I don't think a religion can be completely true for certain all by itself and no other. All we can live on is faith. If someone is a christian, they could have just as easily been born into a family that raised them as a different religion. Then, they would talk about how Christianity is wrong. So I don't think anyone can truly tell someone else their religion is truly wrong, because they could have just as easily been born into another family that practices a different religion.
Originally posted by sailormoon
I don't think a religion can be completely true for certain all by itself and no other. All we can live on is faith. If someone is a christian, they could have just as easily been born into a family that raised them as a different religion. Then, they would talk about how Christianity is wrong. So I don't think anyone can truly tell someone else their religion is truly wrong, because they could have just as easily been born into another family that practices a different religion.
Originally posted by Alliance
I think post of religion is being raised, which i think undermines the credibility of any one religion. It is more about having a faith, and therefore no one religion is different than any other.
You guys are partially right. No one religion can ever be percieved to be true by everyone. The thing is that perceptions have nothing to do with whether it's true or not. Faith is a part of religion, true. But the question at hand isn't whether the faith is right, but whether or not what a person places their faith in is true. Perhaps it's a subtle difference, but there it is. If Jesus wasn't the savior, then putting faith in him does about as much good as putting it in something fictional like superman. If it is true, then that makes all the difference.
no one religion can contain every single thing that people want/need/believe in.
so no one religion cannot be true to all. i dont believe in god as the almighty, people dont agree with the fact that i do not hold myself to the beliefs of one religion, i infact believe in a coagulation of religious beliefs. but im satisfied with that because it is what i feel to be true and thats all that matters to me.
* yes, but i like to put it this way - no religion can be accepted by everyone because the true religion cannot please everyone...
"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
James 1:26-27
* the true religion is stated in the Bible... the group that abides in accordance with the Bible is the true religion...
Only according to the Bible......Now god being all loving certainly would make sure we had many sources along with a loud voice to make sure we would know the true religion....Since god HAS NOT, then either A. He doesn't care, or B. It doesn't matter or C. He's a nasty masochist who plays with us for his entertainment just to throw us in hell...
I used to think that whatever you believed, that's what would happen to your soul or spirit when you died. If you believe in the Egyptian pantheon, your morality will be judged by Anubis after your demise; Christians, Jews, and Muslims will probably end up in about the same place; Atheists will cease to exist; Buddhists, Jainists, and Hindus will be ressurected or head off to nirvana; someone who follows a religion in which your afterlife is filled with beer and hot orgies will go to an afterlife filled with beer and hot orgies. So, basically, all religions are fact.
Of course, that what I used to think. Now I'm really unsure about my thoughts...
Well, I said that I'm unsure. I don't necessarily follow a religion, so I can't say what's true and what's not very easily. Maybe we cease to exist as Atheists like to think, or maybe we are sent off to heaven or hell depending on our morality during life. No one can be sure, and I rarely deal in subjects where I have a good chance of being wrong...
Originally posted by ðµhµl gê†ñåh
no one religion can contain every single thing that people want/need/believe in.so no one religion cannot be true to all. i dont believe in god as the almighty, people dont agree with the fact that i do not hold myself to the beliefs of one religion, i infact believe in a coagulation of religious beliefs. but im satisfied with that because it is what i feel to be true and thats all that matters to me.
Another way to look at it is like eye witnesses. 100 different people see the same event and you get 100 different accounts. The question then becomes are all 100 accounts right? Of course not, There is still only one series of events, just a hundred memories of the event. if the robber was wearing a blue shirt, then of course the guy who said it was red is wrong, etc.
In the same way, you can have a lot of "religions", but in the end there is only one truth.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Only according to the Bible......Now god being all loving certainly would make sure we had many sources along with a loud voice to make sure we would know the true religion....Since god HAS NOT, then either A. He doesn't care, or B. It doesn't matter or C. He's a nasty masochist who plays with us for his entertainment just to throw us in hell...
Or D. people are ignoring the voice (God's good so He ain't gonna force ya to listen) or maybe E. Faith is part of a test/training to see what kind of Eternal reward we can handle.
There are plenty of reasons that a loving God would treat the world the way he seems to. A parable:
Once there was a tree. The tree was happy (yes, I'm anthropomorphizing my tree 😛 ). Then one day the Gardener came by and cut a bunch of branches off the tree. This of course was very painful for the tree, he loved his nice green branches. This happened fairly regularly through the life of the tree and the tree and he held a profound dislike for the gardener until one day he realized that he was taller, stronger and gave bigger and better fruit than he would have without the care of the gardener.
Perhaps we just haven't seen what the Gardener is really doing to us...
Or D. people are ignoring the voice (God's good so He ain't gonna force ya to listen) or maybe E. Faith is part of a test/training to see what kind of Eternal reward we can handle.
Sorry bro, i dont buy that whole "Are you worthy?" Deal. There are non christian people who are more morally good than some Christian people.
My goal in life is to be a good person, not a good Christian, a good person. To me that only entails living your life as long as you don't harm another person. Harm to me comes in the forms of torture, murder and control. Any of these 3 inacted onto another person is a violation of thier rights as a human being, and therefore evil.
Anything other than that to me, is not rationally definable as "evil"
God doesn't have to force us to do anything. All he has to do is show up himself and say "I EXIST" clearly and plainly, none of these BS riddles and mysteries.....religion has been responsible for most of the conflict of this world, and most of its evils
(IE. Salem Witch Trials, Selling of Indulgences, Spanish Inquistion, etc.)
Religion has NOT solved any problems. It did more bad than good throughout history.
The Bible has been around for thousands of years, yet the world is still in deep sh#@$.......wouldn;'t a rational God just go "okay they don't get it...let me clarify my existance by SHOWING up instead of sending hypocrits and pedifiles to represent me)
You can never explain away the Biblical and historical contradictions of the church or any church taht exists.
The only religion that seems to TRULY preach about love and respect for human right is Buddhism.
Every other religion has violated our "free will".
There are plenty of reasons that a loving God would treat the world the way he seems to. A parable:
Once there was a tree. The tree was happy (yes, I'm anthropomorphizing my tree ). Then one day the Gardener came by and cut a bunch of branches off the tree. This of course was very painful for the tree, he loved his nice green branches. This happened fairly regularly through the life of the tree and the tree and he held a profound dislike for the gardener until one day he realized that he was taller, stronger and gave bigger and better fruit than he would have without the care of the gardener.
Perhaps we just haven't seen what the Gardener is really doing to us...
FAITH? What's it good for? The Afterlife ? Nobody knows if thats true...we should be more focused on THIS LIFE then in the next one. People are SUFFERING...people are dying and starving every day ! Instead of telling people what religion they should fkn be, lets FEED THEM, lets FIGHT POVERTY AND INGORANCE AND HATRED FOR REALLLLLLL....
STOP fightin gay marriage and other things that have no EFFECT on you or anyone else. STOP telling people how to live thier lives and give them the ability TO MAKE THIER OWN CHOICES by making sure every human's rights are not violated. That simple.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[B]Or D. people are ignoring the voice (God's good so He ain't gonna force ya to listen) or maybe E. Faith is part of a test/training to see what kind of Eternal reward we can handle.Sorry bro, i dont buy that whole "Are you worthy?" Deal. There are non christian people who are more morally good than some Christian people.
My goal in life is to be a good person, not a good Christian, a good person. To me that only entails living your life as long as you don't harm another person. Harm to me comes in the forms of torture, murder and control. Any of these 3 inacted onto another person is a violation of thier rights as a human being, and therefore evil.
Anything other than that to me, is not rationally definable as "evil"
God doesn't have to force us to do anything. All he has to do is show up himself and say "I EXIST" clearly and plainly, none of these BS riddles and mysteries.....religion has been responsible for most of the conflict of this world, and most of its evils
(IE. Salem Witch Trials, Selling of Indulgences, Spanish Inquistion, etc.)
Religion has NOT solved any problems. It did more bad than good throughout history.
The Bible has been around for thousands of years, yet the world is still in deep sh#@$.......wouldn;'t a rational God just go "okay they don't get it...let me clarify my existance by SHOWING up instead of sending hypocrits and pedifiles to represent me)
You can never explain away the Biblical and historical contradictions of the church or any church taht exists.
The only religion that seems to TRULY preach about love and respect for human right is Buddhism.
Every other religion has violated our "free will".
There are plenty of reasons that a loving God would treat the world the way he seems to. A parable:
Once there was a tree. The tree was happy (yes, I'm anthropomorphizing my tree ). Then one day the Gardener came by and cut a bunch of branches off the tree. This of course was very painful for the tree, he loved his nice green branches. This happened fairly regularly through the life of the tree and the tree and he held a profound dislike for the gardener until one day he realized that he was taller, stronger and gave bigger and better fruit than he would have without the care of the gardener.
Perhaps we just haven't seen what the Gardener is really doing to us...
FAITH? What's it good for? The Afterlife ? Nobody knows if thats true...we should be more focused on THIS LIFE then in the next one. People are SUFFERING...people are dying and starving every day ! Instead of telling people what religion they should fkn be, lets FEED THEM, lets FIGHT POVERTY AND INGORANCE AND HATRED FOR REALLLLLLL....
STOP fightin gay marriage and other things that have no EFFECT on you or anyone else. STOP telling people how to live thier lives and give them the ability TO MAKE THIER OWN CHOICES by making sure every human's rights are not violated. That simple. [/B]
Whoa there, you drew so many conclusions out of the air there I don't even know where to begin.
A- I never even mentioned christianity, I said there is a true religion, not which it is. who's to say that even if Christianity is right that God couldn't find some way to let all those good people who weren't christians get the rest of whatever they need to get into heaven.
B- the testing training thing makes more sense if you look at "heaven" as an actual state of being rather than some arbitrary prize. Just like an athlete has to train to be able to compete in the olympics.
As far as what religion or the bible has done to improve the world... Have you studied history at all? The world before Abraham pretty much sucked. Slavery bigtime worse than anything we've had in america. Human sacrifice, usually slaves and children. Superstitions, ignorance, power being held only by a few, and no upward mobility. People worshipped statues for crying out loud.
No my friend, the world is a much better place because of judaism and christianity.
Interesting thing about buddhism is how it became a religion in the first place. Buddha never claimed divinity. He was a reformer of hinduism. I think he'd laugh at all the people rubbing the bellies of statues of him.
Faith is how things get done. It's more than just belief. You have to have faith that you can succeed before you will even try.
Whoa there, you drew so many conclusions out of the air there I don't even know where to begin.
You could have began by addressing my definition of what true evil is. That was the crux of my entire argument. It is not my goal to change anyone's religion per say, just to have people question what they define as evil.
A- I never even mentioned christianity, I said there is a true religion, not which it is. who's to say that even if Christianity is right that God couldn't find some way to let all those good people who weren't christians get the rest of whatever they need to get into heaven.
If Heaven exists than God would allow everyone in, if he excluded anyone it would be those who possess the cruelist and most sadistic of mentalities. Unless you beleive in the Angry Old Testament version of God who punishes people as easily and for as stupid reasons as ZEUS does.
B- the testing training thing makes more sense if you look at "heaven" as an actual state of being rather than some arbitrary prize. Just like an athlete has to train to be able to compete in the olympics.
Comparing a spiritual world to a physical one is almost never convincing for this kind of debate. If heaven is a place of eternal beauty, happiness and "perfection" then it is beyond human behavior to acheive this knowing that we are all flawed and all have our natural biases and emotions.
Our physical bodies are limitted by our physics and biology. How do you know that our spirits are so limitted that we have to take the initiative to "increase thier mass" as your Olympic example suggested?
Heaven a prize? No, i thnk we agree there it shouldnt be considered such. A state of being? MAYBE......
As far as what religion or the bible has done to improve the world... Have you studied history at all? The world before Abraham pretty much sucked. Slavery bigtime worse than anything we've had in america. Human sacrifice, usually slaves and children. Superstitions, ignorance, power being held only by a few, and no upward mobility. People worshipped statues for crying out loud.
Again I stand behind my point. The bible has done more bad than good. The Bible has been used as an excuse to burn innocent women at the Salem Witch Trials, the Bible promoted slavery and war in the old testament. The Isrealites were told by God to slaugher pagan men women and children. The CRUSADES were all backed up by people's religious beleifs. HATRED against homosexuals today is fueled by religious doctrine. Human sacrafice? people have been using the Bible and Torah as an excuse to murder for centuries bro. People worshipping statues? Are you telling me this was the greatest evil that occured before? HA .......George Washington was a freemason (watch History channel) he beleived that religion oppressed free thinking, creativity and limitted human civil rights. That program was on last night.
No my friend, the world is a much better place because of judaism and christianity.
With Bible thumping George DUBYA BUSH sacraficing our families sons to invade Iraq, then IRAN, the way he and fat ass Cheney chop down RAIN FORESTS territory in South America ? The way he is trying to prevent Gays for a civil right they should be entitled to ?
The ONLY Christianity that i consider actual PURE GOOD is Franciscanism. MOTHER TERESA is the only religious figure i consider a TRUE SAINT.
Interesting thing about buddhism is how it became a religion in the first place. Buddha never claimed divinity. He was a reformer of hinduism. I think he'd laugh at all the people rubbing the bellies of statues of him.
GEt out of ignorance bro. Rubbing his stomach is a tradition, no one takes it seriously. Not all Buddhists worship him as a God.....Buddhists are appealed by the nature of LOVE that is preached....lacking in judgement, lacking in prejudice, and ULTAMATE respect for life......there is nothing to critisize about Buddhism in that respect.
Faith is how things get done. It's more than just belief. You have to have faith that you can succeed before you will even try.
Faith is a wondorful thing, but ultamately ACTION and RESEARCH do the job. BLIND FAITH can lead to tragedies. It's not Faith that is flawed, its WHAT you have Faith in.
Faith is beleiving in something you DONT know to be true.....it's romantic, honorable, but not completely reliable.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Again I stand behind my point. The bible has done more bad than good. The Bible has been used as an excuse to burn innocent women at the Salem Witch Trials, the Bible promoted slavery and war in the old testament. The Isrealites were told by God to slaugher pagan men women and children. The CRUSADES were all backed up by people's religious beleifs. HATRED against homosexuals today is fueled by religious doctrine. Human sacrafice? people have been using the Bible and Torah as an excuse to murder for centuries bro. People worshipping statues? Are you telling me this was the greatest evil that occured before? HA .......George Washington was a freemason (watch History channel) he beleived that religion oppressed free thinking, creativity and limitted human civil rights. That program was on last night.
only quoted the main thing I wanted ot correct you on. The things you pointed out are pretty much aberrations of christian thought. The bad always seems to stand out more than the good. But you're forgetting the times when it was religion that was oppressed, ie Martyrs, persecution (roman or otherwise), etc. Quakers have as good a claim on being an example of christianity as does the inquisition for example. The good followers of whatever religion generally don't make the waves that the hypocrites in the religion do.
As far as Washington goes, try reading his farewell address. Sounds like he was in favor of religion to me. What he did believe is that religion should stay out of government, but that people actually need religion. (by the way in order to be a freemason you have to believe in a supreme being)
By the way, thanks for at least considering my heaven as a state of being argument.
And as far as faith goes, your right that blind faith can lead you down a bad course, but faith in something that's true will reward you in some way. Blind faith = consequences, true faith = rewards. Think of it like a map, if your map is bad, you end up somewhere you don't want to be or just get lost, if you're following a good map, you get to your destination. Faith is more than just belief, its got an element of trust and hope in it too.
only quoted the main thing I wanted ot correct you on. The things you pointed out are pretty much aberrations of christian thought. The bad always seems to stand out more than the good. But you're forgetting the times when it was religion that was oppressed, ie Martyrs, persecution (roman or otherwise), etc. Quakers have as good a claim on being an example of christianity as does the inquisition for example. The good followers of whatever religion generally don't make the waves that the hypocrites in the religion do.
First I want to say that you sound very intelligent and rational the way you debate. I feel that i might find much success in learning and debating with a person like yourself......
I never forgot. I am aware how Christians were thrown into the Lions during Roman times, how Saint Joan of Arc was burnt alive at the stake, how Christians in China are like...woah...outlawed.
NO one should be punished or oppressed for thier Faith. Everyone has the right to beleive whatever they want...i really hate debating religion for the most part because it in itself, in my opinion, is truly subjective and there's no winning when it comes to "whose religion or beleif is right or wrong"
However, despite your beleifs, you, myself, or anyone else do not have the right to impede on the freedoms and civil rights of other people.
Question I must ask you. I asked someone else *punker* but he declined to answer out of his anger, possible frustration, and possibly he just didnt know how to answer it....here it goes.
If with a simple command you could permanately ban gay marriage. would you do so ?
As far as Washington goes, try reading his farewell address. Sounds like he was in favor of religion to me. What he did believe is that religion should stay out of government, but that people actually need religion. (by the way in order to be a freemason you have to believe in a supreme being)
I understand, btu remember. Atheism was not acceptable at that time. You HAD to beleive in God and go by religion over all, whether you were a common person or even President. He had no choice but to include religion as a way to sway people.
I'm sure he did beleive in a Supreme Being, but he did not think that it should dominate the way you think. Watch History Channel and try to catch that free mason topic, they discuss both GW and Benjamin Franklyn. It's not an issue of right or wrong for me, its just very interesting, and i thnk its a mind opener in many ways.
By the way, thanks for at least considering my heaven as a state of being argument.
Personally I hope there is a Heaven, and you made a very good argument about it.
I consider myself either Agnostic or a "Universal" Christian....those are the Christians who beleive that every1 goes to Heaven, or atleast that most people do, and do not truly beleive in Hell for anyone.
Remember this: I grew up Christian, i am very familiar with the Bible. I am very familiar with Catholicism and Evangelicalism. For many a reason I have turned away from organized religion. I did not 100% abandoned my Faith in God or any supreme being, i ONLY call upon him or her when someone i love is in danger. Other than that, i personally have no need for a god. I don't feel I need a god to feel better about myself, I love myself enough, i don't need one to help me make any choices, i beleive in my right to make my own mistakes, successes and failures.......
The Bible and any religion in general is too limitted for me. I dislike limits. I feel the only limit should be DO NOT HARM ANOTHER PERSON....
to me harm comes in 3 forms: Murder, Torture, and Control...
those 3 aspects of behavior to me are TRUE sin......everything else we do is a mistake of human character.
And as far as faith goes, your right that blind faith can lead you down a bad course, but faith in something that's true will reward you in some way. Blind faith = consequences, true faith = rewards. Think of it like a map, if your map is bad, you end up somewhere you don't want to be or just get lost, if you're following a good map, you get to your destination. Faith is more than just belief, its got an element of trust and hope in it too.
Yes, but over all Faith is the beleif in something that you are not totally sure of. It's the beleif in God even though he may not be there, in this case. It's fine to have that. By all means stick with your Faith.
But you cannot call it "Faith" if you KNOW that God is real and that the Bible is 100% correct. If you TRULY KNOW this , then its not Faith. It's KNOWLEDGE.
That would be like saying "I have Faith that the Earth is round", or "I have Faith that 10 + 10 = 20"......If you ABSOLUTELY KNOW something to be true, you don't need Faith to back your knowledge up.
Take care man
Mother Teresa' s theology of suffering is reported to have produced a memorable anecdote. She once approached a dying cancer patient not with pain killers but with a theological platitude.
"You are suffering like Christ on the cross," Mother Teresa allegedly told the patient. "So Jesus must be kissing you."
To which the patient replied, "Then please tell him to stop kissing me."