The problem with Marvel gods is the fact that the hierarchy isn't consistent. It varies from writer to writer. I remember during the Infinity Saga, it was said the Infinity Gauntlet used to be a being who was "all that is", but grew bored and created the abstracts. This being later destroyed the abstracts because among them were people like Mephisto, who was evil. It then committed suicide, which created "everything", including the previously destroyed beings.
In Avengers, Thor, IW and Guardians of the Galaxy, nothing is beyond the Living Tribunal (who is the same in all realities and universes) except TOAA. Phoenix has alternately gone unmentioned or shown as being something of a cosmic garbage man.
In the Fantastic Four, there's a concept of Heaven, presided over by Stan Lee and a far more biblical order than suggested anywhere else.
In the X-men, Phoenix seems to be the source of everything.
In Swamp Thing, the hierarchy is TOTALLY different. Ditto with Ghost Rider.
I give the nod to the DC Brothers because at least they're consistent, lol. And they have better on panel feats.
Originally posted by demigawd
The problem with Marvel gods is the fact that the hierarchy isn't consistent. It varies from writer to writer. I remember during the Infinity Saga, it was said the Infinity Gauntlet used to be a being who was "all that is", but grew bored and created the abstracts. This being later destroyed the abstracts because among them were people like Mephisto, who was evil. It then committed suicide, which created "everything", including the previously destroyed beings.In Avengers, Thor, IW and Guardians of the Galaxy, nothing is beyond the Living Tribunal (who is the same in all realities and universes) except TOAA. Phoenix has alternately gone unmentioned or shown as being something of a cosmic garbage man.
In the Fantastic Four, there's a concept of Heaven, presided over by Stan Lee and a far more biblical order than suggested anywhere else.
In the X-men, Phoenix seems to be the source of everything.
In Swamp Thing, the hierarchy is TOTALLY different. Ditto with Ghost Rider.
I give the nod to the DC Brothers because at least they're consistent, lol. And they have better on panel feats.
Agreed. You make everything sound so simple, demi... 😉
Agreed. The brothers have better on panel feats than phoenix however from whats stated in the comics and by going what is actually shown on panel phoenix is a power to be reckoned with and is certainly placed above them individually. My answer to this topic is no phoenix and the other two could not stand up to both the Dc and Marvel universe and all its characters because there are simply too many powerful beings in both. However one on one Phoenix is certainly capable of defeating anyone from either comic book world short of their respective supreme beings.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It seems dear Synchy that my posts are a bit over your head, because ive dealt with your query about phoenix actually creating existence not only on previous posts in previous threads but also on this thread to. I understand your ignorance you have been overloaded with information after all, which is always a good thing wouldnt you agree? I so wish i could sat the same about your posts. 🙁 oh well.Synchy Synchy there is no contradiction. Its all imagined. Youre very confused, so pay attention and let the GalacticStorm teach the masses:
Synchro lets sort this out once and for all. Youre not debating that Phoenix is one with all of creation are you? No? Good boy. Well I've already told you that in uncanny Xmen 137 Phoenix is called the primal force of creation, i've already shown you a quote from Classic Xmen where Phoenix says that everything in creation hasnt not been "touched" by her, recent issues of F4 again accredit Phoenix for the making of creation and all the abstracts( the amount of times ive said this already Synchy tut. tut.) even in Xmen The End Jean says that Phoenix is the perfect tool for jumstarting creation because through her it has a human persective, even in Xmen Forever (which is surprising because it was during the retcon period) Eternity calls Phoenix the Resurrection force, the assurance of life after death, the force that in the natural schemem of things destroys everything and then creates it again. In the same series when the Stranger wished to get to the top of the cosmic hierarchy he desired the help of Jean Grey to use Phoenix to end creation early, help him survive the end of all that is (as Phoenix did for Galen who would go on to become Galactus) and after Phoenix made everything again emerge on top as the supreme being. You cool now? I have many more examples please PM me if your inner fanboy is still refusing to let you acknowledge that which is quite apparent to others 😉
As I said and will say over again, your repeating the same damn thing over and over and over and over again. The issues youve provided just talks about Phoenix being "the Primal Force of Creation"---> a term whose meaning is debatable due to the discussions were having over it. Those issues does not prove that she created everything
Lets break down one by one all the issues youve given me shall we GS?
In Uncanny X-Men #137 - It is said that Phoenix is the Primal Force of Creation. Well, again the meaning of the term "Primal Force of Creation" is debatable. Look at the Michael example I gave earlier in our debate
In Classic X-Men - Again, all that is "touched" by her or "All that is... I Am" is different than "All is created by me". What Jean said, just shows that she is one with everything. There's no reason to suggest that what she said means that she created everything. Eternity is "All that is... I Am" in a single universe, and by YOUR definition, it means that he's the one who created the universe, not Phoenix? Again a contradiction in your part.
In F4 - This issue proves nothing. I never disagreed with Phoenix creating the Abstracts. And apparently, thats the only thing that was said in that F4 issues. They never said anything about Phoenix creating everything.
In Xmen The End - Another issue that proved nothing. It only said that Phoenix jumpstarted creation. And you should know that the term "jumpstart" doesnt mean that it created everything.
Jumpstart - "The act or an instance of STARTING or SETTING IN MOTION something."
So what that issue suggests is that Pheonix started the creation of the Multi, not created the whole Multi. That issue only further proves that Im right and your wrong. Sorry GS
In X-Men Forever - Exactly. The issue where I referred to. Eternity said that Phoenix is the assurance of Life after Death. Again, the keyword here is "LIFE after death", not "life and CONCEPTS after death".
In the same issue(with the Stranger) - Another issue that proved nothing. Stranger wanted to have Pheonix destroy everything. cool. And wanted Phoenix to remake "everything. "everything" could be intepreted as just creating all life and my theory(earlier) of helping the abstracts(directly or indirectly) create the concepts.
So what did I tell you earlier? it DOESNT prove anything. Heck you didnt even gave me the EXACT issues of most of this so called "proof". Does that mean that you dont have the issues with you right now? If thats the case, then all the more reason for me to not believe you.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm You know you're wrong here, but your desire to win this argument (which youre losing very badly in btw) is clouding your better judgement. Others have commented on this fact as well. I'll tell them to post and let you know just how apparent your folly is. Being called 'one who builds and breaks' doesnt make you THE primal force of creation. It really doesnt. I know you can understand that. Phoenix is actually called THE primal force of creation, your example just isnt good enough. I really dont respect your hypocrisy Synchy boy. So i cant say Phoenix the primal force of creation is an aspect of TOAA although explicitly suggested through heavy symbology, parallels, name and deed yet you can say that Michael is the primal force of creation merely because he is called "the one that builds and breaks"? Ridiculous Synchy, simply ridiculous.
No, I know Im right here. By your own accord, Primal Force of Creation means the one who created everything and is one with everything. Thats what your going by. So I made the example of Sandalphon saying that Michael is the one who builds and breaks, because by basing on that it means that Michael alone created everything. And by giving the example of Lucifer being one with everything in his multiverse, it also meant that Michael has the power to be one with everything had it not been for the Presence.
If you link the 2 examples, then that would mean that Michael is THE Primal Force of Creation, unless you have a new definition of it, which you never bothered to explain.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Did Michael? No thats right it was a joint effort between him and Lucifer so how can he be called the primal force of creation all unto himself? The ridiculous claims of fanboys. 🙄
Yes Michael, in truth, didnt create all of reality all by himself. But because of your overbearing fanboyishness with Phoenix, you completely missed the point(which isnt a surprised btw). My point is, its not a fact that the term "Primal Force of Creation" means that "it creates everything". Thats why I brought Sandalphon's comments. According to him Michael is the one who builds and breaks, only him(which would mean that Michael is THE Primal Force of Creation in DC). But in reality he's not the one true creator of the Multiverse because he needs Lucifer, right? So going by that, How can you say that the meaning of Primal Force of Creation is creating everything, when the example I gave above proves otherwise. Marvel only states that Jean is Primal Force of Creation this, Primal Force of Creation that. They never stated that it means creating everything.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm I cant see how you came to see it that way Synchy, youre limited understanding has lead to a misinterpretation therefore rendering your laughter empty and unwarranted. Moving on............The Phoenix is the primal force of creation and is one with everything and created everything because that is the job TOAA gave it. Youre right. So whats your point? Im not arguing about Phoenix Vs TOAA so what on earth are you waffling about? Youre also right that if the Presence wanted to make Lucifer and/or Michael the primal force of creation and one with it all he could as well. Youre absolutely right there Synchy im proud of you. The simple matter is that Prsence did NOT empower them so. He did NOT make them on the same level as Phoenix. Yes he could empower them more but then so what the same could be said for TOAA. Then it would just be a case of TOAA Vs Prsence which is ridiculous because they are the same being in their respective comic book companies. What a silly point you were trying to make there. Got you nowhere really, what a shame. 🙁
Again, it proves that you understanding of thing is messy. The Presence doesnt need to empower Michael or Lucifer to be one with anything. Theyre TRULY capable of doing it on theyre own. Again, Lucifer being one with his Multiverse is proof enough.
The only reason why The Presence is one with everything in DC and not Michael, not because Michael doesnt have the power to be one with eveything, but because The Presence overrules it.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Would you care to explain how it does?
The Presence sees it as proper and as a big enough of a threat because of the number of people from his Multiverse that can potentially go to Lucifer's Multiverse and ACCOMODATE them comfortably. Ive already told you that Lucifer invited ALL of the beings in the DC Multverse.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Just how old are you? Your understanding is at times abominable. I had never noticed prior to this tutoring session im currently providing for you. Where oh where in any of that paragraph from my previous post did i state that the U.S was not a proper country? I did NOT. I stated that the U.S could invite the worlds population to reside on its shores but that doesnt mean that the U.S on its own is as grand as the rest of the planets continents combined. So how do you get from that statement that the U.S isnt a proper country? You cant. Stop looking for any old excuse to write a paragraph just so it looks to readers like you know what the hell youre talking about. A lot of these paragraphs have been unnecessary and have changed NOTHING. Filler material.
What the hell? If the US INVITED every people in the world, then yes they are as grand and important than every other country because theyre CONFIDENT enough to accomodate all them. I mean they should be confident enough to actually INVITE them.
Which exactly is the case for Lucifer. He invited ALL of the beings from a PROPER Multiverse into his own Multiverse if they dont like Presence's rule. That alone means that Lucifer's Multiverse can accomodate every living being that came from a PROPER Multiverse. You couldnt get any more grander or important than that. Why cant you see that?
Seriously GS. All this latest posts of yours tells me that you know Im right but you still try to stall time so that you can figure out a way to "turn the tides" in your favor. Give it up GS.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Must i continue to teach you Synchy? I believe im gonna have to start charging for these sessions. My private time doesnt come for free sonny. Here is the original quote you gave me: [/B]
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
[B]""""And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns""""""Here we go sonny down to business. There are many definitions for the name Lucifer. One of them happens to be "morning star" This is also his surname in his DC comics so you know that DC has acknowledged that definition. Another definition of Lucifer is "light bearer" or "light bringer." This term comes from when Jesus refers to Satan falling like lightning from heaven after being cast out by God. Your quote contains both of these terms so you know that the writer of that particular issue was acknowledging them. In it the "Lighbringer" is enacting (acting out) his name. Lucifers name also means morning star. In the quote Lucifer is creating stars. NUFF SAID!!!!!!!!!! 😱
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the most horrible explanation Ive ever heard in my whole life. "Morning star" means Lucifer is creating stars? HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, NO. "Morning Star" doesnt mean Lucifer is creating stars(lol!) Morningstar doesnt have a meaning. NOTHING. He just adopted that name when he fell from Heaven. He' s original name is Archangel Samael "The Lighbringer". Again, there's no Morningstar at that time.
When Lucifer's Multiverse was created he did enact his whole name(Lucifer Morningstar, "The Lightbringer"😉. But Morningstar doesnt mean anything. Remember that GS. *sigh*, Im dissapointed GS I thought Ive already taught you a good amount about Lucifer and Michael? But it seems thats not the case. Your not learning well, my student.
Oh, and the fact that you didnt say anything about my other points, shows that you just cant counter it. Im right and your wrong.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm That refers to how he is the origin of his multiverse and he is also its fulfillment its end in the natural scheme of things. Whats your point? So is Phoenix, but Phoenix just happens to be the alpha and omega (as stated in Xmen Forever and New Xmen) of the multiverse proper and Phoenix's essence also courses through the multiverse proper. TOAA actually trusted Phoenix to be so integral with the proper multiverse of Marvel. Lucifer made his side multiverse which you have yet to prove compares in scale and significance to Dc's proper one and also that Lucifers essence permeates it. Lets just say you manage to come up with proof that it does, well Phoenixes does through the actual proper multiverse, TOAA's multiverse which goes to show Phoenixes standing in the hierarchy.No doubt the inner fanboy within you isnt going to let this be the last i hear from you on this matter, but hey whatever i understand. It must hurt to realise your character just aint what he's cracked up. Good day to you. 😄
*sigh* dissapointing. Ok here's the defini....... You know what Ill just quote someone who is omnipotent in our real world about the meaning of "The Alpha and The Omega"
Refer in the Bible, Revelation 1:4-8 :
Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "WHO IS, and WHO WAS, and WHO IS TO COME, the Almighty."
NUFF SAID!!!!!!!
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Still Syncy what does that have to do with anything? How does that change anything. No you cant say that Phoenix formed creation the same way that Lucifer and Michael jointly formed theirs but whats your point? The same is true in reverse. 🙄 Again i say a wasted effort. Dont you hate it when that happens?
I responded because of this:
Phoenix provides the matter, phoenix alone SHAPES IT into the planets and constellations, phoenix creates the abstracts, phoenix is one with its creation, its essence permeates all that is. End of.
You say that as if its a FACT that Phoenix shaped it by pure will. I just merely responded thats its NOT a fact.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm Why are you refusing to acknowledge the obvious Synchy. Ive already dealt with this point in previous posts. Refusing to do so just to win an argument really does little to help your rep or credibility sonny. Take it from one with greater experience as appears to be the case.In marvel all concepts such as love, hate, even time, space , reality and so on all are embodied by abstracts, they are those concepts. That is the way Marvel does things. Without those abstracts in a universe those concepts dont exist. Just like Beyonder in Secret Wars killed the abstract Death there was no death in the multiverse. Thanos got rid of Eternity in the IG saga and he himself had to become the embodiment of the universe to prevent there being a void. Let me drill this into your skull, those abstracts are those concepts. From the nothingness that is outside the white hot room Phoenix makes creation, the multiverse, all the universe, realities etc. Phoenix for each universe creates the abstracts, she creates those concepts along with creation ending the previous nothingness. Which Phoenix creates in the natural scheme of things anyway as it is the alpha and the omega. It is the primal force of creation that creates everything, maintains everything and eventually brings about the end of all that is, before repeating the cycle.
Yeah, right. All thoughout our argument the only reason that you gave as to why Phoenix is above the brothers is that Phoenix created everything including concepts while Lucifer and Michael didnt create everything on their own, thats it.
Youve NEVER provided any more reasons as to why Phoenix is above them. Only that one. Youve never dealt with any of the feats that Ive posted.
As for me, I have yet to even bring up another of Lucifer's greatest weapons. His Mind. And also how versatile Lucifer is because he's magic based and Phoenix isnt. Im just warming up dude, if you didnt know.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm You know you're wrong here, but your desire to win this argument (which youre losing very badly in btw)
Originally posted by demigawd Is GS getting owned on this thread? Man, and I missed all the fun!
😄
Just for the record, I didn't post, "Is GS getting owned on this thread? Man, and I missed all the fun!" because I thought GS was losing the debate (it's still very much up in the air). I wasn't paying attention to the debate. I was referring to the whole "blah blah jean blah" thing and the other little pot shots that I thought was funny.
""""""""""""""""""""""Lets break down one by one all the issues youve given me shall we GS?
In Uncanny X-Men #137 - It is said that Phoenix is the Primal Force of Creation. Well, again the meaning of the term "Primal Force of Creation" is debatable. Look at the Michael example I gave earlier in our debate
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
There is a difference between just being a primal force, a force of creation and THE primal force of creation. Phoenix is called the primal force of creation because it is the the force from which all of creation originates, it means phoenix was there from the beginning and it made creation, it is the original source from which all of creation came from. It is the original force dedicated to creation That is the definition of that line. That line alone tells you not that phoenix is one with evrything , but that is responsible for the creation of everything. Your Michael example just isnt good enough it really isnt. Together both Michael and Lucifer have the power to create a multiverse. Together they can accomplish what marvels primal force of creation has and does. Individually there is no evidence of them doing so in the comics or off panel. They were not responsible for the creation of the main multiverse, the 'preacherverse' they are merely powerful beings who together have the capability to create their own jointly. In marvel phoenix is the force that creates, maintains and destroys the main multiverse of TOAA. The fact that Phoenix is called the primal force of creation second only to TOAA tells you that it is the real deal, this tells you that it is right at the top of the hierarchy where a force with such a role should be. Just like Michael and Lucifer are second to the presence and jointly have the power to create a multiverse, so to does phoenix in marvel, but singlehandedly.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In Classic X-Men - Again, all that is "touched" by her or "All that is... I Am" is different than "All is created by me". What Jean said, just shows that she is one with everything. There's no reason to suggest that what she said means that she created everything. Eternity is "All that is... I Am" in a single universe, and by YOUR definition, it means that he's the one who created the universe, not Phoenix? Again a contradiction in your part.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The issues of classic Xmen you need to read are 8, 42 and 43. You havent quite got it right. Phoenix says that ""all that is I am"" which as you know is referring to her being one with everything. Phoenix also says that """all that is isnt not touched by her"" which can be taken as either again she is one with everything and her influence and power extends over all, or you can take it as there isnt anything in creation that phoenix hasnt had involvement with. You're quite correct Eternity is the embodiment of everything that is in a universe the stars, the matter, energy etc he is an actuality, one single reality. He is the embodiment of that, all of those things made flesh. It does NOT for one second mean that he created all of that, (where did that come from? I havent said that you've just not taken in my points properly, but im about to show you where you went wrong and also what you havent taken into consideration, but more on that later) , but just that he is all of that so it is far from a contradiction on my part but instead both a misinterpretation and misunderstanding on yours.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In F4 - This issue proves nothing. I never disagreed with Phoenix creating the Abstracts. And apparently, thats the only thing that was said in that F4 issues. They never said anything about Phoenix creating everything."""""""""""""""""""""""2
If you read my arguments properly then you would see that i said the issues of F4 state that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts in existence, all of creation. What you're forgetting to acknowledge Synchro is that eternity is the embodiment of a universe, he is everything within that universe as previously mentioned, he is also a creation of phoenix. A multiverse is made up of many, many universes, many, many eternities. Abstracts are just marvels way of doing things, accept that Synchro, it says nothing negative about Phoenix at all. If anything its a positive that phoenixes universes arent just lifeless realities but instead sentient beings. Another abstract is Infinity who is eternities sibling. Infinity is the infinite space between eternities matter, his stars, planets and his galaxies. Other abstracts for example are Love, hate, kronos and lord order and master chaos and death. F4 confirms that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of these abstracts and there alternate reality counterparts. Phoenix is indeed responsible for the making of marvels multiverse.
""""""""""""In Xmen The End - Another issue that proved nothing. It only said that Phoenix jumpstarted creation. And you should know that the term "jumpstart" doesnt mean that it created everything.""""""""""""""""""""
It sure does Synch, you just misunderstood what i was trying to show you, i guess i should have spelled it out. I am well aware of the meaning of jumpstart. This was merely a smaller part of the picture i was trying to paint for you, showing just how phoenix far phoenix is involved with creation and that it comes from many, many sources. You already know that phoenix is responsible for the creation of all of the abstracts in existence, those which embody the physical matter of a reality, the infinite space in between, concepts such as love and hate, death and time etc My quote was merely to show you that phoenix initiates the first spark and as you now know, goes on to fully create the rest of existence, everything outside the white hot room.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In X-Men Forever - Exactly. The issue where I referred to. Eternity said that Phoenix is the assurance of Life after Death. Again, the keyword here is "LIFE after death", not "life and CONCEPTS after death".
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
What are you going on about? The abstracts are sentient beings they are a form of life(life also refers to that which are perecived have its own distinct existence, not just fauna and flora Synchy lol), it is marvels way. This is just another part of the picture i was painting for you. Not intended to prove everything all by its lonesome. Think outside of the box sonny. What Eternity was talking about is that after the end of all that is, which phoenix brings about, resulting in nothingness, phoenix remakes creation, it remakes the universes( the eternitites who just happens to be an abstract Synchy) and everything else. Phoenix is the assurance of that.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""In the same issue(with the Stranger) - Another issue that proved nothing. Stranger wanted to have Pheonix destroy everything. cool. And wanted Phoenix to remake "everything. "everything" could be intepreted as just creating all life and my theory(earlier) of helping the abstracts(directly or indirectly) create the concepts. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I dont quite know if youre purposely being stubborn or youre really not comprehending both what im saying and/or the way of marvel. The abstracts do NOT create those concepts for goodness sake, they ARE those concepts. They are the living embodiment of those concepts. If those abstracts are killed then that which they embody is absent from that reality. Hence my earlier example of when the Beyonder killed Death and then nothing could die. Or when Thanos got rid of Eternity and he had to become the embodiment of the universe to fill the void. It is already established that phoenix created those abstracts and so brings about these concepts with their creation. Your theory is very wrong its an established marvel thing whatever you say or think will not change that. Please PM someone to ask if need be just stop this folly Synchy.
"""""""""""""""""""""
No, I know Im right here. By your own accord, Primal Force of Creation means the one who created everything and is one with everything. Thats what your going by. So I made the example of Sandalphon saying that Michael is the one who builds and breaks, because by basing on that it means that Michael alone created everything. And by giving the example of Lucifer being one with everything in his multiverse, it also meant that Michael has the power to be one with everything had it not been for the Presence.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Michael and Lucifer arent responsible for the creation of the proper multiverse are they? But merely Lucifers side one which was a test by the Presence. Therefore neither of them are the primal force of creation. Jointly they can create a multiverse like the phoenix can, however they are not responsible for the creation of everything beyond the white hot room, or heaven in Dc terms. They are not the origin, the source from which all life in the proper multiverse came from. It seems in DC that the persence hasnt assigned this role to any outside force he does it himself. Michael and Lucifer are just his favourites who have the power together to do similar things. However neither of them are the primal force of creation. Michael is the one that builds and breaks, fair enough he along with Lucifer can build a multiverse however they are not the primal force of creation ok?
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Yes Michael, in truth, didnt create all of reality all by himself. But because of your overbearing fanboyishness with Phoenix, you completely missed the point(which isnt a surprised btw). My point is, its not a fact that the term "Primal Force of Creation" means that "it creates everything". Thats why I brought Sandalphon's comments. According to him Michael is the one who builds and breaks, only him(which would mean that Michael is THE Primal Force of Creation in DC). But in reality he's not the one true creator of the Multiverse because he needs Lucifer, right? So going by that, How can you say that the meaning of Primal Force of Creation is creating everything, when the example I gave above proves otherwise. Marvel only states that Jean is Primal Force of Creation this, Primal Force of Creation that. They never stated that it means creating everything. """"""""""""""""""""""""
Ive just explained to you more fully what the primal force of creation is, Michael or Lucifer are neither, they are powerful beings who can emulate some of the forces feats together however they are not the source or origin from which all life, all reality of the proper multiverse came from.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Again, it proves that you understanding of thing is messy. The Presence doesnt need to empower Michael or Lucifer to be one with anything. Theyre TRULY capable of doing it on theyre own. Again, Lucifer being one with his Multiverse is proof enough.
The only reason why The Presence is one with everything in DC and not Michael, not because Michael doesnt have the power to be one with eveything, but because The Presence overrules it.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
You still have yet to prove Lucifer is one with everything in his multiverse so you cant really say that. The prseence is one with everything in Dc because he/it retains the role of primal force of creation in DC he hasnt made an entity to fulfill that job description as TOAA has in Marvel. Michael even if he could become one with the presences multiverse isnt really saying much when under his own power he cant create a multiverse. You need to prove Michael can even do that in the first place and even if he did it doeant change anything, he or Lucifer arent the primal force of creation and individually they cant create a multiverse.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""What the hell? If the US INVITED every people in the world, then yes they are as grand and important than every other country because theyre CONFIDENT enough to accomodate all them. I mean they should be confident enough to actually INVITE them.
Which exactly is the case for Lucifer. He invited ALL of the beings from a PROPER Multiverse into his own Multiverse if they dont like Presence's rule. That alone means that Lucifer's Multiverse can accomodate every living being that came from a PROPER Multiverse. You couldnt get any more grander or important than that. Why cant you see that?
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The bigger,grander, more complex something is, the harder it is to form, the more energy it takes to make. My example with the U.S was to show that even though the U.S probably has the room to accommodate the rest of the worlds population, that doesnt mean the U.S is as big, or as complex a land mass, or as powerful as the rest of the worlds nations combined into one. Until you have proof a scan for example that says something like, lucifer created a multiverse just as big, or bigger than the presences one, then you have lost on that point.Lets just move on Synchy.
Right Synchro im going to post your quote again and im going to break it down for you as much as i can. Ive studied English literature to a high level you obviously havent from your comments. There is no evidence at all supporting what you claim the following quote means:
"""""""""""""""""And in another place, the Lightbringer turns on new-minted wings. ENACTING HIS NAME, weaving the luminous clouds-stuff of a new cosmos into suns""""""""""
The quote says the LIGHTBRINGER turns on NEW MINTED WINGS. Ok? Lightbringer is another name for Lucifer that comes from the time when jesus was explaining how God took away Lucifers wings and cast him out of heaven with a blazing flash. Jesus says that Lucifer fell like lightning hence the term lightbringer. Lightbringer is used cleverly here as its not only referring to that incident but also how Lucifer is in the process of creating a star and so bringing light. As for the new minted wings, to mint something is to form something newly. This is linking back to Lucifer having his wings taken by God when he was cast out, well now this quote is saying he's turning on his newly formed wings. Wings that he's got since that incident. (Whether or not that biblical event occurred in the Dc comic is irrelevant, the writer is merely acknowledging the history behind the Lucifer character) The quote then goes on to say that he is eneacting his name. Enacting something is to act it out. Lucifers name means both Morning star and also light bringer. So to act out his name would be to bring light. Lucifer is at the time creating suns. Ther really is no debating this. Its simple enough if youve studied english literature.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
*sigh* dissapointing. Ok here's the defini....... You know what Ill just quote someone who is omnipotent in our real world about the meaning of "The Alpha and The Omega"
Refer in the Bible, Revelation 1:4-8 :
Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.
So shall it be! Amen.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "WHO IS, and WHO WAS, and WHO IS TO COME, the Almighty."
NUFF SAID!!!!!!!
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
All that means in reference to Lucifer or Michael is that theyre constants. That they were there in the beginning and that they will be there in the end. Same with Phoenix. However we've now already established that they re NOT the primal force of creation. This changes nothing. All you've done is flesh out my previous explanation.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Yeah, right. All thoughout our argument the only reason that you gave as to why Phoenix is above the brothers is that Phoenix created everything including concepts while Lucifer and Michael didnt create everything on their own, thats it.
Youve NEVER provided any more reasons as to why Phoenix is above them. Only that one. Youve never dealt with any of the feats that Ive posted.
As for me, I have yet to even bring up another of Lucifer's greatest weapons. His Mind. And also how versatile Lucifer is because he's magic based and Phoenix isnt. Im just warming up dude, if you didnt know.
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
What Phoenix has above the brothers individually is that it created exsitence singlehandedly whereas they require each other. It is now quie clear that the brothers arent the primal force of creation in DC as Phoenix is in Marvel, they are merely incredibly powerful beings who together have the power to create a multiverse, however they are not the origin of everything beyond heaven or in marvels case of creation beyond the White hot room. Phoenix is also one with all of creation, she is the heart and soul of it all which is why she is referred to as tipeherth(look it up) her essence permeates it all and she has power over it all. Over the proper multiverse not a side creation.