh well and blah blah blah.

Pre-retcon Beyonder was a multiversal level being who humbled all other abstracts LT included. He toyed with Rachel a host of Jeans Phoenix essence by giving her additional power and reclaiming it. However when he did take it back he found that that small portion of Phoenix Rachel had, had augmented Beyonders energies given to her and gave him an insight into the true Phoenix which is Jean. Beyonder couldnt handle it and he fell to his knees. END OF.

Just like Pre Crisis Supes is used in discussions against modern day characters as a tool to gauge their power in comparison so to can Beyonder be used to convey the power of the phoenix of the white crown. Tons of pre retcon characters are discussed in these forums for that very reason yet ive never seen you once try to argue against it. Why now all of sudden? It wouldnt happen to have something to do with me would it? 🙄 Get over that punking you were dealt with B, are you really going to continuously follow me from Phoenix thread to phoenix thread trying to discredit mine and others' phoenix related arguments with lame off topic rantings? Thats quite lame to tell you the truth. Its quite eveident theres not much going on for you inthe real world, anyone would think you'd actually be nice to people on forums then. Oh well. 😱

Yes, people do use Pre-Reckonned Beyonder in a fight. But that's it, we use him in a fight or gauge him in the cosmic hierarchy. Just him and him only. PRE-RECKONNED BEYONDER. If we used Beyonder, we're only talking about the cube being.

What part of don't use an illusion to justisfy other character's feat/power don't you get? If your going to use Pre-Reckonned Beyonder to gauge PF, then why aren't we using Pre-Reckonned Phoenix Force to gauge her levels in the MU?

You take one reckon, you should take the other. Beyonder's reckon clearly affects Phoenix's reckon. Also, WHERE did it say PF was a multiverse level being WITH HOST/AVATAR IN EACH UNIVERSE? White Crown, what Crown was there before SWII?

You don't see me here debating that current Beyonder can beat LT or the IG since in the SWII and totally dominated the MU. The only time your going to see that is when it say PRE-RECKONNED Beyonder Vs. etc.

Originally posted by kgkg
Ok let’s play you game:

Retcon happened when 2003(and this is just you guess?)?
- Where did it say she created everything in multiverse?
- Only evidence we have is Reed who says
Phoenix Force = Big Bang = Universe
- Eternity says Phoenix will help guide humans and create big bang

PF is nothing but a match. Spark of creation? Yeah, you have a tank of gas, you lit a match, and poof you an explosion...fire...warmth...life...etc.

Entropy's role: It starts out as a ball of gas & matter...
PF's role: ...grows hotter and hotter, clustering, forming into a star...
Eternity's role: ...it lives it's life out as a sun/star...
Death's role: ...slowly it burns out...massive explosion/supernova
Entropy's role: ...matters flying every & clouds of gas in space...
PF's role: ...these matter & gas heat up...forms a new star...

Oblivion's role: A blackhole...nothingness

It's not exact astronomy, but it explains everyone's roles better. The universe itself starts out as a big ball of gas and matter, big explosion, the universe is form, the universe ends, the universe starts over or just ends. Same thing.

PF = match to light the gas tank to start the universe.

Originally posted by Beyonder
PF is nothing but a match. Spark of creation? Yeah, you have a tank of gas, you lit a match, and poof you an explosion...fire...warmth...life...etc.

Entropy's role: It starts out as a ball of gas & matter...
PF's role: ...grows hotter and hotter, clustering, forming into a star...
Eternity's role: ...it lives it's life out as a sun/star...
Death's role: ...slowly it burns out...massive explosion/supernova
Entropy's role: ...matters flying every & clouds of gas in space...
PF's role: ...these matter & gas heat up...forms a new star...

Oblivion's role: A blackhole...nothingness

It's not exact astronomy, but it explains everyone's roles better. The universe itself starts out as a big ball of gas and matter, big explosion, the universe is form, the universe ends, the universe starts over or just ends. Same thing.

PF = match to light the gas tank to start the universe.

Well I am waiting for GS with his rely.

Watcher words don't mean much, he said MM was the strongest in the Multiverse or some shit.

And GS is going on that assumption as a proven fact.

Other than even retcon or no recton Phoenix Force is powerful but second to God , and more powerful than LT . Nada

LT – has never, ever acknowledge Phoenix Force – universes, life has very little meaning to him. He was willing to destroy Eternity like he was nothing.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Before the retcon the primal force of creation is stated as second to TOAa. It is the force that creates everything. It is the force that is linked to TOAA in name and through symbology. The pre retcon phoenix is now the one which has been made current continuity. That is why endsong supported GM's reversions to Chris C's original deas and now FF has mentioned the Phoenix as being responsible for creation. Its slowly happening but other titles are starting to acknowledge phoenix in the hierarchy. Give it time and you'll see.

Just your speculation. There's no proof that the Primal Force of Creation is second to TOAA. If there is, bring quotes that says it's second to TOAA.

LT – has never, ever acknowledge Phoenix Force – universes, life has very little meaning to him. He was willing to destroy Eternity like he was nothing.

No he has never. Also, have you ever heard of the "Primal Force of Creation" ever being mentioned anywhere?

GS, speculates alot but can't prove PF is second to TOAA. LT, however, has been mentioned as second only to TOAA. I guess GS's speculations = facts...since he's such a Phoenix fan (and thus he MUST know more about the MU hierarchy & PF than us). 🙄

Watcher also recognize Apocalypse. 😆 It seems like almost everyone gets acknowledged by the Watcher.

Galactus and the Celestials ignore most people. Gods and cosmics alike often know of and or fear Galactus or the Celestial race. Who's ever given a damn really about the Watchers - even though his base is on the freaken moon.

Getting Galactus or a Celestial to notice you is a feat; getting a Watcher to notice you is like asking your grandma for money - you'll almost always get it.

...double post...

And really GS, don't make me explain the flaw in your symbolism logic again... Names mean nothing too.

Originally posted by Beyonder
PF is nothing but a match. Spark of creation? Yeah, you have a tank of gas, you lit a match, and poof you an explosion...fire...warmth...life...etc.

Entropy's role: It starts out as a ball of gas & matter...
PF's role: ...grows hotter and hotter, clustering, forming into a star...
Eternity's role: ...it lives it's life out as a sun/star...
Death's role: ...slowly it burns out...massive explosion/supernova
Entropy's role: ...matters flying every & clouds of gas in space...
PF's role: ...these matter & gas heat up...forms a new star...

Oblivion's role: A blackhole...nothingness

It's not exact astronomy, but it explains everyone's roles better. The universe itself starts out as a big ball of gas and matter, big explosion, the universe is form, the universe ends, the universe starts over or just ends. Same thing.

PF = match to light the gas tank to start the universe.

PF is also the embodiment of all life, past, present and future, but dont let that get in the way of your little analogy.

no pheonix was supposed to be the embodiement of all life YET UNBORN.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no pheonix was supposed to be the embodiement of all life YET UNBORN.

I think it's the embodiment of all life, born and unborn. I don't think that puts it above LT. Just above guys like Eternity.

no eternity was the embodiement of all the life of the inverse{hence makin it the opposite of death} pheonix was the embodiement of al desire and all life YET UNBORN, and was affectively below eternity, n thas why it bothers me to see a minor abstract become more powerful than a major one.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no eternity was the embodiement of all the life of the inverse{hence makin it the opposite of death} pheonix was the embodiement of al desire and all life YET UNBORN, and was affectively below eternity, n thas why it bothers me to see a minor abstract become more powerful than a major one.

Eternity is the embodiment of the Universe. The Phoenix is the embodiment of all life, past, present, and future, in the MULTIVERSE. That's above Eternity.

thas not how the official story started out , officially pheonix is the embodiement of all life yet unborn, and all desire, and it doesnt have power of all the life in the multiverse, i dont know of any comic where it even states that pheonix has the power off all life past present and future of the UNIVERSE much less the multiverse.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Eternity is the embodiment of the Universe. The Phoenix is the embodiment of all life, past, present, and future, in the MULTIVERSE. That's above Eternity.

Let's see
Death - multiversal

Order/ Chaos are also multiversal - when the multiverse was in trouble LT had fight the starbands , Order and Chaos were present.

Where ever there has been a distribution in the multiverse.

LT , Eternity , Order , Chaos are always there

Order and Chaos have multiversal effect.

But eternity is seen as a bigger gun when it comes to power.

yes but even these abstracts are basically universal level ones, the only reason they can operate on a multiverse level is because THEY HAVE COUNTERPARTS in every universe of the multiverse meaning that there are an infinite number of inifinitys deaths etc. each individual in its own universe, living tribunal is the ONLY abstract officially who does not have a counterpart, he alone guards the entire multiverse, now IF there is an INDIVIDUAL pheonix force designated to every universe in the multiverse then and only then will i believe that pheonix has some standing in the multiverse, but even then the jean grey we know as the pheonix is of this universe and hence her powers are at a universal level, not the multiversal level.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes but even these abstracts are basically universal level ones, the only reason they can operate on a multiverse level is because THEY HAVE COUNTERPARTS in every universe of the multiverse meaning that there are an infinite number of inifinitys deaths etc. each individual in its own universe, living tribunal is the ONLY abstract officially who does not have a counterpart, he alone guards the entire multiverse, now IF there is an INDIVIDUAL pheonix force designated to every universe in the multiverse then and only then will i believe that pheonix has some standing in the multiverse, but even then the jean grey we know as the pheonix is of this universe and hence her powers are at a universal level, not the multiversal level.

Yes there are many eternity etc.

But the concept such as death , Chaos , Order are multiversal , you don't see all the chaos, order of all universes coming together do you?

In every crisis there has always been one Chaos and Order

There is only one abstract (idea) of the multiverse.

In SSII – you saw the mighty of the multiverse
When LT was trying to lock the Starband we didn’t see Eternity, but we say Order , and Chaos but having effect on the multiverse.

Lt just rules over all these abstract and is below no one , and has never been defeated other than HOTU

It's like this:

TOAA = Farm Owner

LT = Head Farm Hand with Shotgun that oversees and protects the farm.

Phoenix = The seed that grows all the plants, the sperm and egg that concieves all the animals, and the fire that burns them all away to start the cycle all over again when necessary.

If anything, Phoenix is the worker and LT is the supervisor that sits in his office on porn websites all day until he needs to act on something.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It's like this:

TOAA = Farm Owner

LT = Head Farm Hand with Shotgun that oversees and protects the farm.

Phoenix = The seed that grows all the plants, the sperm and egg that concieves all the animals, and the fire that burns them all away to start the cycle all over again when necessary.

If anything, Phoenix is the worker and LT is the supervisor that sits in his office on porn websites all day until he needs to act on something.

I see what youre trying to do their but phoenix isnt portrayed like that at all. Its not a being that is below LT. Its a force that is one with and created everything. Its the primal force of creation. Its not a being for a power like Thasnos to see as an obstacle in his path to becoming top of the hierarchy. Its a force just like in Star Wars. Jean calls herself in uncanny xmen 135 'tiphereth'. Tiphereth is a sephiroth, a vessel for gods essence. On the kabbalah mystic tree of life which runs from the divine(the heavens) into the world of man. The crown(the white hot room which as you know is actually in the comics) is at the top of the tree and tiphereth is in the middle. As jean says in uncanny she is the 'heart and soul of the mystic tree of life'

Creation is a force that runs throughout the mystic tree of life and Jean is called in the same run "the primal force of creation"

The path between the top of the tree of life in kaballah the crown(white hot room) and tiphereth (Jean as is actually stated in the comics) is called the flight of the phoenix. In kabbalah the crown is seen as the completion of the great work, a level of consciousness that reprsents union with God. Jean who is called the phoenix of the white crown after having completed her phoenix duties as dictated to her by the Voice in the white hot room returns to it.

Claremonts original phoenix stories and Grant M's New Xmen and even Endsong are all saturated with not only kaballah symbology but jean actually calls herself tiphereth and takes the kabbalah 'flight of the phoenix' in the comics. Its foolish to ignore this all especially just on the grounds of not liking the character.

are u sayin that pheonix force = THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? lololololololol

lmao!!!!!!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
are u sayin that pheonix force = THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSE?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!? lololololololol

lmao!!!!!!

Stop trying it because i made you look stupid on the other thread. I never said that, YOU came to that conclusion. Im not coming up with anything myself im just stating whats said in the comics, what jean refers herself to and for those not well read on the matter im giving you definitions and explanations. Simple as.

oh no u didnt, read it again dumass, im a polite person but dont get me started, ur not just writin facts, ur also representin ur viewpoint, n it looks pretty much like ur sayin that pheonix created the multiverse