Phoenix vs. Galactus

Originally posted by Beyonder
He giveth, he taketh. She couldn't keep her powers, nor could her powers prevent him from taking it way from her.

You can argue this and that about whats said, but she couldn't do a thing.

Furthermore, during the SW II, the Phoenix Force had nothing to do with the White Crown. There was no White Crown. Rachael was the host; the Phoenix Force was the being inside her that gave her power. The Phoenix Force was the fire bird that manifested every time she used her power - it was inside her.

If your going to bring in the White Crown and how PF is now a multiverse being because of Endsong, then we should see Rachael fighting nothing more than a misguided cube being that is the Beyonder. If your going to take one reckon, you should take the other.

If not, than the PF wasn't a multiverse level being. Beyonder gave Rachael it; he than took it away. Neither she nor PF was able to stop him from taking it away.

do you understand the concept of "full potential" and "evolving power levels"? 😕

The original beyonder would have punked the entire multiverse, I'm not surprised he could drain the Phoenix out of Rachel.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
do you understand the concept of "full potential" and "evolving power levels"? 😕

So the PF evolved into a multiverse level being and evolved the White Crown?

Do you not understand reckons? During SW II, there was no such thing as White Crown or Phoenix having a thing to do with the creation of the universe much less multiverse.

The original beyonder would have punked the entire multiverse, I'm not surprised he could drain the Phoenix out of Rachel.

Yup. He gave her the PF, and he took it away. He said this and that, but he took it away and she couldn't do a thing about it - neither could the PF.

To mix in Endsong with SW II just doesn't mesh. During SWII, there was no White Crown. During Endsong, the Beyonder has already been reckon as being a cube being - and cube beings are above Skyfather only a notch or two, below Galactus.

Phoenix started as the huge force, was retconed into an entity, then un-retconed into the multiversal force again. Confusing stuff, still no clear indication of how powerful it really is though, I've gone into long explanations on parallels vs. equivalents on the very subject of Phoenix. There's just too many unknowns though. It beatws the crap out of Galactus either way though...

Originally posted by Beyonder

Yup. He gave her the PF, and he took it away. He said this and that, but he took it away and she couldn't do a thing about it - neither could the PF.
s.

he "gave" her the PF? You are completely mistaken. Rachel received a portion of her mother when she was first timetravelling to the current era as the force returned to Jean's old body in the coccoon. It lay dormant until the Beyonder. He didn't "give" her anything.

He took it away, big deal. Like I said, original beyonder was insane, and yes, what he said matters.

now you just sound like you dont want to accept certain parts of the story. "gave" her the PF indeed...

"So the PF evolved into a multiverse level being and evolved the White Crown?

Do you not understand reckons? During SW II, there was no such thing as White Crown or Phoenix having a thing to do with the creation of the universe much less multiverse."

You're very wrong here B. The white crown Phoenix and jean being phoenix through the primal force of creation existed waaaaayy before SW2. That was Chris C's idea originally and it is the one that has been made current continuity once again. This phoenix was second only to TOAA. Try reading Uncanny Xmen 101- 137 and Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43 to educate yourself. Jean was back then and is right now(thanks to GM and also endsong) phoenix. There's no separate force entity. Remember the phoenix retcon happened in 86. When did Secret Wars 2 occur? The portion of phoenix rachel had was just a portion of jeans phoenix essense. Jean is the original avatar. Rachel is just a host and has nowhere near her mothers power levels. If you read Secret Wars 2 you will see that the phoenix has a connection with all life in existence because when beyonder takes his power back from Rachel he finds that through her connection with Phoenix he getting an insight into what it is all about. Creation, life in all its myriad forms and he is overwhelmed and falls to the ground. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown. Being united with the primal force of creation as you can see would overwhelm the beyonder in his pre rec state.

"To mix in Endsong with SW II just doesn't mesh. During SWII, there was no White Crown. During Endsong, the Beyonder has already been reckon as being a cube being - and cube beings are above Skyfather only a notch or two, below Galactus."

There is no ned to mix in Endsong with Secret Wars and it really doesnt matter if you do because it makes no real difference. Endsong and GM's run on New Xmen were just cementing as continuity Chris C's ideas on Phoenix, not creating new ones. Those ideas were continuity waaay before Secret Wars 2.

Beyonder taking on more than he can handle:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder taking on more than he can handle:

💃

how would phoenix be able to defeat a full powered galactus

even normal not soridiculously powered dark pheonix handled galactus before, im pretty sure galactus is destroyed in this matchup.

Originally posted by WOLVERINEFAN
how would phoenix be able to defeat a full powered galactus

Phoenix created and is one with the multiverse, Galactus eats planets. theres no comparison.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

You're very wrong here B. The white crown Phoenix and jean being phoenix through the primal force of creation existed waaaaayy before SW2. That was Chris C's idea originally and it is the one that has been made current continuity once again. This phoenix was second only to TOAA. Try reading Uncanny Xmen 101- 137 and Classic Xmen 8, 42 and 43 to educate yourself. Jean was back then and is right now(thanks to GM and also endsong) phoenix. There's no separate force entity. Remember the phoenix retcon happened in 86. When did Secret Wars 2 occur? The portion of phoenix rachel had was just a portion of jeans phoenix essense. Jean is the original avatar. Rachel is just a host and has nowhere near her mothers power levels. If you read Secret Wars 2 you will see that the phoenix has a connection with all life in existence because when beyonder takes his power back from Rachel he finds that through her connection with Phoenix he getting an insight into what it is all about. Creation, life in all its myriad forms and he is overwhelmed and falls to the ground. Jean as Phoenix of the white crown. Being united with the primal force of creation as you can see would overwhelm the beyonder in his pre rec state.

"To mix in Endsong with SW II just doesn't mesh. During SWII, there was no White Crown. During Endsong, the Beyonder has already been reckon as being a cube being - and cube beings are above Skyfather only a notch or two, below Galactus."

There is no ned to mix in Endsong with Secret Wars and it really doesnt matter if you do because it makes no real difference. Endsong and GM's run on New Xmen were just cementing as continuity Chris C's ideas on Phoenix, not creating new ones. Those ideas were continuity waaay before Secret Wars 2. [/B]

No you don't get it. There was no White Crown or anything of the sort during SWII.

Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny.

he "gave" her the PF? You are completely mistaken. Rachel received a portion of her mother when she was first timetravelling to the current era as the force returned to Jean's old body in the coccoon. It lay dormant until the Beyonder. He didn't "give" her anything.

He took it away, big deal. Like I said, original beyonder was insane, and yes, what he said matters.

now you just sound like you dont want to accept certain parts of the story. "gave" her the PF indeed...

And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it.

Originally posted by Beyonder
No you don't get it. There was no White Crown or anything of the sort during SWII.

Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny.

And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it.

That was lame B. What you've said has changed nothing im afraid.

"Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny. "

Secret Wars 2 occurred from July 85 to March 86. This happened BEFORE the phoenix retcon. Therefore Phoenix was jean in union with the primal force of creation which was second only to TOAA and created existence, Jean was Phoenix of the White Crown. 🙄

"And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it"

Whats your point? That was Rachel. Who had a portion of Jeans essence and was still crazy powerful. No she couldnt have done a thing about it. But as you saw from my pic and as you've learned from my teachings over the last few weeks, her mother very well could.

"No you don't get it"

YOU dont get it B my boy/girl whatever you are.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

YOU dont get it B my boy/girl whatever you are. [/B]

...that your a Phoenix fanboy/girl trying to hype up Phoenix Force as always being multiverse level and second only to TOAA? 🤣

Your also the one to think:
PF>LT
PF>HOTU - since the HOTU only controls the Multiverse & Phoenix Force created (riiiight) the Multiverse
PF>IG - when it hasn't done anyting to shown that it's greater than the group of cosmic elites which the IG casually dismisses.

Rant on baby, rant on like the rains of the monsoon. Your still a PF lover whose overhyping things. 😈

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder taking on more than he can handle:

WOW. Kudos to GS.

Originally posted by Beyonder
...that your a Phoenix fanboy/girl trying to hype up Phoenix Force as always being multiverse level and second only to TOAA? 🤣

Your also the one to think:
PF>LT
PF>HOTU - since the HOTU only controls the Multiverse & Phoenix Force created (riiiight) the Multiverse
PF>IG - when it hasn't done anyting to shown that it's greater than the group of cosmic elites which the IG casually dismisses.

Rant on baby, rant on like the rains of the monsoon. Your still a PF lover whose overhyping things. 😈

This was the best you could come up with B? 🙄

Dear boy at the end of the day what i say is supported in the comics.

I have no desire to argue with you. I pity u, really i do. Whenever youre ready to converse in an adult manner then giv me a PM it would be my pleasure to enlighten you.

Originally posted by Beyonder
No you don't get it. There was no White Crown or anything of the sort during SWII.

Connected to all life; it doesn't mean the universe: time, space, reality, matter, etc. Your so overestimating her powers it ain't even funny.

of course there was. Just cuz the concept of the White Crown was invented later doesnt mean it didnt exist before. Galactus was invented after the Marvel Universe, so I guess he didnt exist from the start?

she (jean) is the fire that ignited the first spark of creation:

Originally posted by Beyonder

And there we have it. He took it away and she couldn't do a damn thing about it.

there you have it. not only did he not "give" her the PF, like you claimed, he was overwhelmed by it. Yes, the mighty beyonder, pre-retcon, a being outside the multiverse itself, OVERWHELMED. Unable to handle it 😈

Not to mention it was Rachel- a weaker host- first awakening to her powers. Yea, big surprise the Beyonder was able to drain her.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This was the best you could come up with B? 🙄

Dear boy at the end of the day what i say is supported in the comics.

I have no desire to argue with you. I pity u, really i do. Whenever youre ready to converse in an adult manner then giv me a PM it would be my pleasure to enlighten you.

Before this story recently come up, it was known IG>PF, or HOTU>PF, LT>PF. Now suddenly everything changed. I like better before. It's just annyoing that about PF, almighty, ascpet of TOAA. Why not brigning Pre Beyodner int the game again. The writers are jsut making something. If Pre Beyonder would again show up, we all would be saying, so he was always that powerful, everyhitng can change in second if writers make that and he can come up with logicall explanation, cause there can always be some explanation. I mean they could make now some mutant among most powerful cosmic beings, believe it, they would come with some logical explanation, how, why. It's jsut annyong sometimes.

Originally posted by FieryBalrog
[B]of course there was. Just cuz the concept of the White Crown was invented later doesnt mean it didnt exist before. Galactus was invented after the Marvel Universe, so I guess he didnt exist from the start?

she (jean) is the fire that ignited the first spark of creation:

And so basically we have, the Beyonder fighting Rachael and making his statement - but still taking her powers away.

And according to your logic, the White Crown was always part of the Phoenix Force even though it was invented years after SWII. Am I not right in this? You (the reader) NEED Endsong to know that there was a White Crown. Now since your using something years later, than your going to have to take the Beyonder reckonning.

Thus, all was said and done by the Beyonder were mere illusions. Beyonder beating LT, Galactus, Death, etc. - including Rachael - was nothing but an ILLUSION. He was never that powerful - and even in his illusion Rachael lost. Even if the White Crown existed; the Beyonder never actually fought the Phoenix Force/Rachael or other high level beings.

1] Either you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - WITHOUT the White Crown because your only looking at the SW II timeline where Beyonder WASN'T RECKONNED.

2] Or you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - with the WITH the White Crown established due to Endsong which came years AFTER Beyonder WAS RECKCONNED. If it's two, than it was all an illusion.

Thus, there was no feat. Please don't bring up Pre-Reckonned Beyonder's statement about Rachael or Rachael's feat as evidence of the Phoenix Force.

"And according to your logic, the White Crown was always part of the Phoenix Force even though it was invented years after SWII. Am I not right in this? You (the reader) NEED Endsong to know that there was a White Crown. Now since your using something years later, than your going to have to take the Beyonder reckonning. "

DO YOU NOT READ BOY!! I have already told you many a time even on this thread that the white crown business existed BEFORE secret wars 2 and it was made continuity again after the 86 retcon about a year and a half ago. i have already listed comic references. Therefore the above comment is VOID.

"Thus, all was said and done by the Beyonder were mere illusions. Beyonder beating LT, Galactus, Death, etc. - including Rachael - was nothing but an ILLUSION. He was never that powerful - and even in his illusion Rachael lost. Even if the White Crown existed; the Beyonder never actually fought the Phoenix Force/Rachael or other high level beings.

1] Either you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - WITHOUT the White Crown because your only looking at the SW II timeline where Beyonder WASN'T RECKONNED.

2] Or you have Rachael losing to Beyonder - with the WITH the White Crown established due to Endsong which came years AFTER Beyonder WAS RECKCONNED. If it's two, than it was all an illusion.

Thus, there was no feat. Please don't bring up Pre-Reckonned Beyonder's statement about Rachael or Rachael's feat as evidence of the Phoenix Force."

What a load of meaningless waffle. A waste of thread space if you ask me. For the purpose of discussion the beyonder was brought in as a means of conveying the power of jean the phoenix of the white crown. It was stated that it was PRE RETCON BEYONDER when his powers were REAL. Whether you like that or not B thats what us posters were discussing, its not your place to come in and say this and that doesnt mesh well and blah blah blah.

Pre-retcon Beyonder was a multiversal level being who humbled all other abstracts LT included. He toyed with Rachel a host of Jeans Phoenix essence by giving her additional power and reclaiming it. However when he did take it back he found that that small portion of Phoenix Rachel had, had augmented Beyonders energies given to her and gave him an insight into the true Phoenix which is Jean. Beyonder couldnt handle it and he fell to his knees. END OF.

Just like Pre Crisis Supes is used in discussions against modern day characters as a tool to gauge their power in comparison so to can Beyonder be used to convey the power of the phoenix of the white crown. Tons of pre retcon characters are discussed in these forums for that very reason yet ive never seen you once try to argue against it. Why now all of sudden? It wouldnt happen to have something to do with me would it? 🙄 Get over that punking you were dealt with B, are you really going to continuously follow me from Phoenix thread to phoenix thread trying to discredit mine and others' phoenix related arguments with lame off topic rantings? Thats quite lame to tell you the truth. Its quite eveident theres not much going on for you inthe real world, anyone would think you'd actually be nice to people on forums then. Oh well. 😱

pheonix gettin the power over the abstracts is one of the crappiest piece of writing in marvel history.