Silver Surfer, Pheonix and Galactus vs All of Marvel and DC Universe

Seriously, your just repeating all that youve said before. Phoenix creating the abstracts isnt proof that Pheonix can also create time, sadness, love, etc. It only means that she has to create someone that embodies that concepts for that concept to actually exist, meaning she has to have help. It also means that she cant control this concepts by herself since she actually needs the abstracts to do it. I mean if she can create and control them all by herself then abstracts isnt needed.

Lucifer on the other hand, created all this concepts without any abstracts to embody it. He can do it by himself because thats what God has given him---> shaping and controlling all that is.

Phoenix holding a universe in her hand isnt much of an argument either. It only means that she can increase her height or exist outside the multiverse, both of which Lucifer has done before. And Lucifer also fast forwarded his whole Multiverse on a whim as well. He shapes Multiverses by pure will for pete's sake. Refer to Lucifer #16

Telepathic and Telekinetic Godhood? What the hell, Lucifer is WILL INCARNATE for crying out loud, do you seriously think those abilities has an effect on him?

Dont bring up being one with everything either, just because Phoenix is one with something and Lucifer isnt doesnt mean she's stronger than him. Coz if we were to go by your logic then Dream of the Endless is stronger than Lucifer because he's one with something(dreams). But thats not really the case, is it?

Second to TOAA? well Lucifer and Michael are second to The Presence.
Beyond all that is? well so is Lucifer and Michael.

And about the aspect thing, I didnt mean that I dont believe that Phoenix is aspect of TOAA, I just meant that bringing it up as another reason for Phoenix being above Lucifer is pointless because Lucifer has shown that he's above such aspects by ignoring one of them.

And no, I dont need to know Phoenix more because Ive already learned almost everything about her by reading the Phoenix Threads(isnt this posts of mine evident of that?). No offense GS, but by reading your response, it seems that your the one who has alot to learn about somebody, and in your case you have ALOT to learn about Lucifer and Michael.

The Infinity Gauntlet cant, nor can Lucifer or Michael. You know nothing of the true beyonders to say that B. All you know is that they are the power behind all the ccubes.

Obviously Presence, TOAA and the Great Beast can if what i hear is true. HOTU im not entirely sure about even though i own The End but if it truly is all of Gods power then yes obviously.

I missed ya B good to have u back lol

Originally posted by supremthor
crybaby.................why cant we all just getdrunk

You'd have to be part of the Phoenix cult for that to happen.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure supremthor already read your other posts. Not everybodies going to agree with you G.S. Even when you say it's a fact, it's still just your opinion.

Your not changing anybodies mind, nor will anyone change yours. By now, I can guess at most of what your saying in these new post without reading them.

😛

Originally posted by Beyonder
Presence...TOAA
Great Beast...HOTU
Michael...LT
Lucifer...True Beyonders

...IG

Not exact matches but close enough.

Hmm... all I can give you is my opinion on it since I dont think you'll change your mind on that. Anyway my opinion of it is:

TOAA=The Presence=TGEB

and

Michael=True Beyonders=Lucifer

ok well ill ask again what ppl think, on a few forums ago someone stated that The Phoenix Force went directly INTO The Source. this supposedly happened in a DC/Marvel crossover.

Now if The Presence and TOAA are not the same beings, TOAA must be The Source since the Phoenix Force went into it (also since The Source is above all of creation kinda like the meaning TOAA). The Source is God's Will in Creation/a part of Gods Power. also Syncho said Lucifer treated The Source like it was nothing then Lucifer could win all by himself.

Originally posted by Synchro
Hmm... all I can give you is my opinion on it since I dont think you'll change your mind on that. Anyway my opinion of it is:

TOAA=The Presence=TGEB

and

Michael=True Beyonders=Lucifer

That's why I said it wasn't exact. I was trying to pair them. But GB is equal to the Presence.

ah, ok.

Seriously, your just repeating all that youve said before. Phoenix creating the abstracts isnt proof that Pheonix can also create time, sadness, love, etc. It only means that she has to create someone that embodies that concepts for that concept to actually exist, meaning she has to have help. It also means that she cant control this concepts by herself since she actually needs the abstracts to do it. I mean if she can create and control them all by herself then abstracts isnt needed.

Phoenix holding a universe in her hand isnt much of an argument either. It only means that she can increase her height or exist outside the multiverse, both of which Lucifer has done before. And Lucifer also fast forwarded his whole Multiverse on a whim as well. He shapes Multiverses by pure will for pete's sake. Refer to Lucifer #16

Obviously Presence, TOAA and the Great Beast can if what i hear is true. HOTU im not entirely sure about even though i own The End but if it truly is all of Gods power then yes obviously.

Originally posted by kevdude
ok well ill ask again what ppl think, on a few forums ago someone stated that The Phoenix Force went directly INTO The Source. this supposedly happened in a DC/Marvel crossover.

Now if The Presence and TOAA are not the same beings, TOAA must be The Source since the Phoenix Force went into it (also since The Source is above all of creation kinda like the meaning TOAA). The Source is God's Will in Creation/a part of Gods Power. also Syncho said Lucifer treated The Source like it was nothing then Lucifer could win all by himself.

First off, it's a crossover.

Secondly, TOAA is the top being like the Presence is. The Source isn't the top being. Lucifer and Michael created the Multiverse and neither cares for the Source's powers. LT and all creation is below TOAA.

"Seriously, your just repeating all that youve said before. Phoenix creating the abstracts isnt proof that Pheonix can also create time, sadness, love, etc. It only means that she has to create someone that embodies that concepts for that concept to actually exist, meaning she has to have help. It also means that she cant control this concepts by herself since she actually needs the abstracts to do it. I mean if she can create and control them all by herself then abstracts isnt needed.

Lucifer on the other hand, created all this concepts without any abstracts to embody it. He can do it by himself because thats what God has given him---> shaping and controlling all that is. "

Thats ridiculous Synchro. What youre not understanding is without creation there is nothingness, just a void. The primal force of creation is responsible for all that is outside the white hot room. The white hot contains all that is. Universes are represented as minute spheres of energy. In the white hot room time/space and such concepts are nothing. Phoenix beyond them. All of creation includes all of the things you mention. What part of THE primal force of creation dont you get. It is its job to create everything and maintain the cycle of existence which it does by incarnating itself into our plane of existence to carry out its work.

"Lucifer on the other hand, created all this concepts without any abstracts to embody it. He can do it by himself because thats what God has given him---> shaping and controlling all that is. "

Phoenix creating abstracts doesnt mean it is incapable of doing the things they do themselves. That ssilly logic Synch. Thats like saying Galactus cant do all the things his heralds do. Phoenix has also shown the extent of its power. Its stated that the phoenix has telepathic and telekinetic godhood. It is a real world term Synch. Look it up theres nothing greater than that. How many times do i have to repeat myself. It is control over all that is down to the molecular level, all aspects of time, space, reality, matter EVERYTHING. Tell me again phoenix cant do the abstracts stuff herself.

"Phoenix holding a universe in her hand isnt much of an argument either. It only means that she can increase her height or exist outside the multiverse, both of which Lucifer has done before."

That is really silly synchro. No it doesnt mean that. Because if it did she would still be confined to that one reality and no amount of growing would change that. Jean was in the white hot room when she did it and all that is is represented in their. It is common knowledge that the WHR is beyond creation so please think about what youre saying. By your own admission your not the best marvel expert so before you say such preposterous things check out new xmen.

"Telepathic and Telekinetic Godhood? What the hell, Lucifer is WILL INCARNATE for crying out loud, do you seriously think those abilities has an effect on him?

Dont bring up being one with everything either, just because Phoenix is one with something and Lucifer isnt doesnt mean she's stronger than him. Coz if we were to go by your logic then Dream of the Endless is stronger than Lucifer because he's one with something(dreams). But thats not really the case, is it?"

Silly silly Synchro. Youre logic is flawed. Youve made apparent to me the depth of your understanding. Let me educate you now. Creating existence and being one with it as well puts you on a higher status than merely just making a multiverse. From what youre saying liken Lucifer to the Infinity G and Phoenix to HOTU. As stated in the comics The End more specifically. Thanos said while the IG gave him godlike power and control over all aspects of time, space, reality, mind and soul it was only external control. The HOTU was so much more because not only was he given dominion over those aspects but it also made him one with all of those aspects which gave him far greater power and control.

Just like phoenix creates existence and is one with it her consciousness permeates all it extends over matter, energy and all of those aspects down to a molecular level. Lucifer has nowhere near that control.

"Second to TOAA? well Lucifer and Michael are second to The Presence.
Beyond all that is? well so is Lucifer and Michael."

Exactly so theyre at least on the same level in their respective creations however phoenix, you cant just dismiss it as easily as you have been. However as you now know from the above phoenix is also so much more.

You know nothing of the true beyonders to put them as equal to Lucifer and the like. Thats really silly.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame This isn't necessarily true. That's like saying that the Presence couldn't create existence on his own so he had to have help, instead of assigning roles to different individuals. Just because someone is assigned a function by a being higher on the food chain doesn't mean the person making the assignment can't do the job themself. It's called delegation.

Read the Lucifer Comic Book, The Presence didnt need help in creating his Multiverse, heck he didnt even created it at ALL. He let Lucifer and Michael created it because as was stated in Lucifer #38, that and all the things Lucifer and Michael has gone through was a way for him to decide who will succeed him.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame You're right-the appearance of holding a universe in one's hand doesn't mean much. However a third party saying "I would just let that universe die" is a totally different matter.

It doesnt mean much if were talking about that as a reason for Phoenix being above Lucifer and Michael. As I said, Lucifer has been shown to be doing it before.

What is the sources role in Dc?

gotta go bed i'll continue this 2morrow.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats ridiculous Synchro. What youre not understanding is without creation there is nothingness, just a void. The primal force of creation is responsible for all that is outside the white hot room. The white hot contains all that is. Universes are represented as minute spheres of energy. In the white hot room time/space and such concepts are nothing. Phoenix beyond them. All of creation includes all of the things you mention. What part of THE primal force of creation dont you get. It is its job to create everything and maintain the cycle of existence which it does by incarnating itself into our plane of existence to carry out its work.

Phoenix creating abstracts doesnt mean it is incapable of doing the things they do themselves. That ssilly logic Synch. Thats like saying Galactus cant do all the things his heralds do. Phoenix has also shown the extent of its power. Its stated that the phoenix has telepathic and telekinetic godhood. It is a real world term Synch. Look it up theres nothing greater than that. How many times do i have to repeat myself. It is control over all that is down to the molecular level, all aspects of time, space, reality, matter EVERYTHING. Tell me again phoenix cant do the abstracts stuff herself.

Please. Youve just shown me evidence that Phoenix creates all LIFE not ALL THAT IS. Eternity only said that the Phoenix creates life. He never said that she creates concepts all by herself as well. Give me evidence that Phoenix created ALL THAT IS. Bear in mind that creating all life is different than creating concepts.

Dont forget about Phoenix creating Time as well, show me evidence wher she can also create time out of nowhere, because as far as Im concerned, there isnt an abstract who embodies time.

Primal Force of Creation? LOL!!!! silly silly GS you have much to learn about the way of Lucifer and Michael. Look up on Lucifer #11, Sandalphon described Michael as the "word of fire that builds and breaks" he described Michael as the one who builds and the one who destroys---> meaning Michael alone is also desribed as THE Primal Force of Creation, Sandalphon didnt say anything about Lucifer. But does that mean Michael can really do anything? NO. So what makes you think that Phoenix being Primal force of creation can do anything?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm That is really silly synchro. No it doesnt mean that. Because if it did she would still be confined to that one reality and no amount of growing would change that. Jean was in the white hot room when she did it and all that is is represented in their. It is common knowledge that the WHR is beyond creation so please think about what youre saying. By your own admission your not the best marvel expert so before you say such preposterous things check out new xmen.

Well Lucifer has done the same thing GS in Lucifer #15. Sorry but it still doesnt say much.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Silly silly Synchro. Youre logic is flawed. Youve made apparent to me the depth of your understanding. Let me educate you now. Creating existence and being one with it as well puts you on a higher status than merely just making a multiverse. From what youre saying liken Lucifer to the Infinity G and Phoenix to HOTU. As stated in the comics The End more specifically. Thanos said while the IG gave him godlike power and control over all aspects of time, space, reality, mind and soul it was only external control. The HOTU was so much more because not only was he given dominion over those aspects but it also made him one with all of those aspects which gave him far greater power and control.

Ah, but Lucifer not embodying anything only works when he's in the DC Multiverse. When he's in his own Multiverse he is one with everything there is. Here's what was said while he was shaping his Multiverse:

"And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns"

He also said that he's the "alpha and the omega, the beginning and end"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Just like phoenix creates existence and is one with it her consciousness permeates all it extends over matter, energy and all of those aspects down to a molecular level. Lucifer has nowhere near that control.

Lucifer has nowhere near that control? LOL!!!! again more things to educate GS. How do you think Lucifer shaped the Multiverse? what do you think Michael brough to the table? MATTER. Thats what Michael brought to the table and Lucifer by shaping that matter into a Multiverse by PURE WILL showed that he has GREATER CONTROL over matter than Phoenix, and you said that Phoenix has control over all on the molecular level? LOL!!! ONLY to the molecular level? Sorry but Lucifer has control over everything down to the sub-atomic level.

And no. Phoenix doesnt have control over DIVINE Energy.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm Exactly so theyre at least on the same level in their respective creations however phoenix, you cant just dismiss it as easily as you have been. However as you now know from the above phoenix is also so much more.

Im sorry but who is dismissing who here? so your saying that Im dismissing Phoenix and your not dismissing Lucifer and Michael? Do you want me to have quotes in here.

And no sorry, you have not proven it yet GS. Sorry, Lucifer and Michael are above Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You know nothing of the true beyonders to put them as equal to Lucifer and the like. Thats really silly.

And you know nothing of Michael and Lucifer to put them below the True Beyonders. Thats really silly

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What is the sources role in Dc?

The Source is an aspect of the Presence and its the one who got ignored by Lucifer.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, I thought you would have picked up on the fact that I'm black by now, lol. Seems a much higher percentage of posters here are black than I'd have ever thought beforehand. Sociologically speaking, there are a lot of interesting conclusions to make from our assumptions before discovering the truth.

Those threads aren't so bad,because in real life, brutha's get em all, and everyone knows that.

Damn you peoople, multiquote your arguments, CTRL+V to copy the (originally posted by xxxx), CTRL _C to paste it.and place it right before your statement(no spaces), then copy and paste [/B][QUOTE] right at the end of the statement, 1 space.

The C-Master has spoken. 😮‍💨

"Please. Youve just shown me evidence that Phoenix creates all LIFE not ALL THAT IS. Eternity only said that the Phoenix creates life. He never said that she creates concepts all by herself as well. Give me evidence that Phoenix created ALL THAT IS. Bear in mind that creating all life is different than creating concepts."

Here is the first conversation between Jean and her Phoenix self in classic Xmen:

"All that is...I am.

Nothing that is, is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life

All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.

Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself."

This is the union of the primal force of creation and Jean. Notice Jeans phoenix self again clarifies that it is everything, not just life, but the stars and planets all matter. Jean states this again when in hospital. She says everything is a part of her the stars, the planets etc Phoenix also says that it has made everything (as is later supported more recently in New Xmen and F4) Everythng in existence is created by Phoenix it is THE primal force of creation with the job of making and maintaining creation. Again jeans role as a sephiroth is again supported here where it says 'the ultimate force at last given means to express itself" with sephiroth (as you all should know by now) a means for god to carry out his work within our plane of existence via an avatar, a vessel for his essence.

"Dont forget about Phoenix creating Time as well, show me evidence wher she can also create time out of nowhere, because as far as Im concerned, there isnt an abstract who embodies time."

You really dont know anything about Marvel do you? There is an abstract that embodies time and its name is Kronos and he is another creation of phoenix. "All that is" is touched by phoenix.

"Force of Creation? LOL!!!! silly silly GS you have much to learn about the way of Lucifer and Michael. Look up on Lucifer #11, Sandalphon described Michael as the "word of fire that builds and breaks" he described Michael as the one who builds and the one who destroys---> meaning Michael alone is also desribed as THE Primal Force of Creation"

Im disappointed Synch. I expect better from you. Thats a massive assumption. Michael isnt once called the primal force of creation youre just assuming that thats one of his roles because he's referred to as one "that builds and breaks?" I have to assume nothing. Phoenix is actually stated to be the THE primal force of creation that has made everything and is one with everything. Phoenix is accredited for the creation of the abstracts. Eternity, Infinity, Order and Chaos, Love and Hate, Death, Kronos just to name a few. Many cosmics build and destroy what you've described far from puts him in the position of the primal force of creation in DC. Meaning michael is described as the primal force of creation. Psssh 🙄

"Well Lucifer has done the same thing GS in Lucifer #15. Sorry but it still doesnt say much. "

Well Phoenix surveys all of existence from the white hot room. All realities and timelines are hers to survey from there. All universes are insignificant spheres of energy from her perspective. Actually surveying THE multiverse and being responsible for its creation is also more impressive than making a little side one and having power over that. Who's to say how the one Lucifer made compares to the actual multiverse proper. Just like Franklin Richards can make universes under his own power they are still just pocket universes which pale in comparison to the proper one. Until you can show proof that this multiverse Lucifer created is just as grand and to the same scale of the proper multiverse then his feat pales in comparison to phoenixes im afraid. I believe Lucifer and Michael together are required to make a multiverse. That is yet another example of how phoenix is beyond them.

"Ah, but Lucifer not embodying anything only works when he's in the DC Multiverse. When he's in his own Multiverse he is one with everything there is. Here's what was said while he was shaping his Multiverse:

"And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns"

Do you wanna explain to me how that quote proves that Lucifer is one with everything in his multiverse, how his essence courses through it like phoenixes does in the actual multiverse proper? I really cant see it. I doubt it actually does Synch. I put it down to misinterpretation or just wishful thinking.

Im sorry but its still not as good as being responsible for the proper multiverse.

"Lucifer has nowhere near that control? LOL!!!! again more things to educate GS. How do you think Lucifer shaped the Multiverse? what do you think Michael brough to the table? MATTER. Thats what Michael brought to the table and Lucifer by shaping that matter into a Multiverse by PURE WILL showed that he has GREATER CONTROL over matter than Phoenix, and you said that Phoenix has control over all on the molecular level? LOL!!! ONLY to the molecular level? Sorry but Lucifer has control over everything down to the sub-atomic level. "

There you go again. Your own evidence is making it quite clear that individually neither Michael or Lucifer is a match for the primal force of creation that is phoenix. They cant make multiverses by themselves, its a joint effort. Impressive, but no comparison, simple as. Phoenix provides the matter, phoenix alone shapes it into the planets and constellations, phoenix creates the abstracts, phoenix is one with its creation, its essence permeates all that is. End of.

Down to a sub atomic level? Wouldnt mind some issue numbers and quotes Synch. Lucifer still didnt provide the matter himself so its still not as impressive im afraid. Jointly they could probably defeat phoenix but not by their lonesomes. Im afraid. Let the inner fanboy go Synch its quite obvious that phoenix is beyond either of them individually.

"And no. Phoenix doesnt have control over DIVINE Energy."

Well as you know its heavily suggested by name, parallels , action and locales that the primal force of creation is an aspect of God. Its too explicit and abundant to be ignored. Please dont do it for the sake of winning an argument because that is so low. So back on topic it cant be ruled out. Who knows Synchy boy who knows...

"Im sorry but who is dismissing who here? so your saying that Im dismissing Phoenix and your not dismissing Lucifer and Michael? Do you want me to have quotes in here.

And no sorry, you have not proven it yet GS. Sorry, Lucifer and Michael are above Phoenix."

Your quotes havent done you any good thus far. If anything they've had a negative effect on your case. Dont worry about it id save yourself the effort. Theyre greater than Phoenix are they? Now who's dismissing who? None of them have done anything greater than phoenix, it takes a joint effort from them to create a multiverse and phoenix does it singlehandedly yet youre still going to turn around and say that individually theyre greater? 🙄

We'll probably never know for certain but from the evidence we've both presented phoenix looks beyond them individually without a doubt. Could it beat them together? Doubt that very much from what youre saying but on their own they reall arent as impressive as the primal force of creation. You did well mate. 😄

GO GALACTIC, GO GALACTIC!!! WHOO-HOO!!! 💃

Jesus man, use the multiquote function.