Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Here is the first conversation between Jean and her Phoenix self in classic Xmen:"All that is...I am.
Nothing that is, is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life
All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.
Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself."
This is the union of the primal force of creation and Jean. Notice Jeans phoenix self again clarifies that it is everything, not just life, but the stars and planets all matter. Jean states this again when in hospital. She says everything is a part of her the stars, the planets etc Phoenix also says that it has made everything (as is later supported more recently in New Xmen and F4) Everythng in existence is created by Phoenix it is THE primal force of creation with the job of making and maintaining creation. Again jeans role as a sephiroth is again supported here where it says 'the ultimate force at last given means to express itself" with sephiroth (as you all should know by now) a means for god to carry out his work within our plane of existence via an avatar, a vessel for his essence.
Thats it. Ive come to the conclusion that your understanding of things is as blurry as ever.
What the hell does "All that is... I am" support about her CREATING everything? What the hell does stars, planets, etc. being one with her means? It just means that she is ONE with everything. Just like Spectre say that he's "all of the madness of God". He's one with the wrath of God but it doesnt mean that he created the Wrath of God, does he?
Nice Try matey.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm You really dont know anything about Marvel do you? There is an abstract that embodies time and its name is Kronos and he is another creation of phoenix. "All that is" is touched by phoenix.
Ok Ill admit that Im wrong here. But its ok, it didnt do any damage to my arguments considering that you havent proven yet that Phoenix can create concepts without the abstracts.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im disappointed Synch. I expect better from you. Thats a massive assumption. Michael isnt once called the primal force of creation youre just assuming that thats one of his roles because he's referred to as one "that builds and breaks?" I have to assume nothing. Phoenix is actually stated to be the THE primal force of creation that has made everything and is one with everything. Phoenix is accredited for the creation of the abstracts. Eternity, Infinity, Order and Chaos, Love and Hate, Death, Kronos just to name a few. Many cosmics build and destroy what you've described far from puts him in the position of the primal force of creation in DC. Meaning michael is described as the primal force of creation. Psssh 🙄
lol!!! I appreciate you expecting more from me, I really do. But frankly, I feel the same way about you... if not more. So your now accusing me of doing a massive assumption? or you just cant counter it? Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks is Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks. There's no way around it GS. Dont argue with the facts. Base on that statement, he is THE Primal Force of Creation. Or are you saying now that you have a new definition of "Primal Force of Creatin"?
Phoenix being one with everything? Big Deal. The DC Multiverse is The Presence's turf so naturally he should be the one who is one with everything there, not Michael. But hey dont worry my young apprentice because Michael is equal to Lucifer and Lucifer has shown that he is one with everything in his own Multiverse. So what would that mean if Michael has his own Multiverse? Yes you got it GS, your learning well.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Who's to say how the one Lucifer made compares to the actual multiverse proper. Just like Franklin Richards can make universes under his own power they are still just pocket universes which pale in comparison to the proper one. Until you can show proof that this multiverse Lucifer created is just as grand and to the same scale of the proper multiverse then his feat pales in comparison to phoenixes im afraid. I believe Lucifer and Michael together are required to make a multiverse. That is yet another example of how phoenix is beyond them.
Hahaha!!!! A bit of a desperation there eh, GS? Now your bringing up the validity of Lucifer's Multiverse as a proper Multiverse? Just to stay in the game, huh? What a shame. But anyway, Im glad to help someone who is in need of learning, so its ok GS.
So you want proof if Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand as a proper Multiverse, huh? Well, listen carefully. In Lucifer #20 The Presence sent Michael to Lucifer to tell him that The Presence decreed that there should only be ONE Multiverse. That alone is enough to say that Lucifer's Multiverse is as much of a proper and as much of a threat to the Presence's Multiverse(DC).
But knowing you, it wont be enough, so here's another one. In the same issue, after learning of the order of God, Lucifer became very angry and instead of following Presence's orders, he instead created an "infinity" of gates which was folded through time and space. So theres now gates in every world, every realm, and every universe in Lucy's Multiverse AND The Presence's Multiverse. By doing that, he invited EVERYONE in the Presence's Multiverse to come and stay in his Multiverse if they dont like The Presence's rule.
So what does that tell you? To be abe to to invite EVERYONE in a Multiverse to his own Multiverse only means that Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand, proper and large as DC Multiverse which is a proper Multiverse. Unless your trying to say that DC is not a proper multiverse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Do you wanna explain to me how that quote proves that Lucifer is one with everything in his multiverse, how his essence courses through it like phoenixes does in the actual multiverse proper? I really cant see it. I doubt it actually does Synch. I put it down to misinterpretation or just wishful thinking.
Your right, you dont get it. *sigh* oh well.
Enact: To act (something) out, as on large. For ex. "He enacted the part of the prince in a play"
So in Lucifer, by saying that "enacting his name, weaving the luminous cloud-stuff of a new cosmos into suns ", means that he has become one with everything by putting his essence(name) into the "luminous cloud-stuff"(matter) with which it formed hes cosmos. With that, Lucifer is effectively ACTING out(Enacting) as the sun, starts, planets, everything.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im sorry but its still not as good as being responsible for the proper multiverse.
Look above.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm There you go again. Your own evidence is making it quite clear that individually neither Michael or Lucifer is a match for the primal force of creation that is phoenix. They cant make multiverses by themselves, its a joint effort. Impressive, but no comparison, simple as. Phoenix provides the matter, phoenix alone shapes it into the planets and constellations, phoenix creates the abstracts, phoenix is one with its creation, its essence permeates all that is. End of.
And there you go again as well. Making wild assumptions without knowing what your talking about. Im afraid thats not the case in every Multiverse in the Omniverse. Some Multiverse are made in a different way than other Multiverse. The Preacher-verse for example, was made by just raw divine energy by the God there. That God didnt need to shape anything by his will. He first made matter(by raw energy ofcourse) and made that matter into suns, stars, etc. by dishing out his energy on it which instantly created everything.
Sorry, but its not a fact that Phoenix has done the same way Lucifer did. Assumptions, Assumptions, lalala.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Down to a sub atomic level? Wouldnt mind some issue numbers and quotes Synch. Lucifer still didnt provide the matter himself so its still not as impressive im afraid. Jointly they could probably defeat phoenix but not by their lonesomes. Im afraid. Let the inner fanboy go Synch its quite obvious that phoenix is beyond either of them individually.
Sure GS, I wouldnt mind giving you some evidence of it. In Lucifer #16, when he was done "testing" his own version of Adam and Eve, he reduced them into nothingness by just a feint touch, yes you heard me he literally reduced them into NOTHINGNESS, its as if nothing really happened.
Inner Fanboy? thats ok. But please dont deny that you love Phoenix so much that if she tells you to jump, you'll exactly do the same thing.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Well as you know its heavily suggested by name, parallels , action and locales that the primal force of creation is an aspect of God. Its too explicit and abundant to be ignored. Please dont do it for the sake of winning an argument because that is so low. So back on topic it cant be ruled out. Who knows Synchy boy who knows...
And as you should already know, its pointless to bring up an aspect of God when your going up against the FAVORITE and PERFECT creation of God. And yes GS, Phoenix doesnt have control over divine energy, because if thats the case then she should also have control of God's energy himself. Now matter how low it is , its still relevant. I guess it only shows that you cant counter it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Your quotes havent done you any good thus far. If anything they've had a negative effect on your case. Dont worry about it id save yourself the effort. Theyre greater than Phoenix are they? Now who's dismissing who? None of them have done anything greater than phoenix, it takes a joint effort from them to create a multiverse and phoenix does it singlehandedly yet youre still going to turn around and say that individually theyre greater? 🙄
*sigh*, poor poor GS, our argument has affected even his ability to read. Quote me in that post of mine of me denying about dismissing Phoenix. I AM dismissing Phoenix. You even want me to shout it?
In that post I was merely trying to say that you make it seem like I was the ONLY one dismissing someone here, when your past quotes proves the same to you casually dismissing Lucifer and Michael
Originally posted by GalacticStorm We'll probably never know for certain but from the evidence we've both presented phoenix looks beyond them individually without a doubt. Could it beat them together? Doubt that very much from what youre saying but on their own they reall arent as impressive as the primal force of creation. You did well mate. 😄
I guess its ok to dream GS, its ok. 😄
""""""Thats it. Ive come to the conclusion that your understanding of things is as blurry as ever.
What the hell does "All that is... I am" support about her CREATING everything? What the hell does stars, planets, etc. being one with her means? It just means that she is ONE with everything. Just like Spectre say that he's "all of the madness of God". He's one with the wrath of God but it doesnt mean that he created the Wrath of God, does he?
Nice Try matey."""""""
My understanding is blurry? Silly boy. "All that is I am" Means that all of creation is a part of her. That much is obvious to all but a dunce. Creation is everything that is overseen from the white hot room. That is the multiverse, time/space, reality, matter energy etc. That is creation. Phoenix is the primal force of creation which has been accredited in Uncanny Xmen, Classic Xmen F4 and various other X-titles as the force responsible for creation. This has been the case from its conception till the prsent. Read Marvel and educate yourself.
""""Nice Try matey"""""
Couldnt hav said it better myself. 😄
"""""Ok Ill admit that Im wrong here. But its ok, it didnt do any damage to my arguments considering that you havent proven yet that Phoenix can create concepts without the abstracts.""""""
Thats ridiculous Synch. How the mighty have fallen. You've resorted to nitpicking in order to win an argument even though you know exactly what im saying because its quite obvious to those of a neutral mindset. The abstracts embody those concepts. The abstracts are those concepts made corporeal. Phoenix created those abstracts and Phoenix is one with those abstracts. Having abstracts is a marvel thing, just deal with it Synch. Really. 🙄 Its like saying Galactus cant do the things SS does.
"""""
Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks is Michael being described as the one who builds and breaks. There's no way around it GS. Dont argue with the facts. Base on that statement, he is THE Primal Force of Creation."""""""
You really cant be serious? Someone please come on here and make apparent to this boy how ridiculous his statement is. Being called the one who builds and breaks does not make you the primal force of creation. Not once is Michael called the primal of creation. There are many beings in marvel who build and break. The celestials for example are creators. If they deem there creations unworthy then they destroy them. That term could be applied to them does that make them the primal force of creation? Dont be silly. Oh how desperate youve become.
For goodness sake you could apply that term to Franklin Richards with his Lego set, but does that make him the primal force of creation. Laughable simply laughable. Oh how you've made me chuckle. 😆
""""""Phoenix being one with everything? Big Deal. The DC Multiverse is The Presence's turf so naturally he should be the one who is one with everything there, not Michael. But hey dont worry my young apprentice because Michael is equal to Lucifer and Lucifer has shown that he is one with everything in his own Multiverse. So what would that mean if Michael has his own Multiverse? Yes you got it GS, your learning well.""""""
Exactly my point. Neither Lucifer or Michael are one with the multiverse proper in DC the prsence is. In Marvel its phoenix who is also funnily enough suggested to be an aspect of TOAA. Im sorry Synchy but you have yet to tell me where in that quote it says anything about Lucifer being one with his multiverse, where does it say his consciousness permeates it and all of creation flows through him? Exactly it doesnt. He's just not on that level and you have yet to prove that he is because you cannot.
""""""""So you want proof if Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand as a proper Multiverse, huh? Well, listen carefully. In Lucifer #20 The Presence sent Michael to Lucifer to tell him that The Presence decreed that there should only be ONE Multiverse. That alone is enough to say that Lucifer's Multiverse is as much of a proper and as much of a threat to the Presence's Multiverse(DC).
But knowing you, it wont be enough, so here's another one. In the same issue, after learning of the order of God, Lucifer became very angry and instead of following Presence's orders, he instead created an "infinity" of gates which was folded through time and space. So theres now gates in every world, every realm, and every universe in Lucy's Multiverse AND The Presence's Multiverse. By doing that, he invited EVERYONE in the Presence's Multiverse to come and stay in his Multiverse if they dont like The Presence's rule.
So what does that tell you? To be abe to to invite EVERYONE in a Multiverse to his own Multiverse only means that Lucifer's Multiverse is just as grand, proper and large as DC Multiverse which is a proper Multiverse. Unless your trying to say that DC is not a proper multiverse. """""""""""
Prsence saying that there should only be one multiverse does not mean that Lucifers is as important or on the same scale as the proper one.
Oh dear Synch you typed all of that and it still proved not a thing. The U.S could invite every man, woman or child to leav etheir countries to live their but does that mean the U.S is as grand or important as the rest of the planets continents. No sirree. Good try tho. Lets say i was going to entertain your idea as flawed as the concepts behind it are, Lucifer is still not one with his multiverse his essence doesnt permeate it. He has mere external power over it unlike Phoenix with marvels multiverse. Its like comparing the control of the Infinity Gauntlet to the control and power offered by the HOTU. Admirable attempt.
Oh i forgot. Was i meant to be impressed by the infinity gates feat as well? Pssh. How do you think all the universese and realities in Marvel are connected together? Yep you got it sonny!!!
"""""""Enact: To act (something) out, as on large. For ex. "He enacted the part of the prince in a play"
So in Lucifer, by saying that "enacting his name, weaving the luminous cloud-stuff of a new cosmos into suns ", means that he has become one with everything by putting his essence(name) into the "luminous cloud-stuff"(matter) with which it formed hes cosmos. With that, Lucifer is effectively ACTING out(Enacting) as the sun, starts, planets, everything.""""""""
Listen up synchy my boy. You could learn a lot from me. Did you know that another definition for Lucifer is actually morning star which i believe is his actual surname in the comics anyway. By enacting his name in the context of that statement he is merely creating suns, not flowing his essence through his creation. He was just creating the definition of his name which is morning star. In the quote was he not making a star out of cloud stuff? Hmmmmm. Again i ask what evidence do you have that Lucys essence permeates the multiverse he JOINTLY created with Michael.
""""""And there you go again as well. Making wild assumptions without knowing what your talking about. Im afraid thats not the case in every Multiverse in the Omniverse. Some Multiverse are made in a different way than other Multiverse. The Preacher-verse for example, was made by just raw divine energy by the God there. That God didnt need to shape anything by his will. He first made matter(by raw energy ofcourse) and made that matter into suns, stars, etc. by dishing out his energy on it which instantly created everything.
Sorry, but its not a fact that Phoenix has done the same way Lucifer did.""""""""
Im sorry but what does this have to do with anything? Its changed nothing so it was a waste of your effort and time. How unfortunate. 🙁
At the end of the day Lucifers greatest feat is creating a multiverse out of matter supplied to him by Michael. So it was a JOINT effort. You with me so far Synchy?
Phoenix made creation singlehandedly and is one with it all as well. Phoenix isso obviously beyond them individually. Its so apparent to anyone of a neutral mindset.
Also creating people and reducing them to nothing is a minor feat. If you knew anything about marvel you'd know that celestials created the eternals for goodness sake and they pale in comparison to phoenix.
I know its hard being a fan of something only to find out theyre not as great as initially thought, but im sure you'll get over it. Good luck with that mate.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm My understanding is blurry? Silly boy. "All that is I am" Means that all of creation is a part of her. That much is obvious to all but a dunce. Creation is everything that is overseen from the white hot room. That is the multiverse, time/space, reality, matter energy etc. That is creation. Phoenix is the primal force of creation which has been accredited in Uncanny Xmen, Classic Xmen F4 and various other X-titles as the force responsible for creation. This has been the case from its conception till the prsent. Read Marvel and educate yourself.Couldnt hav said it better myself. 😄
Thats ridiculous Synch. How the mighty have fallen. You've resorted to nitpicking in order to win an argument even though you know exactly what im saying because its quite obvious to those of a neutral mindset. The abstracts embody those concepts. The abstracts are those concepts made corporeal. Phoenix created those abstracts and Phoenix is one with those abstracts. Having abstracts is a marvel thing, just deal with it Synch. Really. 🙄 Its like saying Galactus cant do the things SS does.
*ding dong* I smell a contradiction coming out of the arse. Sorry GS, its not good enough. Your just repeating yourself over and over and over again. None of the things in your post have actually provided proof that Phoenix being one with everything means that she also created it. You wanna have another example my good friend? How about Eternity, he's called the living embodiment of a universe, right? so that means that he's one with all that is in a single universe, right? And if we use your logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then we can say that Eternity being one everything that is in a universe means that he CREATED that universe.
But the problem is, the great GS has said that Phoenix created everything in existence, not Eternity. But if we use his other logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then that means Eternity WAS the one who create a universe, not Phoenix.
Oh! the contradiction 😕
Originally posted by GalacticStorm You really cant be serious? Someone please come on here and make apparent to this boy how ridiculous his statement is. Being called the one who builds and breaks does not make you the primal force of creation. Not once is Michael called the primal of creation. There are many beings in marvel who build and break. The celestials for example are creators. If they deem there creations unworthy then they destroy them. That term could be applied to them does that make them the primal force of creation? Dont be silly. Oh how desperate youve become.For goodness sake you could apply that term to Franklin Richards with his Lego set, but does that make him the primal force of creation. Laughable simply laughable. Oh how you've made me chuckle. 😆
In denial. That is made apparent by your post here GS. Your understanding of things are really blurry, it is GS. Sandalphon EXPLICITLY stated that Michael is the one who builds and breaks. Meaning he is the one who builds and breaks EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE-----> the WHOLE Multiverse. What now? your actually saying that the term "Primal Force of Creation" suddenly has a different meaning?
What a pitiful attempt to bring in Franklin Richards and the Celestials. They created things, sure. But is it everything? No. So how the hell does that label them Primal Force of Creation?
And seriously just because Michael wasnt called "Primal Force of Creation" means that he really is not? What are you narrow minded or something?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Exactly my point. Neither Lucifer or Michael are one with the multiverse proper in DC the prsence is. In Marvel its phoenix who is also funnily enough suggested to be an aspect of TOAA. Im sorry Synchy but you have yet to tell me where in that quote it says anything about Lucifer being one with his multiverse, where does it say his consciousness permeates it and all of creation flows through him? Exactly it doesnt. He's just not on that level and you have yet to prove that he is because you cannot.
Lol!!!! you make it seem like Phoenix actually forced TOAA to make her one with everything. Seriously GS, the only reason why Michael and Lucifer wasnt made one with everything in DC is because The Presence decided to not make them. Simple as. I have full confidence that if TOAA wanted to be one with everything, then he'd remove Phoenix's function and make himself one with everything. Again simple as.
It just comes down to their respective God's decisions GS. The Presence decided to not make the brothers one with eveything and TOAA decided to make Phoenix one with everything, thats it. Both can overturn that decision on a whim. It doesnt degrade Lucifer and Michael's power as Lucifer has shown that he's one with everything in his multiverse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Prsence saying that there should only be one multiverse does not mean that Lucifers is as important or on the same scale as the proper one.
I wonder why you didnt explain why?
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Oh dear Synch you typed all of that and it still proved not a thing. The U.S could invite every man, woman or child to leav etheir countries to live their but does that mean the U.S is as grand or important as the rest of the planets continents. No sirree. Good try tho. Lets say i was going to entertain your idea as flawed as the concepts behind it are, Lucifer is still not one with his multiverse his essence doesnt permeate it. He has mere external power over it unlike Phoenix with marvels multiverse. Its like comparing the control of the Infinity Gauntlet to the control and power offered by the HOTU. Admirable attempt.
The US not a proper country? oh why oh why GS. I certainly wouldnt miss you explain it coz frankly the US is a proper country. Thats a given, they are one of the most powerful countries, if not the most powerful, in the world, the most technoloy driven and one of the most wealthiest countries, if not the wealthiest, in the world.
And yet you sit there and say theyre not a proper country, theyre not a grand country. uh huh. 🙄
Sorry but its a fact that Lucifer's Multiverse is as grand as any Multiverse, he created planets, stars, suns, life in every realm and in every universe. Lucifer's confident enough to accomodate every living being in a proper Multiverse into his own Multiverse. You couldnt get any more proper and grand than that.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Oh i forgot. Was i meant to be impressed by the infinity gates feat as well? Pssh. How do you think all the universese and realities in Marvel are connected together? Yep you got it sonny!!!
Aww, thats it? Is that the only thing Phoenix can do? Pitiful.
Linking 2 Multiverses by creating gates in EVERY Universe and reality in BOTH Multiverses>>>>>Linking Universes and realities in 1 Multiverse by creating gates in that single Multiverse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Listen up synchy my boy. You could learn a lot from me. Did you know that another definition for Lucifer is actually morning star which i believe is his actual surname in the comics anyway. By enacting his name in the context of that statement he is merely creating suns, not flowing his essence through his creation. He was just creating the definition of his name which is morning star. In the quote was he not making a star out of cloud stuff? Hmmmmm. Again i ask what evidence do you have that Lucys essence permeates the multiverse he JOINTLY created with Michael.
The name Morningstar has nothing to do with him creating just stars, It has everything to do with everything in existence. Seriously what you said doesnt make sense at all. What is the purpose of enacting his name if it wont flow through something? What is the purpose of enacting his name if its just to create suns and stars? Because when Michael wrote The Presence's name in every atom of existence to keep the DC Multi from collapsing, it was said as "Enacting Yahweh's name, which in turn flowed through every vein, every atom of existence.
And just think about this for a minute. What good is a Multiverse/Universe if no ones holding it together, if there's no essence coursing through it to keep it alive? It will surely collapse, GS. It will collapse. So by basing through that COMMON knowledge, then Lucifer should have his essence running though it, making him one with it to keep his Multiverse from collapsing.
I mean look at the time when he created the gates. We can clearly see that while creating it, his form wasnt of human form anymore. His form was now made of blocks of bubble-like thingy. And we can clearly see that the bubbles where separating from him while creating his gates. The only thing it says, as far as Im concerned, is the bubbles are his essence which was placed on the gates to also become one with it.
Another evidence is him saying that he's "The Alpha and The Omega". What does that tell you? And no it doesnt just mean that he's the beginning and the end. Look up the meaning of it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Im sorry but what does this have to do with anything? Its changed nothing so it was a waste of your effort and time. How unfortunate. 🙁
Oh please GS, stop lying to yourself. You and I completely know that its relevant to what were talking about. You said that Phoenix shapes matter with her will. To which I replied that not every Multiverse/Universe is created that way. I gave the example of the creation of the Preacher-verse. To which I ended it by saying that it isnt a fact that Phoenix can do what Lucifer did(shaping everything with pure will) due to the example I gave above.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm At the end of the day Lucifers greatest feat is creating a multiverse out of matter supplied to him by Michael. So it was a JOINT effort. You with me so far Synchy?Phoenix made creation singlehandedly and is one with it all as well. Phoenix isso obviously beyond them individually. Its so apparent to anyone of a neutral mindset.
No, no, no my good friend. At the end of the day Lucifer's and Michael's greatest feat cancels out Phoenix's greatest feat which was creating all LIFE by herself. Michael and Lucifer creates entire concepts such as Time, Love, Happiness, etc. all by themselves
So we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, Oh I dont know, Holding all of reality? A feat Phoenix achieved AND A feat Michael(by writing Yahweh's name in every atom of existence in DC with his demiurgic energy) and Lucifer achieved(by the fact that his Multiverse isnt showing signs of collapsing right now)
So again, we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, I dont know again, maybe placing gates in all of the universes and realities in the Multiverse? And this is where we stop. Because Lucifer has shown the greater feat. Ive already explained it above.
So all in all, GS. Lucifer and Michael edges Phoenix out individually, sorry matey.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Also creating people and reducing them to nothing is a minor feat. If you knew anything about marvel you'd know that celestials created the eternals for goodness sake and they pale in comparison to phoenix.I know its hard being a fan of something only to find out theyre not as great as initially thought, but im sure you'll get over it. Good luck with that mate.
Still GS, the fact that Lucifer reduced them into nothingness MORE than proves my point of him having control down to the sub-atomic level. And you said that Phoenix has control down only to the Molecular-level so going by that, Phoenix wont be able to do it on a level that Lucifer has done.
And trust me GS, I still have complete faith over Lucifer and Michael being as great as I think they are. Youve done nothing to disprove it Im afraid. Maybe your the one who should start thinking about how really great Phoenix is. 🙄
""""""""""""""""*ding dong* I smell a contradiction coming out of the arse. Sorry GS, its not good enough. Your just repeating yourself over and over and over again. None of the things in your post have actually provided proof that Phoenix being one with everything means that she also created it. You wanna have another example my good friend? How about Eternity, he's called the living embodiment of a universe, right? so that means that he's one with all that is in a single universe, right? And if we use your logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then we can say that Eternity being one everything that is in a universe means that he CREATED that universe.
But the problem is, the great GS has said that Phoenix created everything in existence, not Eternity. But if we use his other logic of "being one with everything, means it created it", then that means Eternity WAS the one who create a universe, not Phoenix.
Oh! the contradiction """"""""""""""
It seems dear Synchy that my posts are a bit over your head, because ive dealt with your query about phoenix actually creating existence not only on previous posts in previous threads but also on this thread to. I understand your ignorance you have been overloaded with information after all, which is always a good thing wouldnt you agree? I so wish i could sat the same about your posts. 🙁 oh well.
Synchy Synchy there is no contradiction. Its all imagined. Youre very confused, so pay attention and let the GalacticStorm teach the masses:
Synchro lets sort this out once and for all. Youre not debating that Phoenix is one with all of creation are you? No? Good boy. Well I've already told you that in uncanny Xmen 137 Phoenix is called the primal force of creation, i've already shown you a quote from Classic Xmen where Phoenix says that everything in creation hasnt not been "touched" by her, recent issues of F4 again accredit Phoenix for the making of creation and all the abstracts( the amount of times ive said this already Synchy tut. tut.) even in Xmen The End Jean says that Phoenix is the perfect tool for jumstarting creation because through her it has a human persective, even in Xmen Forever (which is surprising because it was during the retcon period) Eternity calls Phoenix the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death, the force that in the natural schemem of things destroys everything and then creates it again. In the same series when the Stranger wished to get to the top of the cosmic hierarchy he desired the help of Jean Grey to use Phoenix to end creation early, help him survive the end of all that is (as Phoenix did for Galen who would go on to become Galactus) and after Phoenix made everything again emerge on top as the supreme being. You cool now? I have many more examples please PM me if your inner fanboy is still refusing to let you acknowledge that which is quite apparent to others 😉
""""""""""In denial. That is made apparent by your post here GS. Your understanding of things are really blurry, it is GS. Sandalphon EXPLICITLY stated that Michael is the one who builds and breaks. Meaning he is the one who builds and breaks EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE-----> the WHOLE Multiverse. What now? your actually saying that the term "Primal Force of Creation" suddenly has a different meaning?""""""""""""
You know you're wrong here, but your desire to win this argument (which youre losing very badly in btw) is clouding your better judgement. Others have commented on this fact as well. I'll tell them to post and let you know just how apparent your folly is. Being called 'one who builds and breaks' doesnt make you THE primal force of creation. It really doesnt. I know you can understand that. Phoenix is actually called THE primal force of creation, your example just isnt good enough. I really dont respect your hypocrisy Synchy boy. So i cant say Phoenix the primal force of creation is an aspect of TOAA although explicitly suggested through heavy symbology, parallels, name and deed yet you can say that Michael is the primal force of creation merely because he is called "the one that builds and breaks"? Ridiculous Synchy, simply ridiculous.
""""""""""What a pitiful attempt to bring in Franklin Richards and the Celestials. They created things, sure. But is it everything? No. So how the hell does that label them Primal Force of Creation?"""""""""""""""
Did Michael? No thats right it was a joint effort between him and Lucifer so how can he be called the primal force of creation all unto himself? The ridiculous claims of fanboys. 🙄
""""""""""""""""Lol!!!! you make it seem like Phoenix actually forced TOAA to make her one with everything. Seriously GS, the only reason why Michael and Lucifer wasnt made one with everything in DC is because The Presence decided to not make them. Simple as. I have full confidence that if TOAA wanted to be one with everything, then he'd remove Phoenix's function and make himself one with everything. Again simple as.
It just comes down to their respective God's decisions GS. The Presence decided to not make the brothers one with eveything and TOAA decided to make Phoenix one with everything, thats it. Both can overturn that decision on a whim. It doesnt degrade Lucifer and Michael's power as Lucifer has shown that he's one with everything in his multiverse.""""""""""""""""""""""""
I cant see how you came to see it that way Synchy, youre limited understanding has lead to a misinterpretation therefore rendering your laughter empty and unwarranted. Moving on............
The Phoenix is the primal force of creation and is one with everything and created everything because that is the job TOAA gave it. Youre right. So whats your point? Im not arguing about Phoenix Vs TOAA so what on earth are you waffling about? Youre also right that if the Presence wanted to make Lucifer and/or Michael the primal force of creation and one with it all he could as well. Youre absolutely right there Synchy im proud of you. The simple matter is that Prsence did NOT empower them so. He did NOT make them on the same level as Phoenix. Yes he could empower them more but then so what the same could be said for TOAA. Then it would just be a case of TOAA Vs Prsence which is ridiculous because they are the same being in their respective comic book companies. What a silly point you were trying to make there. Got you nowhere really, what a shame. 🙁
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Prsence saying that there should only be one multiverse does not mean that Lucifers is as important or on the same scale as the proper one.
I wonder why you didnt explain why?"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Would you care to explain how it does?
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""The US not a proper country? oh why oh why GS. I certainly wouldnt miss you explain it coz frankly the US is a proper country. Thats a given, they are one of the most powerful countries, if not the most powerful, in the world, the most technoloy driven and one of the most wealthiest countries, if not the wealthiest, in the world.
And yet you sit there and say theyre not a proper country, theyre not a grand country. uh huh. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Just how old are you? Your understanding is at times abominable. I had never noticed prior to this tutoring session im currently providing for you. Where oh where in any of that paragraph from my previous post did i state that the U.S was not a proper country? I did NOT. I stated that the U.S could invite the worlds population to reside on its shores but that doesnt mean that the U.S on its own is as grand as the rest of the planets continents combined. So how do you get from that statement that the U.S isnt a proper country? You cant. Stop looking for any old excuse to write a paragraph just so it looks to readers like you know what the hell youre talking about. A lot of these paragraphs have been unnecessary and have changed NOTHING. Filler material.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""The name Morningstar has nothing to do with him creating just stars, It has everything to do with everything in existence. Seriously what you said doesnt make sense at all. What is the purpose of enacting his name if it wont flow through something? What is the purpose of enacting his name if its just to create suns and stars? Because when Michael wrote The Presence's name in every atom of existence to keep the DC Multi from collapsing, it was said as "Enacting Yahweh's name, which in turn flowed through every vein, every atom of existence.
And just think about this for a minute. What good is a Multiverse/Universe if no ones holding it together, if there's no essence coursing through it to keep it alive? It will surely collapse, GS. It will collapse. So by basing through that COMMON knowledge, then Lucifer should have his essence running though it, making him one with it to keep his Multiverse from collapsing.
I mean look at the time when he created the gates. We can clearly see that while creating it, his form wasnt of human form anymore. His form was now made of blocks of bubble-like thingy. And we can clearly see that the bubbles where separating from him while creating his gates. The only thing it says, as far as Im concerned, is the bubbles are his essence which was placed on the gates to also become one with it.
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Must i continue to teach you Synchy? I believe im gonna have to start charging for these sessions. My private time doesnt come for free sonny. Here is the original quote you gave me:
""""And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns""""""
Here we go sonny down to business. There are many definitions for the name Lucifer. One of them happens to be "morning star" This is also his surname in his DC comics so you know that DC has acknowledged that definition. Another definition of Lucifer is "light bearer" or "light bringer." This term comes from when Jesus refers to Satan falling like lightning from heaven after being cast out by God. Your quote contains both of these terms so you know that the writer of that particular issue was acknowledging them. In it the "Lighbringer" is enacting (acting out) his name. Lucifers name also means morning star. In the quote Lucifer is creating stars. NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!! 😱
""""""""""""""""""""Another evidence is him saying that he's "The Alpha and The Omega". What does that tell you? And no it doesnt just mean that he's the beginning and the end. Look up the meaning of it.""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
That refers to how he is the origin of his multiverse and he is also its fulfillment its end in the natural scheme of things. Whats your point? So is Phoenix, but Phoenix just happens to be the alpha and omega (as stated in Xmen Forever and New Xmen) of the multiverse proper and Phoenix's essence also courses through the multiverse proper. TOAA actually trusted Phoenix to be so integral with the proper multiverse of Marvel. Lucifer made his side multiverse which you have yet to prove compares in scale and significance to Dc's proper one and also that Lucifers essence permeates it. Lets just say you manage to come up with proof that it does, well Phoenixes does through the actual proper multiverse, TOAA's multiverse which goes to show Phoenixes standing in the hierarchy.
No doubt the inner fanboy within you isnt going to let this be the last i hear from you on this matter, but hey whatever i understand. It must hurt to realise your character just aint what he's cracked up. Good day to you. 😄
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Oh please GS, stop lying to yourself. You and I completely know that its relevant to what were talking about. You said that Phoenix shapes matter with her will. To which I replied that not every Multiverse/Universe is created that way. I gave the example of the creation of the Preacher-verse. To which I ended it by saying that it isnt a fact that Phoenix can do what Lucifer did(shaping everything with pure will) due to the example I gave above.
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Still Syncy what does that have to do with anything? How does that change anything. No you cant say that Phoenix formed creation the same way that Lucifer and Michael jointly formed theirs but whats your point? The same is true in reverse. 🙄 Again i say a wasted effort. Dont you hate it when that happens?
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No, no, no my good friend. At the end of the day Lucifer's and Michael's greatest feat cancels out Phoenix's greatest feat which was creating all LIFE by herself. Michael and Lucifer creates entire concepts such as Time, Love, Happiness, etc. all by themselves
So we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, Oh I dont know, Holding all of reality? A feat Phoenix achieved AND A feat Michael(by writing Yahweh's name in every atom of existence in DC with his demiurgic energy) and Lucifer achieved(by the fact that his Multiverse isnt showing signs of collapsing right now)
So again, we go down to their next greatest feat, which was, I dont know again, maybe placing gates in all of the universes and realities in the Multiverse? And this is where we stop. Because Lucifer has shown the greater feat. Ive already explained it above.
So all in all, GS. Lucifer and Michael edges Phoenix out individually, sorry matey.
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Why are you refusing to acknowledge the obvious Synchy. Ive already dealt with this point in previous posts. Refusing to do so just to win an argument really does little to help your rep or credibility sonny. Take it from one with greater experience as appears to be the case.
In marvel all concepts such as love, hate, even time, space , reality and so on all are embodied by abstracts, they are those concepts. That is the way Marvel does things. Without those abstracts in a universe those concepts dont exist. Just like Beyonder in Secret Wars killed the abstract Death there was no death in the multiverse. Thanos got rid of Eternity in the IG saga and he himself had to become the embodiment of the universe to prevent there being a void. Let me drill this into your skull, those abstracts are those concepts. From the nothingness that is outside the white hot room Phoenix makes creation, the multiverse, all the universe, realities etc. Phoenix for each universe creates the abstracts, she creates those concepts along with creation ending the previous nothingness. Which Phoenix creates in the natural scheme of things anyway as it is the alpha and the omega. It is the primal force of creation that creates everything, maintains everything and eventually brings about the end of all that is, before repeating the cycle.