Originally posted by Jack O'Neil
He's not that smart? Vader was an excellent leader and ruthless and the rebels feared him.
This is rather subjective, really.
Vader was smart, but had no common sense and was lacking in wisdom.
As for being an excellent leader, he once was a general in the Clone Wars, but after ROTS he is merely the Emperor's voice and presence abroad. He does not lead troops like a real "excellent leader" would, and he tends to kill talented officers at a whim. Hardly redeeming.
Second, ruthless (like everything else you posted up there in an attempt to save Vader's KMC image) doesn't mean smart. Dogs can be ruthless.
And the rebels didn't fear him any more than they feared Tarkin. In fact, Leia pretty much showed how much fear both instilled in her, which was NONE.
I don't recall any Rebel troops wetting their pants because Vader was around. Hell, even Han Solo first thing tried to shoot the guy.
you forget that in shadows of the empire vader is very near to fully healing himself with the force he is still potentially the strongest force sensitive his midi chlorien count does equal or even beat master yodas so potentially with time he would have become the greatest and most powerful jedi if he didnt fall
Originally posted by Ianus
Is this why he writhed and suffered under Sidious' lightning while Yoda caught it with his BARE HANDS? Please... don't be silly.
The same would happen to Yoda if he wasn't fighting Sidious.
"I will not fight you."
Luke was hoping that through seeing himself suffer, Anankin would remerge.
P.S.-Don't know what this helps with but Luke lasted a lot longer against Sidious' lightning then Mace did. That short burst of lightning killed Mce before he hit the ground.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
The same would happen to Yoda if he wasn't fighting Sidious."I will not fight you."
Luke was hoping that through seeing himself suffer, Anankin would remerge.P.S.-Don't know what this helps with but Luke lasted a lot longer against Sidious' lightning then Mace did. That short burst of lightning killed Mce before he hit the ground.
Palpatine was aiming to torture Luke, not kill him. Whereas he was trying to kill Windu.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
The same would happen to Yoda if he wasn't fighting Sidious."I will not fight you."
Luke was hoping that through seeing himself suffer, Anankin would remerge.P.S.-Don't know what this helps with but Luke lasted a lot longer against Sidious' lightning then Mace did. That short burst of lightning killed Mce before he hit the ground.
Why do you think the lightning killed mace? Lightning didn't kill anybody in the movies that I can see. I would think that falling killed mace, since he was still screaming when he fell.
Originally posted by Darth Traya
Palpatine was aiming to torture Luke, not kill him. Whereas he was trying to kill Windu.
yea that line, "now young skywalker, you will die." kind of threw us off at first, but now that you said it, its crystal clear that he didn't want to kill him.
p.s. thanks for the grammer lesson.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
yea that line, "now young skywalker, you will die." kind of threw us off at first, but now that you said it, its crystal clear that he didn't want to kill him.p.s. thanks for the grammer lesson.
That's okay. If you need more, just ask me.
Anyway, look at Palpatine's face, he looks like he wants to toy with Luke, not kill him. And then he says "Only now at the end do you understand", then he's about to zap Luke with his full power and Vader picks him up and throws him down the reactor core.
When GL said Luke was the most powerful at the time of ROTJ, I think he was referring to JEDI, not Sith. It seems clear Palpatine is the most poweful Sith. And yeah, if Palpatine wasn't the more poweful at the time of ROTS, why would Yoda need to go into hiding? It seems clear that he and Obi Wan had to wait for the new hope (namely Luke) to come to fruition before taking on the Emperor again. Anakin/Vader has the highest midi-chlorian count, but he is physically messed up at the end of ROTS, (which is why Palpatine is eager to take on Luke as new apprentice). Finally, there are many different factors as to why a lesser Jedi or Sith might win a fight to a more powerful one. One might be a father's love, or the unexpected. The Emperor's weakness/ blindness is that he can't see the good in Vader/ Anakin, but Luke can; and that is Palpatine's undoing. So he gets king-hit. Obi Wan and Yoda are waiting for Luke to reach his full power so they can destroy the Emperor and Vader. The only mystery is why Yoda would have to depend on Luke for that? (even him accompanying Luke on the task would have made more sense) when it seems clear Yoda is more powerful than Luke (lifting Luke's X-wing). Also, as the Emperor is more powerful than Vader, I don't see why the crucial thing is for Luke to kill Vader, not for the good triumvirate to kill the Emperor. I guess the idea is that Obi Wan and Yoda are getting older, as is Palpatine. But it still doesn't make much sense. Different factors go into who is most powerful. Love itself can be considered a power (I know, echh!, but it's true - that was the message of ROTJ). Inexperience can be considered a weakness even if you have the highest midi-chlorian count. And Vader's an old man, half machine, by the time of ROTJ, Luke gets the better of him. Vader throws Palpatine down the shaft, but only thru inspiration from his son (love), in a sense, it's a collective effort, as GL says "we are redeemed by our children." So all things considered, at the time of ROTJ, I would put the ranking as:
Palpatine
Yoda
Luke
Vader
OK, first off, i didn't say he was trying to kill before he said that, but he fried Luke's ass for a good little minute before Vader tossed him down the reactor core. But i guess that would be pretty obvious to those of you with eyes AND brains. If you want to get THAT technical, time it and you'll find that he shocked luke about the same amount as he did Mace. So there's no real difference after that point. But I'm sure you'll find something else to argue about, just to be you're cool little selves.